The conception of everything being based on libido is like a progeny of the theory of evolution. What Freud has done - he has observed the reality and noted. Yes - the son has sexual desire for the mother, but is this good or bad? Was it always like this? Baba says in this impure world the Father does not leave his daughter with his attitude, the brother - the sister, the teacher the student etc. I believe it won't be like this in the new world.
There is diference between knowledge and ignorance. Science etc. - can it be called knowledge? Observing and noting down/no mater how deeply, correctly etc/is this called knowledge? Knowledge is something new. Something which no one knows and no one can know. That's why only The Supreme Soul Shiva is called knowledgful, and He makes us the same, otherwise all are ignorant and does these - observing and noting down points. They cannot give new points for new consciousness for new world.
Could Sigmund Freud be knowledgeful
Dear brother,
Yes, I was interested in psychology I have passed through Freud, Jung not so deeply ... in a popular way ... yes, these are deep studies theories ... so what ... we know this knowledge ... it does not tell anything knew ... yes, we come to know it better, deeper, we understand our behaviour, some hidden misteries, some secter intersonnection in us and others etc ... so what ... what do we do next ... is there a positive result or a postitive proposal how to change our behaviour ... or do we like it to be like this ... this knowledge cannot be true because it comes from human beings and second it is not good ... truth is good, beneficial, beautiful ... and the human beings who has made it have been impure. Baba says ... looking at the world how can one say it is degraded? Look, the inventions of science ... how can the intellect of man be degraded? ... Computer ... aeroplane ... but there is a difference between pure intellect and clever intellect ... pure intellect gives happiness. Our aim is to purify it and there is only this way of imbibing goldy knowledge in practical life.
And also what can be the benefit of this psychological knowledge. Why is it studied in school? No one says at school, "you are a soul" ... OK ... let it be only a theory ... at least it makes one feel enthusiastic – being a soul. And what can be the benefit one can become a professor in psychology, in an university one can teach others, write book, OK take Nobel award, gain money ... will he gain happiness. Now God has come and teaches us how to be happy. We don’t know. We think happiness is temporary happiness. We cannot enjoy happiness anymore.
And what does this knowledge provokes (Freud's). It states that each man sees each woman as sexual object and the other way. This is exactly the opposite of the Godly knowledge. Godly knowledge teaches seeing one another as souls and not bodies. Not even brothers and sisters. And it teaches unadultery. Connection, relationship only with one. Why should we see everyone as sexual objects?
Yes, I was interested in psychology I have passed through Freud, Jung not so deeply ... in a popular way ... yes, these are deep studies theories ... so what ... we know this knowledge ... it does not tell anything knew ... yes, we come to know it better, deeper, we understand our behaviour, some hidden misteries, some secter intersonnection in us and others etc ... so what ... what do we do next ... is there a positive result or a postitive proposal how to change our behaviour ... or do we like it to be like this ... this knowledge cannot be true because it comes from human beings and second it is not good ... truth is good, beneficial, beautiful ... and the human beings who has made it have been impure. Baba says ... looking at the world how can one say it is degraded? Look, the inventions of science ... how can the intellect of man be degraded? ... Computer ... aeroplane ... but there is a difference between pure intellect and clever intellect ... pure intellect gives happiness. Our aim is to purify it and there is only this way of imbibing goldy knowledge in practical life.
And also what can be the benefit of this psychological knowledge. Why is it studied in school? No one says at school, "you are a soul" ... OK ... let it be only a theory ... at least it makes one feel enthusiastic – being a soul. And what can be the benefit one can become a professor in psychology, in an university one can teach others, write book, OK take Nobel award, gain money ... will he gain happiness. Now God has come and teaches us how to be happy. We don’t know. We think happiness is temporary happiness. We cannot enjoy happiness anymore.
And what does this knowledge provokes (Freud's). It states that each man sees each woman as sexual object and the other way. This is exactly the opposite of the Godly knowledge. Godly knowledge teaches seeing one another as souls and not bodies. Not even brothers and sisters. And it teaches unadultery. Connection, relationship only with one. Why should we see everyone as sexual objects?
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fluffy bunny
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I don't think Freud says we 'should'. I think psychotherapeutical schools 'recognise' that we do and that such impulses become corrupt and perverted. A recognition of what is rather than a proscription of what should be. Do you believe that the whole world should give up thinking and just repeat Gyan?Andrey wrote: Why should we see everyone as sexual objects?
That there are no incidents where psychotherapy is useful? Have any Gyani schools of psychotherapy been developed?
Yes, we do have such vision and we know we do, so where is the new?
The problem is that energy, mind, vision, go to these procreative organs. Sexual desire has such power in us that we cannot control it. Due to weakness of the soul it gets influenced by the organs.
We should take the mind and body under control. The more we chase desire the less reward we get. We are masters over nature. Nature will itself come and bow down to us with the desire to serve us and offer us all types of happiness if we consider ourselves a soul, a master of ourselves, of our mind, and of our bodily organs.
The problem is that energy, mind, vision, go to these procreative organs. Sexual desire has such power in us that we cannot control it. Due to weakness of the soul it gets influenced by the organs.
We should take the mind and body under control. The more we chase desire the less reward we get. We are masters over nature. Nature will itself come and bow down to us with the desire to serve us and offer us all types of happiness if we consider ourselves a soul, a master of ourselves, of our mind, and of our bodily organs.
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fluffy bunny
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I think therapy comes into its place when the soul is in such a state that it needs help untangling itself and moving forward. At this point, it is one's choice or fortune to chose one of the many schools of mental therapy, Freudian being one of the first and primal. it might not be right for everyone.Andrey wrote:Yes, we do have such vision and we know we do, so where is the new?
Just as the body needs help to heal itself through exercise and massage, so does the mind. Perhaps even before it can or should accept Yoga initiation. In theory, at a good spiritual school, the guru would take great care over the choice and timing of each student. I do not believe this happens within the BKWSU. I believe that they are greedy to accept anyone any time and it helps if the students are a little neurotic or mentally unstable. Some argue, and I might agree, that the BKs feed off people who are at a vulnerable stage in their lives.
The BKs, at least, state that BK Raja Yoga is not for people with mental problems, although I remember at least one sister with a mentally handicapped child that met BapDada and I do not remember any checking going on. I have seen sufficient evidence to say that they do accept individuals with obvious and quite severe problems and cause more problems through their influence.
