Seniors and Ego

[celticgyan]

Why was it that the only time I saw Seniors (thats the big ones rather than centre sisters), the only thing they appeared to be interested in was giving you a bollocking for not attending class or not devoting enough time etc.

Are Seniors beginning to behave like Gurus? Is ego taking over? I had that experience in London followed by a group of Indian sisters who thought I was nothing more than a Taxi driver!

Baba says that ego will be the final thing to conquer and we all have it. However, being a Senior with power must be difficult since any power corrupts.I say this with some humilty - I know I have many problems myself and am not just picking on them!

C.

[fluffy bunny]

"Love, peace and enlightenment? Yes sir, step this way! ... What is that? You don't want to follow gurus? That is fine, sir! Our gurus are not gurus and, indeed, our top guru says, "do not follow bodily gurus" ... See, there is your proof!"

Are Seniors beginning to behave like Gurus? Is ego taking over? I had that experience in London followed by a group of Indian Sisters who thought I was nothing more than a Taxi driver!

Its interesting. You know the old Murli quotes, "you do not follow bodily gurus etc"? As BK, we were arrogantly led to believe that this did not aply to us and that we were superior to those stupid bhagats and their gurus outside the Yagya etc ... I was always a little uncomfortable with that as I thought their was a hell of a lot of sucking up to the Kripalani Klan and if it was not Bhakti, then surely sisters were in love with them.

Well, the funny thing is ... it seems is the PBKs reckon that all the critical Murli points refer NOT to the outside world but the inside Yagya world. So when BapDada say, "no bodily gurus" what he is actually say is "those bodily gurus inside the BKWSU". So His answer to your question is, YES! Look at the Tamp BKWSU thread with this BK Naina running some woman's life for her. No wonder the BKs are ****** at the PBKs for pointing that one out! But it is basic psychology. The psychotic sees faults in others rather than looks for fault within the self.

Its the "No-Guru Guru System" (Oh, and BB's not a Guru either - denial). The same human foible that Krishnamurti was dragged into. But, the BKs have turned it into a mutli-level marketing Franchised system. "You follow us and do what we say and You, Too can be a BK No-Guru Guru in your town or city ... all it costs is all of your life payable in easy installments until death". And, yes, the sisters are used to brothers lifting boxes and being taxi drivers. At least in lokik life you might get laid for doing it; in Gyan, you have to wait 2,500 years! ;-)

Q: I am confused about what path to follow. There are so many gurus and self-appointed teachers. Some of them have amazing and attractive personalities. They seem to speak with authority. They walk and talk with such confidence.

Krishnamurti's Answer: There are so many gurus in the (BK) world, the hidden ones and the open ones. Each of them promises that, through conformity to a certain system or method, the mind will arrive at that realization of what truth is; but no system or method -- which implies imitation, conformity, following, and thereby fear -- has any significance whatever for a mind that is enquiring into this whole question of life, a question which needs such a delicate, highly sensitive intelligent mind.

The guru is supposed to know and you not to know. He is supposed to be far advanced in evolution and has therefore immense knowledge. And you, who are down below, are gradually going to come to that highest form of knowledge. This whole hierarchical system - which exists not only outwardly in society but also inwardly and among the so-called gurus - is obviously, when one is enquiring into what is truth, an illusion.

There is no path to truth. There is not your path or my path. There is no Christian way to it, or Hindu way to it. A 'way' implies a static process to something which is also static. There is a way from here to that next village, the village is firmly there, rooted in the buildings, and there is a road to it. But truth is not like that, it is a living thing, a moving thing and therefore there can be no path to it, neither yours nor mine nor theirs.

To proceed with this problem, to learn, to see, there must be the quietness of a mind that is not broken up, that is not torn apart, that is not tortured. If I want to see something very clearly, the tree, or the cloud, or the face of a person next to me, to see clearly without any distortion, the mind must not be chattering, obviously. The mind must be very quiet to observe, to see. And the very seeing is the doing and the learning. (J. Krishnamurti)

My words in red!

[joel]

"Love, peace and enlightenment? Yes sir, step this way! ... What is that? You don't want to follow gurus? That is fine, sir! Our gurus are not gurus and, indeed, our top guru says, "do not follow bodily gurus" ... See, there is your proof!"

Yes, our gurus (or ex-gurus) are not gurus, because compared with the whole world of Iron-Aged gurus, ours are the only ones who are truly selfless. If we are a family, then surely the relationship is not one of guru and follower. Even if it walks and quacks like a duck, it is not a duck. It is not a duck because we see each other as souls, all equals, except when giving/receiving Shrimat.

[sparkal]

This lark of treating people (brothers in particular) as taxi drivers is obscene. I cannot see how it can possibly help any "brother" to be treated in this way just to maybe crush his ego. It is simply not on, by arrogant default at least. It is up to the individual to transform their own ego, Seniors included.

The male ego has been used as an excuse for too much bad behaviour among "sisters", (all body-conscious terms brother/sister).

[alladin]

I am quoting what BK ti-Pit said in his post of 17th Aug on the Jayanti topic in the BK forum because it seems that this could be a more appropriate location to discuss about; obedience!

