What has Shiva really accomplished?

[tinydot]

I am looking with an unbiased view of how Shiva has "reversed" the flow of moral degradation as His supposed role. Up to now, we have not seen any extra-ordinary physical manifestation like the virginal birth, the purification of matter, etc. as a result of ordinary form of pure and intense Remembrance on Him as He ascribes for us. I would say, He accomplished comforting the hearts of those who are insecure and searching, and made them happier in some degree.

Some are still thinking through direct Yoga, that they can purify the toxins in the food!!! ... I say move our big asses, start sweeping, cleaning-up the environment, be a self-sustaining organization, and plant our own organic vegetable. That is the way to "purify the elements" (bringing order back in matter). That is the way to bring those multilevel corporations (the suckers) down. We don't need their impure money in the long term, we need to create our own resources. Does Yoga help? Of course, it makes you work harder and smarter to organize your own little environment. If you have a backyard, plant your own vegetable and stop buying from supermarkets. If we look at Madhuban, Gyan Sarovar and Shantivan, those buildings did not materialize by Yoga. They were the results of the hard efforts of the BKs and some shudras.

We see buildings after buildings being bought and constructed by BKs. They suck in a large amount of resources, and they only give you chapati and good wishes, Bye! If BKs take $1.00 donation, they should give back $1.06 (in a good form of service) assuming the market is at 6% rate. That is non-profit. I think each Brahmin can check himself, if he is a giver or a sucker considering all resources involved. To be a physical giver means not to give physically to the suckers but to invest on those potential physical givers. God said, give your handful of rice ... I say give it to the potential physical givers. If someone has physically nothing and doesn't want to work, then why should God be even concerned in investing on him? He only deserves good wishes, that's all he can get.

So far, I have not seen how God running His business would ultimately bring balance, and moral & physical upliftment of the world. All I can see is the control of the physical senses for 70 years, and we are still here, trapped in our own little selfish and lustful instincts. Can God re-engineer His procedures and plans so we can move further ahead?

[celtiggyan]

For all that I don't believe there is anybody sitting in a life of luxury at a BK centre! The money system may be fair or unfair - that is a matter of opinion but the money does not go on individual wealth. I don't see Dadi rolling up in a new Jaguar!

C.

[tinydot]

That is a fair answer celticgyan.

I agree most of them don't have luxury. And I believe it is even better to live a life of abundance, is not that what we aspire for in the Golden Age? But I believe that the method of physical investment is not that accurate at all. And there you use up more resources than you can sustain to make them grow for EVERYONE not just for few. Bottomline is: End of the world is at hand. What if this is not the case? What is the plan when a long time member donating money gets sick?

I am pretty sure that most western senior sisters have health insurance plans. It is a fact that many BKs have died and will continue to die, and their relatives and loved ones will get little or nothing at all. If they are putting so much stuff in our heads, why cannot they advise us to at least apportion a part of our donation to some long term care insurance. Well, Baba will provide everything you need, that's the answer we get.

I think this money matter thing has already been discussed in this forum for some time. And we have no concrete solutions to present yet.

Instead of having too much parties, programs, and classes, why don't we plant vegetables in own backyard and stop buying from supermarket. In few months, I won't be buying any vegetables at all in the supermarket. That is just an example but that is what I am exactly doing.

[fluffy bunny]

Some are still thinking through direct Yoga, that they can purify the toxins in the food!!! ... I say move our big asses, start sweeping, cleaning-up the environment, be a self-sustaining organization, and plant our own organic vegetable. That is the way to "purify the elements" (bringing order back in matter).

God said, give your handful of rice... I say give it to the potential physical givers.

Firstly, I can confirm being told that;

• a) staring at my food in meditation, e.g. giving it dhristi, would purify it and
  b) "come Destruction" when the bombs were raining down and civilisation was falling to pieces, only by offering food and doing so would "God" be able to warn me if the food was poisoned or irradiated etc.

And this was by a very notable, educated, "scientific" senior Western BK.

Secondly, I have to agree with your sentiments. I recently starting to read of REAL Indian NGOs that went out to the villages, dug wells, laid sewers, taught sustainable agriculture and so on and it made me feel disgusted at myself falling for the BKWSU and giving me time, energy and money it ... mostly sitting on my ass listening to other folks sitting on their ass.

Thirdly, I can confirm that some - I do not know all - Senior Western BK Sisters have pension plans and keep their savings accounts whilst encouraging junior other to give all to their last cent. I'd like to know if anyone else can comment on this aspect. ( ... as an entirely separate issue, where did the money in Janki's account come from?)