Some mental problems might be chemical imbalances; others psychological caused by trauma or abuse. That is when the involvement of an experience psychiatrist could be beneficial. Other problems might be "psychic" in nature, e.g. curses, possession etc. Hindu-based schools are apparently discompassionate towards any handicaps, e.g. they are bad karma and bad luck to have around or even see. The Hindu atitude is often very primative.
I do not know how either BK school has adopted to such problems and so am open to learning how.
But how will the Freudian or other therapy heal you? It won't tell you you are a soul. It would continue to tell you that the sexual vision you are having - seeing everyone as sexual object is normal and everyone does like this, so don't worry.
It will tell you that if you don't have such vision then it is not normal, you sublime your energy and you'll have a psychological catastrophe in future that will cause you great suffering. All of these are like this ... I understood even some doctor used to have written somewhere that if one does not eat animal's products for 30 days then the critical point comes.
Everyone writes his own opinion. It is just a part of the path of bakti. There is no harm in renounsing the five vices. We are mentally, physically ill because of one reason; only the illnesses of five vices, which have been there in the soul for a long time.
Baba says sanyasis does not teach you to renounce the vices. Sanyasis are the name given for the so-called BKs. They don't teach you to renounce the vices because if everyone does renounce them - where will their bread (of the so-called BKs) come from. I doubt Sigmund Freud could have conquered his vices, so how could his followers do. Knowledge is called when put into practice.
It will tell you that if you don't have such vision then it is not normal, you sublime your energy and you'll have a psychological catastrophe in future that will cause you great suffering. All of these are like this ... I understood even some doctor used to have written somewhere that if one does not eat animal's products for 30 days then the critical point comes.
Everyone writes his own opinion. It is just a part of the path of bakti. There is no harm in renounsing the five vices. We are mentally, physically ill because of one reason; only the illnesses of five vices, which have been there in the soul for a long time.
Baba says sanyasis does not teach you to renounce the vices. Sanyasis are the name given for the so-called BKs. They don't teach you to renounce the vices because if everyone does renounce them - where will their bread (of the so-called BKs) come from. I doubt Sigmund Freud could have conquered his vices, so how could his followers do. Knowledge is called when put into practice.
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fluffy bunny
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Andrey,Andrey wrote:But how will the Freudian or other therapy heal you?
- if you had problems driving an automobile, I would suggest you go to a driving instructor ... not read the Murli and do Raj Yoga.
if your back was weak and you could not sit up straight, I would would suggest you go to a hatha Yoga teacher ... not read the Murli and do Raj Yoga.
if you could not cook, I would enourage you to go to a cooking school ... not read the Murli and do Raj Yoga.
if you could not earn money, I would encourage you to study people that were succesful in business ... not read the Murli and do Raj Yoga.
To suggest that they, the BK or the PBKs are the answer to everything in the word is dangerous lunacy. The sort of dangerous lunacy that I have seen active in the BKWSU.
It is Shrimat that BKs do not officially do counselling, do not become directly involved with other people's problems ... is that not so? OK. A young girl has had a bad relationship with her Father ... she goes out into life and evil men sexually abuse her too young ... she is traumatised and her personality is warped ... she might even enter into Gyan but her habitual subserviance, seeking assurances and inability to assert her self for fear of punishment stop her from progressing at work and even in the Yagya. No one speak to her, no one asks her. She is slowly breaking down inside and becoming inable to cope with life - as I and others have seen BKs do, indeed, this is a story of a few BK made into one - but no one wants to see or believe the signs.
- • So, what does she do and do you do or say?
- • Or is she entitled to go to a specialist that has helped hundred of individuals in a similar situation to over come their issues?
So then, tell me why you or she should not go and see a specialist of the mind and emotions?
Andrey BKs are very strong in giving advice about renouncing vices.Baba says sanyasis does not teach you to renounce the vices. Sanyasis are the name given for the so-called BKs. They don't teach you to renounce the vices because if everyone does renounce them - where will their bread (of the so-called BKs) come from. I doubt Sigmund Freud could have conquered his vices, so how could his followers do. Knowledge is called when put into practice.
Sanyasis are the ones who don't follow the family path and the reason they cannot become pure is that they make their wive's widows. So what I think is being said is that the true path is the family path, not as BKs teach and that is to break up the families, like sanyassis ...
I believe one's faith and Yoga can give us amongst other things, strength and courage to face, but it cannot deal with our immediate karma. To think that God deals with every situation is what religions teach. So when the promise that the religion gives is unfulfilled, the faith is broken. I think it's just as important to understand what God cannot do as it is to understand what he can.
Dear brother ex-l
It is not good to go to a psychiatrist, because you’ll enter as a normal human being ... yes we all have problems ... but these are not experts in mind and emotional matters, because they don’t control their mind and emotions better than anyone else do and don’t have less problems then others, so how can they cure others. ... and we should not be so concerned about the little problems we may have ... and we should maintain our self-respect ... is it correct to seek help from a degraded human being ... and we should never consider ourselves crazy ... we may be but it is all temporarily ... we’ll very soon recover ... and you’ll exit with the certainty you’re definitely crazy ... since childhood ... and you’ll have an exact explanation about what exactly are you crazy in, in complicated terms you would have learned and understood and you’ll be happy with your problem.
The same is to go to a hospital ... you may have a small problem today and to have gone for that and they’ll make you a thorough check to find 100 big problems. It means are they solution ... or health conscious or problem ... or sickness conscious. It is not that we shold hide or avoid problems and solving them ... but it is like what Baba via DL and via Virendra Dev Dixit says that we don’t pour water on every leaf ... we remember the sead and the whole tree receives the water of love ... so we don’t cure everything separately, but we have one general solution for all problems ... it is said also that people make plans ... for years in advance ... and God also comes and makes his own plan at fulfils it and all other plans collapse ... And psychiatrists and doctors don’t make your problem disappear, but make it bigger. They make the small thing big. They are used to the expansion because they don’t know what the essence is. Lokik doctors also are very peaceless ... and these titles, professions are all false, in the new world ... there is nothing like this ... there is no job to do ... no mental or physical problems to solve ... in a recent AV it was mentioned about ParDadi how she used to benefit the doctors.