As far as I am concerned Baba may sometimes say something that could suggest that the instructions from the Dadis are equal to Shrimat but he also says that this is not a question of blind faith, that we should churn the knowledge and think for ourselves and judge if what he says is right or not. He also says not to follow parmat.

So it is up to me to discern if Dadi's request is according to Shrimat or not. If my conscience feels uncomfortable about it, then it is definitely questionable. To think otherwise and hand over my power to discern and judge to someone else is very dangerous and can be very harmful, as many have experienced.

I understand and agree with what brother Pit said, however, how does a BK, especially a new one, cope with the pressure he constantly receives from the Murlis, SS and teachers to conform and be obedient to instructions without questioning? As if Shrimat is untouchable and leaves no space at all for the free interpretation the brother was suggesting and the alternative is parmat or manmath, which are both harmful paths for the soul to follow?

[bkdimok]

how does a BK, especially a new one, cope with the pressure he constantly receives from the Murlis, SS and teachers to conform and be obedient to instructions without questioning?

Dear soul, Om Shanti. It's up to me. I can decide by myself whether i need to follow somebodies advice (even if it is Srimat) or not. If i want any instructions from somebody, i will be obedient to the "pressure" of these instructions. If i don't want - i won't listen. Everyone has his own will and power to discern.

Shankar

[alladin]

True, this is the "numberwise". Kings do not obey much. But they should also protect weaker souls from abuse. Maybe this is why we are active on the Forum.
Love+peace+good vibes

[abrahma kumar]

True, this is the "numberwise". Kings do not obey much. But they should also protect weaker souls from abuse. Maybe this is why we are active on the Forum.

Alladin, I bet you never imagined that Shiva Himself would join the forum. His was the post before yours. Its an open secret on the form since today.

[bro neo]

I remember when a Dadi came and visited my country, my SS had everyone serving the Dadi and her entourage hand and foot. I was also doing my little monkey boy dance of complete obedience. I was standing next to the dinning table and one of Dadi’s entourage very rudely and almost belligerently ordered me to give her the salt. Her action and demeanor took me by surprise as she was the only one eating and I was doing something else. It was an unpleasant feeling. This is definitely not the only occasion where a SS had been rude to me for no particular reason.

The Murlis are chalked full of Yuktis on how to be sweet and co-operative but why do so many SS not obey. I think the main reason is not because they are evil, but because they are just, well, to put it bluntly, stupid. They are too dense to recognize the importance of politeness and the Yuktis go in one ear and out the other. Then again, a lot of the Yuktis, at least when read in English, are extremely co-dependent, which is a breading ground for malcontent. Another reason for their rudeness is definitely learned behavior; others do it to them so now they do it us.

At the start of my BK days I certainly put the SS on a pedestal. When I finally allowed myself to see they are just as human as anyone else this was one of those serous foundation breakers in my BK life. I realized my own fault and just focused on making myself better, on developing stronger emotional boundaries. This self-development helped me to learn more and then to finally see flaws in their core teachings as well.

In regards to orders given by SS, if I remember correctly, the Shrimat was to obey without question and Baba will take care of the result. Assuming that Baba is almighty God of karma then everything is dandy. If Baba is not the almighty master of all action and reaction, then get ready for a poop storm. Talk about co-dependent! Also from the Murli was, if you don’t want to follow any potential orders from the SS, don’t ask and just do what you think. This was one of those back doors that led to independence and personal responsibility that perhaps BapDada forgot to lock.

[fluffy bunny]

Also from the Murli was, if you don’t want to follow any potential orders from the SS, don’t ask and just do what you think.

To which I would add ... always sit next to the door and be the first out of morning class right after the musak stops.

[john]

In regards to orders given by SS, if I remember correctly, the Shrimat was to obey without question and Baba will take care of the result.

I keep hearing (or reading) this a lot on the forum, yet, where has it come from? I can not remember reading it in Murli. Is it just something the SS slipped in under the mat and everyone presumed it was Shrimat?

Also from the Murli was, if you don’t want to follow any potential orders from the SS, don’t ask and just do what you think

I haven't seen this. Yet it does make sense. If you don't want to follow their advice or wont like it why bother asking. I never did :lol:. I do understand the power or hold they have though. I never liked it. My gut feeling told me it was wrong but, in true obedient BK fashion, I always thought I was the one in the wrong and had to change to fit in.

[alladin]

Hi, folks, I enjoyed reading your posts. Neo, you describe perfectly situations we all found ourselves in and provided some explanation. Would you be so kind to expand a little on the following point you wrote?

Then again, a lot of the Yuktis, at least when read in English, are extremely co-dependent, which is a breading ground for malcontent.

I also heard many times about

"the Shrimat was to obey without question and Baba will take care of the result. "

Both in Sakar and Avyakt Murlis. If you connect it to other "guarantees" and "insurances" we get in the package such as; "there's benefit in every scene of the Drama, everything is a lesson, Baba will put everything right", "there can be no harm for Baba's obedient children at the Confluence", we can understand why we trusted SS's instructions a lot - at least initially!. It was like jumping off a cliff in the ocean pinching our nose and not looking.