Lastly, I disagree on the luxury factor.

For all that I don't believe there is anybody sitting in a life of luxury at a BK centre! The money system may be fair or unfair - that is a matter of opinion but the money does not go on individual wealth. I don't see Dadi rolling up in a new Jaguar!

Hmmn, but the accountant does ... I have seen the Dadis riding around in Mercs. They don't need to own them, they have them at a snap of a finger. For a bunch of immigrants arriving in foreign lands with a suitcase in the 70s, they are now living in centrally heated, double glazed Million Dollar properties and country Mansions burning holes in the ozone flying around internationally, without actually having to gone out and worked. And how many of them are skinny? Compare that to your average Indian, even one working 16 hours a day in your local grocery store, business is in their blood and now it is religion.

Sure, they are not Rajneesh, but list me how much other poverty they have allievated apart from their own? 20 or 30 years after Destruction when are they going to start? I have done BK and I have done grocery store and I can tell you which one is harder.

[mr green]

It is true that some centre-wasis lead extremely frugal lives and sincerly give anything that would afford them any comfort straight to the Yagya ... But ... there is much luxury being had.

I have also seen Dadis in Rolls Royces and Mercs. Dadis fly round the world in either business class or first class, a good £3000 a shot. Jayanti also takes business class sometimes.

But just think, people like Jayanti will never have the stress of thinking where her next meal is coming from or whether she'll be able to afford to pay the mortgage this month or the tax bill. That is a financial comfort I would love to have.

Having private quarters in beautiful settings in retreat centres all over the world wouldn't be too much of a hardship either.

[joel]

Having private quarters in beautiful settings in retreat centres all over the world wouldn't be too much of a hardship either.

That the working hours are tough (those early mornings!) is somewhat recompensed by afternoon naptime.

[tinydot]

Let's take a moment of reflection of whose actions, behavior, responsibilities and accomplishments these belong to.

Hypothetical Scenario #1.

• Brahma taught the entire teachings, and Shiva (assuming He is the Supreme Being) never participated. Then for sure, there must be "something" missing in the teachings. Brahma might have established an organization that might have more students by now, like that of Maharishi.

Hypothetical Scenario #2.

• Brahma decided to allow Shiva to say what He has got to say, and Shiva did participate. Shiva made sure He is above (unaffected by) the Law of Karma, made sure He did not make changes on Brahma's teachings because Brahma has his own FREE choice to teach based on his own understanding.

Bottomline:

• God is not subject to any form of liability.

I believe what indeed has happened is scenario #2. In BKWSU, we still see a lot of inconsistencies like having virtues versus desire to control, Brahmins who have resulted in traumatic experience after having the so-called spiritual relationship, etc. In my opinion, if it would have been scenario #1, the outcome would have been worst.

That left me a notion that God had taught what He's got to teach to prevent a "total catastrophic loss" in humanity. And that His "pure" teaching (if that ever exists) will reverberate in our hearts.

That to me is Shiva's (or God's) accomplishment, a heart that has been transformed from small to big, from vicious to virtuous. I believe there is someone out there who has nearly a good heart.

And what about Brahma's, Dadis', SS's and our accomplishment? Many like... BK expansion, Programs (P.R.'s), Buildings, etc. (Both material and spiritual - not bad for a small time group in the 1930's).

[fluffy bunny]

Brahma might have established an organization that might have more students by now, like that of Maharishi.

... and a real University !!!! I don't know if you have seen the TM movement's campus but it is quite impressive.

I am afraid that it might give the BKWSU ambitions. I am surprised that one has not been on their shopping list for a long time and I fully expect one soon. That was they could deflect any questioning and criticism of their bogus status. What is more interesting is why they chose instead to move into already existing educational establishments with their memes.

The thought of entire campuses stopping for traffic control is just too close to Logan's Run for me ... Logan's Run.

[tinydot]

... and a real University !!!! I don't know if you have seen the TM movement's campus.

I have not seen the campus physically but only on the video and internet. My former classmate in California is a TM practioner. She related to me the "butt-hopping" technique as performed in the Siddhi program. It was hilarious to see them (TMers) "flying".

[fluffy bunny]

I have not seen the campus physically but only on the video and internet. My former classmate in California is a TM practioner. She related to me the "butt-hopping" technique as performed in the Siddhi program. It was hilarious to see them (TMers) "flying".