Could this be knowledge that if you’re sick go to doctor, if you like to drive go to driving instructor ... if you like to become a deity ... then how do you become ... if you like to become everhealthy , everwealthy, everhappy ... then how do you become, if you like to become a king, how do you become ... .who teaches this study and who gives this knowledge ... the knowledge you give ... it is like the knowledge known to everyone ... ask a small child ... .he will teach you the same ...
this new knowledge is for the new world ... it has nothing to do with cars, aching back or weak eyes ... in the new world we don’t go here and there and don’t have connection with many ... we’ll be everhealthy ... .the difference is of day and night ... if you ask someone how to become constantly happy they say ... there is nothing like this ... there is no constant happiness ... there never can be ... .or everyone can give you many different keys like ... .have good wife, good family, good children, good job, success, study, name, fame, money house, car, ... but we say, no we like it to be easy ... everyone can not have these, and definitely not at the same time, he can have wealth, but will lack health, he can have both , but will not have the intellect to enjoy both ... it is like this in this world ... and we like it that it can be for everyone ... .not only for chosen ones ... and we like it constantly ... and he /God/ says there is very easy key and only one key to this /soulconciousness/..no need to go here and there ... no need to have connection with many ... no need to listen to others ... .listen to only me and I guarantee that you ‘ll never fall sick, and your happiness will not go down ... and you’ll have everything you need ... nature will become such a provider that you won’t have to ask for anything ... would you die for this world ...die to this old world ... now if it does not happen at once do you fail to believe ... heaven is not here now ... now we are in hell
It is like we have one controller ... we can have an awareness of Godly student life whilst taking car lessons, etc ... awareness of whom do I belong to whilst having your eyes checked ... .we are not part timers like everything in this world is momentary ... we get eternal benefit to the soul ... we like to have permanent constant connection ... we don’t like to go to doctors anymore ... we don’t like problems anymore ... and Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says we should better use the world Yaad, and it is said in the Murli, because it is easy and we are used to it for many lives ... whatever we see ... we remember ... with whatever we have connection through the organs ... hear ... touch ... we remember ... now we wish to remember only one ... .sit only with you, talk only with you, eat only with you ... whilst doing everything ... we see the old world but don’t see it ..we see a dead world ... we see a new world ... there is an example of a kumari that has been surrendered ... .then taken back from their parents due to a gossip she has been made to practice impurity and taken to a doctor to check ... and she has had such a reaction ... .that the doctor said OK I don’t want to check ... .
You use an example ... but in this example ... the problem is that this girl has been abused ... we like to fix that ... not that she should be abused and we have to fix after that ... .we don’t want to get sick ... it is not that we have to go sick and then get cured ... so we should make effort that all the vices go away from this world.
Souls have accounts of give and take, karmic debts ... .these are there in the BK family, PBK family ... these debts are there created and cleared through the organs of the body ... when through the organs of the body we get all connections connected to one we become pure, healthy, wealthy, happy ... we like everything from one ... .in this impure world a doctor also has impure vision to the patient ... and how do we become everhealthy through connection with one ... health is firstly a matter of the mind and intellect like soul that it becomes firm and constant in faith in the self and in the Father and in the drama and it stops accepting sorrows from others and whatever little accounts may come through the body ... they come and are finished quickly and easily ... and this atmosphere of the mind heals the mind, this peace heals the body too ... and we make only one responsible for ourselves ... we sit in one boat ... and leave the shores ... if he makes me go to hospital ... etc ... whatever I’m moved I move ... .i can die out of pain, but I can not make a sound ... he says don’t go there and I don’t ... it is healthy to belive only one ... otherwise one receives sea sickness putting his faith here and there ... its because we become impure through connection with many ... doctors, instructors, teachers, psychiatrists, our mind and intellect and organs are influenced by each and every company and we get connected to many only due to the accounts from the past ... now that we have knowledge already ... otherwise these connections happen only because of the five vices ... if I there is lust it is uncontrolled – for everybody ... if I’m angry ... I’m angry to all ... so Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit now says lust is one thing and adultery is something else ... in the Murli via DL it is said that even if you have to become impure during the Confluence Age or the Brahmin life then become impure with one wife only ... .and whatever we receive from one we value that ... he can tell us one word, but it has so much more value than hundred words of others ... it is like a man in love ... one glance of the beloved one cannot be compared ... he can see thousands of faces during the day, but in his mind is his one glance from his beloved one ... we become totally dependant ... our happiness depends on one ... .it is said whether you beat me or throw me I’ll not leave you ... we are happy just to be with one ... it is a matter of practical connection. The fact I write you read is that we have some account. That’s why maybe Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit often, initially asks how have you come into the knowledge, because this is also a matter of some account isn’t it.
You try to make BKs the same as PBKs, to show there is no hope in the world, but we also know there is no hope in the world neither here nor there. Please, show where there is hope in the world. And it is not the same, because there /in the BK/ people now are not surrendered to even Brahma Baba, but to some BK. And Shiva can be everything only when he is in a body ... and we can surrender to that ... the way we are instruments and we are corporeal ... this way the one who makes instruments is corporeal ... so there cannot be a lie ... because everyone can claim himself an instrument....i ask you money ... as an instrument ... but the one who is responsible is now practically present and he can say ... no, these are not my children that beg ... we can get checked and verified by one ... because opinion of many clash ... so there is hope in one only. It is not correct to say surrender to Brahma Baba etc ... because we should think of the one who plays part inside ... we surrender to that and we should recognize whom does he play part through – it is the soul of Prajapita – the Father to all human beings..
