Karma

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mr green
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Post by mr green »

i believe this question shows very clearly the danger that spirituality brings, and the danger of holding your morals as some sort of code.

How a human being can even ask such a question without instinctively knowing the answer to me is just plain sad! Anyone passing by someone getting beaten, will feel their inner peace disturbed. This means deeply you know this is not a good thing and of course you should try and help !!!

I mean, you could apply this type of thinking to anything, 'I wonder should I pat the baby's back as he is choking??? ... nnnaaaaaahhhhhh. It's good for him to settle his karma, ultimately I am helping ... *WAKE UP!!!!!*
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Post by bansy »

I think most of us agree we have some basic understanding of the "Laws of Karma". i.e. be good get good, be bad get bad. Though we don't know where it comes from.

Rather than looking it at an individual level, I prefer to look at this on a holistic view. The only thing that has perturbed me, and I hope over due course this would be clearly explained and understood, is how the first negative bit of karma came about, if everything in the beginning (of the cycle) was perfect. Or was/is it ? We say nature degrades over time. OK, that can be accepted, because Mother Nature is whoever she is and that she is more of the physical plane.

But how do perfectly complete souls which all of us will become (:P ) degrade ourselves, this is the metaphysical ? I mean, we're putting all our intense efforts to burn and defeat Ravan, we are to succeeed as God has promised, Mother Nature is coming to help out to clean and shake and wash up to get rid of the waste.

Everything starts off pristine. How can there be souls who are 100% and others 99.99999%, the latter cannot be construed. There's a choice how to start of but would you prefer to set up a company with 1 cent of debt, or totally free of debt ? Thus, how can Maya come in, when there is not even a trace of Maya at the start ?

However, on an individual level, whatever situation comes in front, do what you believe is right, as it is your nature to do so ...
Now the question arises do you help this soul who is being beaten
... could depend on the soul being beaten, is this any soul or if this soul was your mother. Though does it or should it matter? What would have happened if Jesus simply walked on by whilst everyone was stoning Mary Magdalene? Drama is drama. I think each and every situation, good or bad, is there to teach us, for a reason, though how it links to karma is yet to understand, though happy to learn about it from others sharing their thoughts on this rather complex topic.
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mr green
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Post by mr green »

I think it is only made into a complex topic by thinking about it too much. And also by the fact that, as Bansy points out, there are many parts of it that are incongruous ... can it be called a law ... I cannot see it :?
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Post by andrey »

We are all now to become karmateet. It means whilst performing actions, to be above this actions. It does not mean to leave the body, but to finish all the accounts, and tese will finish for all. When one is karmateet one does not like to beat anyone or to be beaten, nor one will see a beating. We ourselves choose the path to pass through sorrow. I can make sure if I’m OK others will be too.

I would like to quote a poem from a Kaliyugi poet. It has a connetion of what I was trying to say and describes the bad situation we have come to. It will be an approximate quotation

In the system that they have created humanty is an exception
The one who acts humanly will suffer out of that
Close your ears if you hear a cry for help
Turn your head away
Caution the one who gives a hand to help another one
Pity for those who forget this
They give the human being water to drink
And it drinks a wolf.

But what the Supreme Soul does it that he takes all the wolves, monkeys and bad human beings, because we are all these. And makes them human beings and makes them deities. Yes, he does not get good karma for this? Why? Because karma is connected to the conciousness more then to the cation and we know he is always detached.

In Satyug we act, but there is no bondage of karma. Why does it happen that then there is this downfall, because there is downfall in the conciousness. Duality comes in the conciousness. Two directions. Out of the two ... both cannot be true. One is false. So now we have 10 differet directions. Before we act we have a headache, we act and get a better headache. When these 10 directions collaps uner one direction, when we choose one, then in only one direction there is salvation, every other direction leads to degradation.
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mr green
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Post by mr green »

Have you ever tried LSD?
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Post by andrey »

Dear brother Mr. green,

I have not. Why? I know one can have visions out of it. Yes this knowledge also gives visons with open eyes (visions of the intellect) and spiritual intoxication.

I forgot to mention that even the heroes of history cannot make the world better. The world goes down. Only the Supreme Soul can make it new, no one else.
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Post by pbktrinityshiva »

I have previously.. my feeling is that it temporarily raises the mind into a higher level, however the intellect does not follow..