Sorry, I was still writing when you replied trying to fix that link. [You can re-edit your post for up to an hour in case youmake mistakes]. I found another longer Logan Run's clip. For the PBKs' pleasure, bear in mind that this was made in 1976 and features the destruction of a false paradise. And check out the "The Crystal" !! ... see; Logan's Run clip ... and come join The Rebels.

Having private quarters in beautiful settings in retreat centres all over the world wouldn't be too much of a hardship either.

I missed that bit. Is that true!?! Do we have Baba's room and now Dadi's room?

The business class air travel is a big surprise. I wonder where the money comes from that? I suppose the business executives in the special lounges need service and this is Baba's way of reaching them too ...

I suppose it is rationalized by the thought that as "special souls", they have "special needs" and that if they did not, they would never be able to find and maintain their peace of mind, that the pressure and stress of being amongst BK is just too much and they need somewhere to put their face on ... or perhaps that it is the "natural love" of individuals for them that want them to have somewhere special. A sort of Golden Age in the Sangum Yug.

But never mind, when our devotees recognize us or we make them, may be we can have our own special rooms in our own retreat centers and not need to be jealous ...

Yes, I like the thought of you growing your own vegetables and taking positive steps to be natural and down to earth tiny. Its a good paradisical sanskar to develop, and practical too. No sarcasm intended. Serve through the mind and eat local organic veggies.

[celtiggyan]

I don't grudge them flying business class. If they do a lot of flying it's the only way. Not if it's a local flight lasting an hour or so of course. BKs the brand need to look their best after all!! did not the TM Yogi master have umpteen Rolls Royces?

Seriously though maybe the BKs are nearing the Copper Age of their own religious cycle - things can only get worse. Of course, it cannot be the whole truth but there are a lot of good teachings in it, if only you know what to filter out. For me - I filter out the pseudo Science **** about cycles, purifying food with drishti etc. I like the Meditation - it works and Dristi itself helps between human beings (not food) - this is quite unique. I have not seen any other group who uses eyes-open and drishti. The Laws of Karma may not be true but to live your life as if they were seems a good thing! Most of the teachings about sex-lust I kind of half take on board - in as much as you become less soul conscience and this effects your meditation. However, it should be noted that through millions of years of evolution our brains are hard-wired to like the opposite sex (well, the majority of us at least). There is no shame in admitting defeat from time to time!

C.

[john]

The thought of entire campuses stopping for traffic control is just too close to Logan's Run for me ... Logan's Run.

Great film. I think everyone should watch it at least once (the whole film that is).

[bansy]

Do we have Baba's room and now Dadi's room?

There are some BK centres that went through refurbishment whereby Baba's room (the one usually with a large picture of Brahma Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and Shiva point of light, a few flowery decorations) was moved or removed and replaced with beds and wardrobes so that the Dadis and Seniors who make their travels have a place to stay at the centre. But furthermore I've also heard that normal BKs may also stay, when given permission.

So there may not be always be a Baba's room at a centre, and if so it could be shared with Dadi's bedroom, in which case it makes it hard for any BK to simply just walk in and out freely without having to knock first. Anyway, should there be a Baba's room in the first place; on the other hand, I've always loved the stillness of a Baba's room and I am sure many people also have had good experiences in such settings.


To go back to the thread, I am not sure yet what Shiva has accomplished, but since the devastating world war 2 (which is around the time of the Yagya), many countries especially in Europe and the East have grown strong and wealthy, so I don't think it could be the vices of people that made them rebuild their countries, but the internal spirit of the simple human soul.

[mr green]

Have you not been to Gyan Sarovar ex- l? Dadis cottage there is as big as most of the bhavans, I know it's not for her exclusive use but I know given the choice of Raj Rishi bhavan and the cottage, I know where I'd be staying.

But, yes, the Dadis have nice private quarters at all bk retreat centres.

Diamond House in London is now Dadi's house :lol: They don't stay at Baba Bhavan any more.

[tinydot]

To go back to the thread, I am not sure yet what Shiva has accomplished, but since the devastating world war 2 (which is around the time of the Yagya), many countries especially in Europe and the East have grown strong and wealthy, so I don't think it could be the vices of people that made them rebuild their countries, but the internal spirit of the simple human soul.

That is a good observation, Bansy. I hope it was God who gave them that internal spirit to rebuild. It's hard to draw a conclusion here whether we give credit to God.