Further more I came across to this conclusion of mine ... .see ... Baba says I speak to the souls ... to the soulconsious children ... the spiritual children ... these are my ... children ... they are the ones that consider themselves as souls and see others as souls ... so they have spiritual stage ... it is a stage of the intellect and in the Murlis via DL it is said that the intellects are numberwise ... they are gift from God ... so these intellects who can see the soul ... rather than the body ... they see Shiv inside the body ... with the intellect ... these souls can hold the idea of the soul whilst doing everything ... nomatter what happens in the corporeal world they hold the idea of the soul ... so they hold one thing in the mind ... this one thing is thought by one Supreme Soul ... so they believe that only throught this study can there be upliftment to the soul because only one soul is the Supreme Soul – always soulconcious ... then in the drama they develop the habit of maintaining unadulterous relationship ... like in the Chritisanity it is also said we should not have a desire for the woman of another one ... but how do we know which woman is whose ... so they can hold in the intellect that I have one wife ... even if many women come before in from of the eyes of the body the idea of one stays in the intellect ... the other type of souls look the body more and forget the idea ... they get attracted to the physical world of comfort ... whenever they see expansion ... they run there ... the idea is not so important for them ... so they can listen to many and accept many different directions through which the intellect degrades..because they don’t clearly see these idea contradicts ... .and on accepting only one direction the intellect becomes pure. And through listening and accepting versions of human beings who become pure and impure, who can have lower stage of soulconciousness ... we become like them ... that’s why it is said that the souls belonging to the sundinasty will listen to only one and they can grasp the knowledge, because they use their intellect ... they believe in ideas ... others just believe their eyes ... but neither the soul nor the Supreme Soul can be seen through these eyes. Why do we forget to remember?...ask Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit whils clarifaing a Murli of Baba vis DL ... It is because Maya comes in the mind in the form of different human beings with which the soul has had connection from the past 63 births to settle their accounts and these souls-concious children did not have so many connections with many ... because in the Confluence Age they accept only from one ... they accept that true can be only one and can teach that ...
And you gave this example of girl abused ... why ... there are so many examples like this in the world. Why do you not feel compassion to that ...
It depends on what we are interested in ... /where attention goes, energy flows, things grow/ what a priority in life we have ... do we like to become a good driver ... do we care for our illness ... there is no nourishment like happiness ... and there are many ways to heal yourself ... not just lokik doctor ... there is one pill of peace ... for example magic is also something ... it is a power of the mind ... but these are useless thing also ... for example there used to be such a practice ... like chasing bad spirits ... if one is sick ... then it is considered a bad spirit has entered ... he is made to lay on the floor ... many gather around him with fearsome masks ... clappers ... bells ... .and ... start shouting and beating him with sticks and pouring cold water to him ... it is called healing through fear ... or through herbs ... through water, food, fasting ... but the only way is through the mind ... the mind that is thoughtless /with one though about the soul/ emits such vibrations that the body recovers ... and there is no mention of problem in the mind at all ... and the world today is false ... it is so much into the expansion ... people nowadays are encouraged to fall sick because it is also a business ... and one even enjoys being sick ... he has the compassionate looks of other ... he is taken care of ... he has a tv, i-net in the room ... one can observe people are also very happy with their illness, they’ll explain you with great enthusiasm what their illness exactly is and the more complicated and rare it is the better ... now we finish such expansion ... the world is full of unnecessary things ... the world is false, the body is false ... everything changes completely ... small things are made big issue ... don’t get me wrong ... we should do everything needed in this life ... nothing more ... and we are very ordinary in this ... this is it ... ordinary people becoming elevated ... we do everything ... but then what do you put time, energy in ... the fact we care to post and interact and discuss such things ... but then ... what grows in my mind ... the idea of a new world ... or this old world ... new connections of happiness or old connections of sorrow ... everything is the same ... the soul...the body ... the world ... inside...the consciousness becomes different ... .
It was you only that used to talk to karunbk on the other forum isn’t it ... brother what do you expect ... they accept defeat ... in what ...
My point is ... stop playing looser ... because it is what you do ... eyes on BKs ... noting down shortcomings ... hey ... maintain your respect ... if they do wrong then show them what is right ... you all complain about what is not good in the BK, but can you not change this power of complaining to being complete and putting right what has gone wrong ... or maybe ... we are not the ones ... are we ... .the Seniors ... when they change ... we change ...
And this study is not for everyone. If one cannot study why be mad at oneself or others that study. Accept it is not for you, let it go ... become busy with your own business and that’s all.
And yes this place where the soul can heal itself is already opened.
You play administrator telling new people to tell their story and who to post where and what, how to express himself and what to clarify, being very interested in stories of others ... but you never go further and you never told your story. Of course it cannot be obligatory.
Dear Mr. Green,
What is crazy in the world today is the commonly accepted idea of what is normal and what is crazy. It is crazy to be normal and it is normal to be crazy. It’s very normal to desire peace and happiness. It is normal to be stressed and depressed. no one dare says I’m happy I’m OK. Say it and they’ll suspect you and try to take you to a psychiatrist.
Is it crazy to believe that a new world would be better than this one ... who likes this world ... who is peaceful here ... who is happy ... even if there are individuals ... all are not like this so ... we may be rich /in values/...but the idea there are many poor people does not let this richness give us happiness ... and see are we able to feel peaceful if we know that there are such bombs created that could destroy the whole world ... we are constantly tensed /without realizing/ due to this ... constantly alert ... judge if these were not there ready made would the world be more peaceful place ... that’s why we need such happiness that there is no trace of sorrow ... and it should be like this for everyone ... otherwise there would be a trace of sorrow ... is it crazy to believe that people cannot create this world themselves and that God is needed for that ... is it crazy to believe he has come and is doing this ... is it normal to put your faith here a little and there a little ... to separate your heart ... to brake it into pieces and to invest it in lost games of the lost world ... I don’ like this way ... I don’t like confussion in my mind anymore, having no one to trust 100 %...to have no close one, because ... everyone in this world is a giver of sorrow ... better keep him away ... and he is remover of sorrow ... and bestower of happiness ... sou our sorrow should finish now ... yes, we all lose faith it is possible ... this new world ... this Supreme Soul to have come ... and we stop making efforts ... because the world is such it overcomes you ... but now this Supreme Soul has come to make this task successful.
Dear Brother John,
Sanyasis of the outside world – the ones who leave their family do become pure ... in their own way ... so are the BKs who leave their families ... however what is real purity is ... yes whatever you said ... the path of the family ... to live together and be pure ... this is considered impossible by the sanyasis and BKs too have special vison towards couples ... they value singles more ... whilst Baba via VVD values couples more and gives them the responsibility to teach others ... it is because in males and females lust is predominant and for example females will worship single male deity and males will worship single female deity /if we accept BKs are to become deities/, but actually deities are couples ... it is whatever Ravan does..in order to kidnap Sita he first likes to seprate her from Ram. We are all Sitas and there is one Ram. We should not be so stupid as to believe everyone. /the way Ravan pretended to be a beggar and a saint/
BKs may say – renounce the vices but they don’t consider possible ... at least not now in this life ... maybe after we die ... or if there are pure ones ... they are the Seniors ... no one else ... they have been so many years ... in the atmosphere of the center ... so they give more importance to the physical years of the body it has been in Gyan, and physical atmosphere, whilst Baba via DL and via Virendra Dev Dixit says last can go fast and we can be far away with the body, but close with the mind. And insiders will leave, outsiders will take.