Then comes the fall as far down as you went up, but you may not realise and do so again.

Maya tempting you with the heights of heaven only to pull your intellect down into a pit. I see it as essentially turning your afterburners on spiritually and burning up whatever spiritual fuel remains. Not to mention giving a 'come get me' to ghost and evil souls which surround you and can then freely enter and influence/control :)

The true intoxication of ShivBaba's light of knowledge is a vastly superior experience which will only lead to positive outcomes, a polar opposite.

As it is said mind over matter.. not letting matter control the mind :) I have a good amount of respect for those who don't get entangled in these types of things.
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Post by mr green »

I am sorry I was just being silly about the LSD. It was a joke to imply that I couldn't understand what he was talking about, which I cannot ... it wasn't meant as a serious question 8)
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Post by pbktrinityshiva »

i know, i wanted an opportunity to blab about my experience.. eheh
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Why worry?

Post by jannisder »

Why worry, about karma, and everything else? ... It won't "help" anyway ... everything is going to be exactly the same. As i read;

"Time is not linear but rather cyclical and the physical world manifests as an eternally repeating and identical 5,000 year cycle at which the end of it is destroyed and then re-created every time. Each repeating cycle is exactly the same as the previous one."

Can any one explain to me why this is not making any sense to me?

Without telling me that "people don't know anything ..." (DJ). Or because I am Maya, or LOKIK, non BK ... I don't understand the knowledge.

BTW, after the 7 day course, am I "allowed" to hear/read/have a copy of the Murli?
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Re: Why worry?

Post by proy »

jannisder wrote:Why worry, about karma, and everything else? ... It won't "help" anyway ... everything is going to be exactly the same.
Hi Jan, I asked the very same question myself when I first went to classes. It is such a glaring contradiction.

Time is an endlessly repeating 5,000 year cycle, which is identical each time. So surely if I do something, either good or bad, it is not my responsibility. Therefore to worry about karma is useless. I am going to do again exactly what I did at this time 5,000 years ago. There is nothing I can do about it if I have no free will. Then at the same time I am told to be careful about what I do, say, or even think.

The teacher got very angry and told me off. I never got an answer. She would not even look at me after that time. I was watched carefully after that until I learned to stop asking awkward questions. I am back to asking awkward questions now, so are there any BKs who can give me an answer to this please?
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Re: Why worry?

Post by joel »

proy wrote:Hi Jan, I asked the very same question myself when I first went to classes. It is such a glaring contradiction. Time is an endlessly repeating 5,000 year cycle, which is identical each time. So surely if I do something, either good or bad, it is not my responsibility. Therefore to worry about karma is useless. I am going to do again exactly what I did at this time 5,000 years ago. There is nothing I can do about it if I have no free will.
Yes, those who made efforts 5,000 years ago will hear the knowledge and transform themselves through various efforts. The ones who say that the knowledge of repetition means it doesn't matter what they do won't make such efforts, will die regretting their missed opportunities, and that will be their fate, cycle after cycle.

My current inquiry is into the disjunction between spoken words (including all justifications and philosophies) and acts. So that for example, politicians speak in a language of collective decisionmaking for the benefit of all. Where does that connect to real actions? Can any laws provide any real assurance of anything. I think it is the other way: any law, any statement can be retracted, circumvented to allow any act, and any act can be served by the spawning of new laws.

What is an act? A release of energy, whether of a man (or woman) hammering a piece of iron, or a key turning in the ignition or a car, a foot depressing accelerator or brake pedal, the dispatching of an army, the finger on a nuclear button, poison in the hand of an assassin.

Actions are where strength is. Speech, too, is a kind of act using the muscles to create sound. There is magic in speech in the form of prayer, incantations, spells, sutras. There is magic in music and song. It is a kind of magic, yet rarely stops wars, bullets, bulldozers.