If an acrobat jumps and finds out the net missing, he will break his bones. If lucky enough, not to die. And next time, he will take got injured more seriously. That was enough to take the SS off their pedestal and use our discrimination power more.

As it has been discussed in other topics, we are facing a belief in belief. Given guarantees that cannot possibly be as such. When you find yourself uneducated, unemployed, sick, lonely, depressed, old, dropped out in society, with your savings given away in charity to the BKWSU and with your relationships with friends and relatives severed; you can only blame yourself. No guarantees and no refunds given. :evil:

Also from the Murli was, if you don’t want to follow any potential orders from the SS, don’t ask and just do what you think. I haven't seen this.

I haven't heard this either!

[joel]

I haven't heard this either!

I've heard and spoken this, but only among my trusted BK friends, when we were exploring what boundaries we want with the BK authority figures.

[bro neo]

During my time as a BK I made it my life’s work to read and inculcate every Murli ever written, ASAP. I bought all the books of English Murli translations I could find; they were like 3$ each. Bargain! Anyways, I estimate that I read between 70-95% of all the Murlis ever published in English and that were sold in book format at Madubhan. Any real BK should do this. BapDada is everything. 1 Baba and none other. Baba was my world. (Murli point.) But when I left the BKs, I also left the country I was living in and ditched all my BK stuff. Everything!

My references to Murlis are from memory, and my memory is by no means photographic but BK life was my every breath when I did it. John, you are charged with finding this Murli point and from which Murli it comes from, your very salvation could depend on it. Check the BK libraries, ask your SS. It will be easy to find. I also remember the Murli point that if a Dadi says to do something, it should be considered Shrimat. Surely it would be easy to find a point about obeying SS in a Dadi Janki class.

A thorough understanding of the concept of co-dependency is priceless in our society. It's unprecedentedly revalent to serious ex-cult and ex-BK discussions. "Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself", by Melody Beattie, is an absolute must read.

Most, if not all the Murli points are based on the foundation that we humans are all pathetic Shudras and are all victims in need of a caretaker. Raja Yoga is a panacea to those who believe it because of its co-dependent nature. The genus of it, as apart from other co-dependent relationships, is that it doesn't say Raja Yoga is our savor and it is this or that; it says that Raja Yoga is everything, especially in accordance with what we need individually. We then do the meditation and stimulate our subconscious to fantasize about what we need. Then we tap into a form of perfection (which we also create our selves, but supposedly is from the BKWSU) which gives us perfect love, protection, self-esteem, security, understanding, companionship, etc.

This co-dependent relationship makes the believer BELIEVE that they have everything they have ever wanted or needed for the price of absolute devotion. The reality of it is that it is a lie which ultimately is seen through by those brave enough to look honestly. When the truth is realized, the price has already been paid in blood. The panacea which was our own property and creation (albeit based on ideas from the BKWSU) vanishes because we still so strongly associate it with the lie. We are left in an afterlife of ... (fill in the blank). Also those who follow Shrimat and whose Yoga is not fanatical enough will probably see more discontent from doing actions they dislike then rewards from a point of light.

As always, I share solely from my own experience and understanding and use the word 'us' because I believe that others probably have gone through similar experiences I did. I definitely do not speak for all other ex-BKs and don't try to.

[john]

My references to Murlis are from memory, and my memory is by no means photographic but BK life was my every breath when I did it. John, you are charged with finding this Murli point and from which Murli it comes from, your very salvation could depend on it. Check the BK libraries, ask your SS. It will be easy to find. I also remember the Murli point that if a Dadi says to do something, it should be considered Shrimat. Surely it would be easy to find a point about obeying SS in a Dadi Janki class.

I do not doubt you have seen it, just that I haven't.

I have my own theory that we are programmed from day one to see the Gyan and Murli in a particular way and that way is according to the state of the BKSWU in the year we joined, as they (or Jayanti) says it is being updated to fit the needs of the world as required. What i was lead to believe may not be the same as someone joining 20 years earlier or 20 years later. The BKSWU is not a constant like we believe God or the truth should be.

In other words we are contaminated from day one, with a wrong view before we even get near a Murli to validate what is being said.

Now, what I am trying to do is start again by deprogramming all the stuff which was feed to me by the BKSWU at the time, that I took as God's unquestionable word, and remove all the stuff which was just SS bunkem, nonsense or stuff they just for whatever reason made up. Facts from the Myths.

Which is why I think we need Murli to be able to tally every single thing the BKs are now trying to preach with what was actually said by Shiva (through BB) at the time.
That I believe is the real reason they are hiding and changing Murlis, they don't want anyone to do that.

I bought all the books of English Murli translations I could find; they were like 3$ each. Bargain! Anyways, I estimate that I read between 70-95% of all the Murlis ever published in English and that were sold in book format at Madubhan.

The books you had, did they have Sakar Murlis (pre 1969, when BB was alive) in them or Avyakt Vani (post 1969)?