Yes, they may ask to renounce the vices, but the one to ask you to renounce them have not renounced them himself ... there is no one pure ... also there is some such attitude ... you know ... no one is pure yet ... so ..we are not too ... and they allow themselves some shortcomings ... its because there is not the practical company of the everpure one ...
Then why are they made to renounce the vices again and again...like on the path of bakti burning Ravan every year ... every year ... they tie physical raky ... whilst as I know Mama Saraswati has given the correct answer when in the Murli Baba via Dl used to ask will you lie a raki she answered that raky is already tied ... .and there are seminars like ... overcoming anger etc ... after many raise their hands in front of Avyakt BapDada at Mt. Abu that they have already renounced and overcomed anger ... so what is this seminar for ... even in the advertisement now there are more negativity ... previously there used to be words ... peace, love etc, now anger, fear ...
Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says that for this study we don’t need anything ... just food for the stomak ... and for this we need two rotis ... we don’t need buildings or titles ... so these souls in position in the BK cannot ask others to renounce vices ... because every bodily being is egoistic..if he tells that ... then he will make his own position shake ... what if others do renounce ... would they need these people in position anymore ... so would they act against their own interest ... they would not, because they are not altruistic, because they are bodily beings and only one soul that has no body is altruistic. And it is also what the sanyasis ask the follower for – first you do worship to me ... then go to temple etc. but they can make others the most as high as themselves ... and all humans have limited capacity ... so we better avoid them so that we don’t limit our capacity ... .and Dadis are not generous enough even to make others the same as themselves ... as Baba via DL and maybe via Virendra Dev Dixit teaches that we should make others the same/equal to ourselves ... no Dadi produces other Dadis, if you get connected to them you cannot become a Dadi, but you’ll have to become a simple student. Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says neither these big personalities can come to take the knowledge ... little personalities come.
It is because before the vices end they come into extreme.
It is not good to go to a psychiatrist, because you’ll enter as a normal human being ... yes we all have problems ... but these are not experts in mind and emotional matters, because they don’t control their mind and emotions better than anyone else do and don’t have less problems then others, so how can they cure others. ... and we should not be so concerned about the little problems we may have ... and we should maintain our self-respect ... is it correct to seek help from a degraded human being ... and we should never consider ourselves crazy ... we may be but it is all temporarily ... we’ll very soon recover ... and you’ll exit with the certainty you’re definitely crazy ... since childhood ... and you’ll have an exact explanation about what exactly are you crazy in, in complicated terms you would have learned and understood and you’ll be happy with your problem.
Is the cliché used by the psychologists ... they’ll look through their glasses, clear their throat and have a compassionate outlook ... nod in agreement ... and start using such complicated words to describe one thing...degradation of the mind..of society ... of the world ... ”yes ... there are many situations like this I have met ... in my practice” ... and you get lost in the personality of the psychiatrist ... but he does not tell you ... that how and when these can finish for everyone forever. And they just put name to your pain, so that the soul can know it better and go deep in it ... but judge yourself if it helps you think about it more or less ... what about if the soul is made into soulconcious soul then it will not think of abuses, past etc ... pain ... emotional ... vanishes ... it will think about the soul ... the Supreme Soul..the Godly knowledge theworld wheel ... they cannot teach you manage your mind and emotions, because only the Supreme Soul teaches this. And they are not altruistic, firstly you’ll have to pay, and the Godly study is for free, then there will be some other loss, because they’ll be egoistic for example arrogant and can harm you even more, because only the one Supreme Soul is altruistic who does not have a body ... all others that has bodies are egoistic. And if the psychiatrist does not practice considering himself a soul and remembering the Father you would better go and benefit him rather than he - you.“habitual subserviance, seeking assurances and inability to assert her self for fear of punishment”
The same is to go to a hospital ... you may have a small problem today and to have gone for that and they’ll make you a thorough check to find 100 big problems. It means are they solution ... or health conscious or problem ... or sickness conscious. It is not that we shold hide or avoid problems and solving them ... but it is like what Baba via DL and via Virendra Dev Dixit says that we don’t pour water on every leaf ... we remember the sead and the whole tree receives the water of love ... so we don’t cure everything separately, but we have one general solution for all problems ... it is said also that people make plans ... for years in advance ... and God also comes and makes his own plan at fulfils it and all other plans collapse ... And psychiatrists and doctors don’t make your problem disappear, but make it bigger. They make the small thing big. They are used to the expansion because they don’t know what the essence is. Lokik doctors also are very peaceless ... and these titles, professions are all false, in the new world ... there is nothing like this ... there is no job to do ... no mental or physical problems to solve ... in a recent AV it was mentioned about ParDadi how she used to benefit the doctors.
Could this be knowledge that if you’re sick go to doctor, if you like to drive go to driving instructor ... if you like to become a deity ... then how do you become ... if you like to become everhealthy , everwealthy, everhappy ... then how do you become, if you like to become a king, how do you become ... .who teaches this study and who gives this knowledge ... the knowledge you give ... it is like the knowledge known to everyone ... ask a small child ... .he will teach you the same ...
this new knowledge is for the new world ... it has nothing to do with cars, aching back or weak eyes ... in the new world we don’t go here and there and don’t have connection with many ... we’ll be everhealthy ... .the difference is of day and night ... if you ask someone how to become constantly happy they say ... there is nothing like this ... there is no constant happiness ... there never can be ... .or everyone can give you many different keys like ... .have good wife, good family, good children, good job, success, study, name, fame, money house, car, ... but we say, no we like it to be easy ... everyone can not have these, and definitely not at the same time, he can have wealth, but will lack health, he can have both , but will not have the intellect to enjoy both ... it is like this in this world ... and we like it that it can be for everyone ... .not only for chosen ones ... and we like it constantly ... and he /God/ says there is very easy key and only one key to this /soulconciousness/..no need to go here and there ... no need to have connection with many ... no need to listen to others ... .listen to only me and I guarantee that you ‘ll never fall sick, and your happiness will not go down ... and you’ll have everything you need ... nature will become such a provider that you won’t have to ask for anything ... would you die for this world ...die to this old world ... now if it does not happen at once do you fail to believe ... heaven is not here now ... now we are in hell
It is like we have one controller ... we can have an awareness of Godly student life whilst taking car lessons, etc ... awareness of whom do I belong to whilst having your eyes checked ... .we are not part timers like everything in this world is momentary ... we get eternal benefit to the soul ... we like to have permanent constant connection ... we don’t like to go to doctors anymore ... we don’t like problems anymore ... and Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says we should better use the world Yaad, and it is said in the Murli, because it is easy and we are used to it for many lives ... whatever we see ... we remember ... with whatever we have connection through the organs ... hear ... touch ... we remember ... now we wish to remember only one ... .sit only with you, talk only with you, eat only with you ... whilst doing everything ... we see the old world but don’t see it ..we see a dead world ... we see a new world ... there is an example of a kumari that has been surrendered ... .then taken back from their parents due to a gossip she has been made to practice impurity and taken to a doctor to check ... and she has had such a reaction ... .that the doctor said OK I don’t want to check ... .
You use an example ... but in this example ... the problem is that this girl has been abused ... we like to fix that ... not that she should be abused and we have to fix after that ... .we don’t want to get sick ... it is not that we have to go sick and then get cured ... so we should make effort that all the vices go away from this world.
Souls have accounts of give and take, karmic debts ... .these are there in the BK family, PBK family ... these debts are there created and cleared through the organs of the body ... when through the organs of the body we get all connections connected to one we become pure, healthy, wealthy, happy ... we like everything from one ... .in this impure world a doctor also has impure vision to the patient ... and how do we become everhealthy through connection with one ... health is firstly a matter of the mind and intellect like soul that it becomes firm and constant in faith in the self and in the Father and in the drama and it stops accepting sorrows from others and whatever little accounts may come through the body ... they come and are finished quickly and easily ... and this atmosphere of the mind heals the mind, this peace heals the body too ... and we make only one responsible for ourselves ... we sit in one boat ... and leave the shores ... if he makes me go to hospital ... etc ... whatever I’m moved I move ... .i can die out of pain, but I can not make a sound ... he says don’t go there and I don’t ... it is healthy to belive only one ... otherwise one receives sea sickness putting his faith here and there ... its because we become impure through connection with many ... doctors, instructors, teachers, psychiatrists, our mind and intellect and organs are influenced by each and every company and we get connected to many only due to the accounts from the past ... now that we have knowledge already ... otherwise these connections happen only because of the five vices ... if I there is lust it is uncontrolled – for everybody ... if I’m angry ... I’m angry to all ... so Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit now says lust is one thing and adultery is something else ... in the Murli via DL it is said that even if you have to become impure during the Confluence Age or the Brahmin life then become impure with one wife only ... .and whatever we receive from one we value that ... he can tell us one word, but it has so much more value than hundred words of others ... it is like a man in love ... one glance of the beloved one cannot be compared ... he can see thousands of faces during the day, but in his mind is his one glance from his beloved one ... we become totally dependant ... our happiness depends on one ... .it is said whether you beat me or throw me I’ll not leave you ... we are happy just to be with one ... it is a matter of practical connection. The fact I write you read is that we have some account. That’s why maybe Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit often, initially asks how have you come into the knowledge, because this is also a matter of some account isn’t it.
Why bad food?ex-l wrote:Now, you might want to read Murli and do Raj Yoga as well ... that is your business ... but neither Shiva nor the Murli is the answer for everything and it would be humility to know their limitation and one's limitations as their instruments. Or do you just sit at home, never go out, stay in your bed,... because the end of the world is going to come and the whole world is impure?
To suggest that they, the BK or the PBKs are the answer to everything in the word is dangerous lunacy. The sort of dangerous lunacy that I have seen active in the BKWSU ...
eat bad food
You try to make BKs the same as PBKs, to show there is no hope in the world, but we also know there is no hope in the world neither here nor there. Please, show where there is hope in the world. And it is not the same, because there /in the BK/ people now are not surrendered to even Brahma Baba, but to some BK. And Shiva can be everything only when he is in a body ... and we can surrender to that ... the way we are instruments and we are corporeal ... this way the one who makes instruments is corporeal ... so there cannot be a lie ... because everyone can claim himself an instrument....i ask you money ... as an instrument ... but the one who is responsible is now practically present and he can say ... no, these are not my children that beg ... we can get checked and verified by one ... because opinion of many clash ... so there is hope in one only. It is not correct to say surrender to Brahma Baba etc ... because we should think of the one who plays part inside ... we surrender to that and we should recognize whom does he play part through – it is the soul of Prajapita – the Father to all human beings..
Further more I came across to this conclusion of mine ... .see ... Baba says I speak to the souls ... to the soulconsious children ... the spiritual children ... these are my ... children ... they are the ones that consider themselves as souls and see others as souls ... so they have spiritual stage ... it is a stage of the intellect and in the Murlis via DL it is said that the intellects are numberwise ... they are gift from God ... so these intellects who can see the soul ... rather than the body ... they see Shiv inside the body ... with the intellect ... these souls can hold the idea of the soul whilst doing everything ... nomatter what happens in the corporeal world they hold the idea of the soul ... so they hold one thing in the mind ... this one thing is thought by one Supreme Soul ... so they believe that only throught this study can there be upliftment to the soul because only one soul is the Supreme Soul – always soulconcious ... then in the drama they develop the habit of maintaining unadulterous relationship ... like in the Chritisanity it is also said we should not have a desire for the woman of another one ... but how do we know which woman is whose ... so they can hold in the intellect that I have one wife ... even if many women come before in from of the eyes of the body the idea of one stays in the intellect ... the other type of souls look the body more and forget the idea ... they get attracted to the physical world of comfort ... whenever they see expansion ... they run there ... the idea is not so important for them ... so they can listen to many and accept many different directions through which the intellect degrades..because they don’t clearly see these idea contradicts ... .and on accepting only one direction the intellect becomes pure. And through listening and accepting versions of human beings who become pure and impure, who can have lower stage of soulconciousness ... we become like them ... that’s why it is said that the souls belonging to the sundinasty will listen to only one and they can grasp the knowledge, because they use their intellect ... they believe in ideas ... others just believe their eyes ... but neither the soul nor the Supreme Soul can be seen through these eyes. Why do we forget to remember?...ask Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit whils clarifaing a Murli of Baba vis DL ... It is because Maya comes in the mind in the form of different human beings with which the soul has had connection from the past 63 births to settle their accounts and these souls-concious children did not have so many connections with many ... because in the Confluence Age they accept only from one ... they accept that true can be only one and can teach that ...
And you gave this example of girl abused ... why ... there are so many examples like this in the world. Why do you not feel compassion to that ...
It depends on what we are interested in ... /where attention goes, energy flows, things grow/ what a priority in life we have ... do we like to become a good driver ... do we care for our illness ... there is no nourishment like happiness ... and there are many ways to heal yourself ... not just lokik doctor ... there is one pill of peace ... for example magic is also something ... it is a power of the mind ... but these are useless thing also ... for example there used to be such a practice ... like chasing bad spirits ... if one is sick ... then it is considered a bad spirit has entered ... he is made to lay on the floor ... many gather around him with fearsome masks ... clappers ... bells ... .and ... start shouting and beating him with sticks and pouring cold water to him ... it is called healing through fear ... or through herbs ... through water, food, fasting ... but the only way is through the mind ... the mind that is thoughtless /with one though about the soul/ emits such vibrations that the body recovers ... and there is no mention of problem in the mind at all ... and the world today is false ... it is so much into the expansion ... people nowadays are encouraged to fall sick because it is also a business ... and one even enjoys being sick ... he has the compassionate looks of other ... he is taken care of ... he has a tv, i-net in the room ... one can observe people are also very happy with their illness, they’ll explain you with great enthusiasm what their illness exactly is and the more complicated and rare it is the better ... now we finish such expansion ... the world is full of unnecessary things ... the world is false, the body is false ... everything changes completely ... small things are made big issue ... don’t get me wrong ... we should do everything needed in this life ... nothing more ... and we are very ordinary in this ... this is it ... ordinary people becoming elevated ... we do everything ... but then what do you put time, energy in ... the fact we care to post and interact and discuss such things ... but then ... what grows in my mind ... the idea of a new world ... or this old world ... new connections of happiness or old connections of sorrow ... everything is the same ... the soul...the body ... the world ... inside...the consciousness becomes different ... .
It was you only that used to talk to karunbk on the other forum isn’t it ... brother what do you expect ... they accept defeat ... in what ...
My point is ... stop playing looser ... because it is what you do ... eyes on BKs ... noting down shortcomings ... hey ... maintain your respect ... if they do wrong then show them what is right ... you all complain about what is not good in the BK, but can you not change this power of complaining to being complete and putting right what has gone wrong ... or maybe ... we are not the ones ... are we ... .the Seniors ... when they change ... we change ...
And this study is not for everyone. If one cannot study why be mad at oneself or others that study. Accept it is not for you, let it go ... become busy with your own business and that’s all.
And yes this place where the soul can heal itself is already opened.
You play administrator telling new people to tell their story and who to post where and what, how to express himself and what to clarify, being very interested in stories of others ... but you never go further and you never told your story. Of course it cannot be obligatory.
Dear Mr. Green,
What is crazy in the world today is the commonly accepted idea of what is normal and what is crazy. It is crazy to be normal and it is normal to be crazy. It’s very normal to desire peace and happiness. It is normal to be stressed and depressed. no one dare says I’m happy I’m OK. Say it and they’ll suspect you and try to take you to a psychiatrist.
Is it crazy to believe that a new world would be better than this one ... who likes this world ... who is peaceful here ... who is happy ... even if there are individuals ... all are not like this so ... we may be rich /in values/...but the idea there are many poor people does not let this richness give us happiness ... and see are we able to feel peaceful if we know that there are such bombs created that could destroy the whole world ... we are constantly tensed /without realizing/ due to this ... constantly alert ... judge if these were not there ready made would the world be more peaceful place ... that’s why we need such happiness that there is no trace of sorrow ... and it should be like this for everyone ... otherwise there would be a trace of sorrow ... is it crazy to believe that people cannot create this world themselves and that God is needed for that ... is it crazy to believe he has come and is doing this ... is it normal to put your faith here a little and there a little ... to separate your heart ... to brake it into pieces and to invest it in lost games of the lost world ... I don’ like this way ... I don’t like confussion in my mind anymore, having no one to trust 100 %...to have no close one, because ... everyone in this world is a giver of sorrow ... better keep him away ... and he is remover of sorrow ... and bestower of happiness ... sou our sorrow should finish now ... yes, we all lose faith it is possible ... this new world ... this Supreme Soul to have come ... and we stop making efforts ... because the world is such it overcomes you ... but now this Supreme Soul has come to make this task successful.
Dear Brother John,
Sanyasis of the outside world – the ones who leave their family do become pure ... in their own way ... so are the BKs who leave their families ... however what is real purity is ... yes whatever you said ... the path of the family ... to live together and be pure ... this is considered impossible by the sanyasis and BKs too have special vison towards couples ... they value singles more ... whilst Baba via VVD values couples more and gives them the responsibility to teach others ... it is because in males and females lust is predominant and for example females will worship single male deity and males will worship single female deity /if we accept BKs are to become deities/, but actually deities are couples ... it is whatever Ravan does..in order to kidnap Sita he first likes to seprate her from Ram. We are all Sitas and there is one Ram. We should not be so stupid as to believe everyone. /the way Ravan pretended to be a beggar and a saint/
BKs may say – renounce the vices but they don’t consider possible ... at least not now in this life ... maybe after we die ... or if there are pure ones ... they are the Seniors ... no one else ... they have been so many years ... in the atmosphere of the center ... so they give more importance to the physical years of the body it has been in Gyan, and physical atmosphere, whilst Baba via DL and via Virendra Dev Dixit says last can go fast and we can be far away with the body, but close with the mind. And insiders will leave, outsiders will take.
Yes, they may ask to renounce the vices, but the one to ask you to renounce them have not renounced them himself ... there is no one pure ... also there is some such attitude ... you know ... no one is pure yet ... so ..we are not too ... and they allow themselves some shortcomings ... its because there is not the practical company of the everpure one ...
Then why are they made to renounce the vices again and again...like on the path of bakti burning Ravan every year ... every year ... they tie physical raky ... whilst as I know Mama Saraswati has given the correct answer when in the Murli Baba via Dl used to ask will you lie a raki she answered that raky is already tied ... .and there are seminars like ... overcoming anger etc ... after many raise their hands in front of Avyakt BapDada at Mt. Abu that they have already renounced and overcomed anger ... so what is this seminar for ... even in the advertisement now there are more negativity ... previously there used to be words ... peace, love etc, now anger, fear ...
Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says that for this study we don’t need anything ... just food for the stomak ... and for this we need two rotis ... we don’t need buildings or titles ... so these souls in position in the BK cannot ask others to renounce vices ... because every bodily being is egoistic..if he tells that ... then he will make his own position shake ... what if others do renounce ... would they need these people in position anymore ... so would they act against their own interest ... they would not, because they are not altruistic, because they are bodily beings and only one soul that has no body is altruistic. And it is also what the sanyasis ask the follower for – first you do worship to me ... then go to temple etc. but they can make others the most as high as themselves ... and all humans have limited capacity ... so we better avoid them so that we don’t limit our capacity ... .and Dadis are not generous enough even to make others the same as themselves ... as Baba via DL and maybe via Virendra Dev Dixit teaches that we should make others the same/equal to ourselves ... no Dadi produces other Dadis, if you get connected to them you cannot become a Dadi, but you’ll have to become a simple student. Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says neither these big personalities can come to take the knowledge ... little personalities come.
It is because before the vices end they come into extreme.
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fluffy bunny
- ex-BKWSU
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- Joined: 07 Apr 2006
- Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
- Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.
Andrey,Andrey wrote:It is not good to go to a psychiatrist, because you’ll enter as a normal human being ... yes we all have problems ... but these are not experts in mind and emotional matters, because they don’t control their mind and emotions better than anyone else do and don’t have less problems then others, so how can they cure others.
what is your own personal experience of psychotherapists?
Your views on mental illness Andrey yet again display a complete ignorance.
In India mental illness is swept under the carpet and generally ignored, certainly not socially acceptable there to have a family member with mental illness.
My best friend who is a practising bk of 15 years is a psychiatrist and doesn't share Andrey's or the bk's views on mental illness (you will still hear BKs saying today that schizophrenia is just possesion by another soul!!!!!). She knows very well it is imperative that such conditions need to be treated very seriously from the onset. Many mental illnesses are of course a chemical condition which we are born with and is often inherant, like my own.
My brother has a severe mental illness and, believe it or not, when I was a bk I thought the best thing for him would be the Seven Day Course!!!!!! ... which I attempted to impart to him. And even in his illness he was able to argue very well that the knowledge was flawed.
I remember distincly him refuting the idea that everything is in a downward spiral, especially consciousness. He was adamant that things had improved over time on many levels, now I was a fully fledged teacher/instrument for the Supreme Soul at the time and I couldn't see a hole in his argument.
In India mental illness is swept under the carpet and generally ignored, certainly not socially acceptable there to have a family member with mental illness.
My best friend who is a practising bk of 15 years is a psychiatrist and doesn't share Andrey's or the bk's views on mental illness (you will still hear BKs saying today that schizophrenia is just possesion by another soul!!!!!). She knows very well it is imperative that such conditions need to be treated very seriously from the onset. Many mental illnesses are of course a chemical condition which we are born with and is often inherant, like my own.
My brother has a severe mental illness and, believe it or not, when I was a bk I thought the best thing for him would be the Seven Day Course!!!!!! ... which I attempted to impart to him. And even in his illness he was able to argue very well that the knowledge was flawed.
I remember distincly him refuting the idea that everything is in a downward spiral, especially consciousness. He was adamant that things had improved over time on many levels, now I was a fully fledged teacher/instrument for the Supreme Soul at the time and I couldn't see a hole in his argument.
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fluffy bunny
- ex-BKWSU
- Posts: 5365
- Joined: 07 Apr 2006
- Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
- Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.
So, is he mentally ill or at his senses. Who has told you you have mental ilness. To me you just seem very normal. Yes, i encounter the same situation that i cannot persuade some souls that the conciousness and the world degrades ... whilst for others it seems so obvious.I couldn't see a hole in his argument.
Entering of souls is also new idea to me. I was just reading some things that i have written in some cases it clearly appeared like not at the same person has written it. The intention was not the same, the feelings etc. I have never thought of the idea of schizophrenia, and would never like to. It is normal. See the world, everyone is like this. It is exceptional the other one. To be always clear, stable, unshakable.
I have never gone to a psychiatrists and i would never like to. I consider it a violence to the human beings right. One can like to be crazy and be OK with it. He may not like to change. It is very often the relatives that take someone to a psychiatrist out of their own lack of understanding and they often create a conspiracy ... if two or more agree on the "fact" (as they consider) he is mentally ill ... let's take him to a doctor. But history also proves that progress lies in individual, that individual controls masses, and the idea that the majority is right is wrong. Truth is only one. This is just the opposite idea. I would say to the situation where one is taken by force to a psychiatrist that is the one who says for another one that is mentally ill, can he claim he is not.
Those who are considered mentally ill are often happier and for them it is also said that they have God's sparkle in them. Some cultures perceive it like that. For instance in some cultures death is celebrated with joy. It is a matter of conciousness. That's why there is only one soul that is single soul. He always clearly give only one direction. And he is also called the controller of spirits. So if one has problem with that one can get OK with rememberance of Him.
This is, of course, the case where the illness is not visible through the body ... because sometimes it has effect to the body too ... but also the idea of genes and that one can inherit an illness (one will have evil feeling for his parents) is different to the one that souls just gather based on the alikeness of their karma in the past; 'like attracts like'. So this idea of chemical problem in the body influencing the mind has no value because the mind is non-physical. Yes, it works through the physical but is separate and should rather influence the physical that the physical should influence the mind.
There is also this problem i encounter to explain how the soul is the master of the body. I use the example of the computer and computer man, then the other soul says OK, then if the arm is broken, why the soul, the master does not move it? I say it is the problem of the computer that it is broken, not in the computerman, the computerman may be very OK, but if the computer is broken what can he do? The same is that the brain is constituted from physical elements. When the soul leaves the matter stays the same, but it cannot think. Why? This is also a problem for some souls to understand. That they don't like to understand soul and body to be different
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