How are the acts of a religious group distinct from its "unique" beliefs? A religious group survives by the resources it receives and by applying these resources to expand and duplicate itself. The religions that do not ask for resources, do not spread themselves, such religions may exist, but they are rare, hidden, ignored. Even the Balinese gods survive on the basis of ritual offerings. There can be room in the world for miracles (in my opinion) however a car generally needs fuel to run and people with cars and trucks and guns to defend them can build machines and pump oil to fuel more cars. Religions flower as they receive some infusion of resources from industry. I doubt they can liberate humanity from the attraction to the benefit of a machine that mows grass, or conveniently blows a hole in a person with the delicate pull of a trigger.

The behavior of electrons was better understood when physicists began describing their orbits as probability clouds. Human behavior, too, is more fully described when we accept the uncertainty and variability. If they are cars, some people will drive them into trees and walls. If there are guns, some people will pull the trigger, even with the guns loaded and pointed at family members.

It's not that children can misbehave because they don't know right and wrong and that adults can be trusted. Adults seem predictable, seem mature, but anyone can do anything.

So in formulating my own opinions, I see that the behavior of machines is more predictable than that of people. The only thing predictable about people (one of the only things) is that they are attracted to the advantage that comes from a machine. So they use machines. When the person is riding - say a jet-ski or motorboat - many aren't going to be conscious of the marine life that is being traumatised by their propeller action or by the waves they raise. Drivers aren't aware of how their vehicles carry weed seeds. Merchant shippers fill and empty their ballast tanks without thinking they may be transporting harmful organisms.

Certain myths help me to interpret the human condition. One is of Prometheus. How fire--which is the ability to release energies greater than that of our own metabolism--transforms man into the equal of the gods. Another is of Pandora. How human curiosity is responsible for myriad potent creation that bring ill, and like the genie (think nuclear technology) once released cannot be returned to the bottle.

Religious groups believe that their magical belief and magical speech will transform the world. It does transform their experience of the world: speech has that power. But it will have a hard time changing the physics of the world where a steel hatchet cuts better than a stone hatchet, and where people are drawn toward the advantage that comes from tools, machines, industry, government, authority and war.

That is my rant of this morning.
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Re: Why worry?

Post by proy »

joel wrote:Yes, those who made efforts 5,000 years ago will hear the knowledge and transform themselves through various efforts. The ones who say that the knowledge of repetition means it doesn't matter what they do won't make such efforts, will die regretting their missed opportunities, and that will be their fate, cycle after cycle.
Hi Joel, thanks for your "rant", I always enjoy a good rant. What you say in answer to the question asked by Jan and me seems to mean that there is absolutely no point in worrying about karma. As you say, if I did not make any effort in the last cycle, then I will not make any effort in this cycle. That will be my fate, cycle after cycle.

So, as karma is meaningless, why do the BKs teach it at all? Or is it that the endlessly repeating identical cycle is an erroneous teaching, and that should be dropped?

In other words, your answer is not an answer at all, it just throws us back onto the original question. As far as I can see the two doctrines are mutually exclusive. If the 5,000 year identical cycle is true then karma is irrelevant. If karma matters (or exists) at all then there can not be a 5,000 year identical cycle. The only other alternative I can think of is that both doctrines are wrong. There is no karma, and there is no 5,000 year identical cycle.

So, I am still waiting for an answer please.
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Re: Why worry?

Post by joel »

proy wrote:Hi Joel, thanks for your "rant", I always enjoy a good rant. What you say in answer to the question asked by Jan and me seems to mean that there is absolutely no point in worrying about karma. As you say, if I did not make any effort in the last cycle, then I will not make any effort in this cycle. That will be my fate, cycle after cycle. So, as karma is meaningless, why do the BKs teach it at all? Or is it that the endlessly repeating identical cycle is an erroneous teaching, and that should be dropped? In other words, your answer is not an answer at all, it just throws us back onto the original question.
I'd like to distance myself, as it is not my answer, just my memory of a BK answer. Endless debate and discussion on these cycle-related points with people who live on the fringes of the BKs (usually those who are not 'fully surrendered') seems one of the distinguishing characteristics of the group, at least among western adherents.
As far as I can see the two doctrines are mutually exclusive. If the 5,000 year identical cycle is true then karma is irrelevant. If karma matters (or exists) at all then there can not be a 5,000 year identical cycle. The only other alternative I can think of is that both doctrines are wrong. There is no karma, and there is no 5,000 year identical cycle. So, I am still waiting for an answer please.
If that is your attitude, then probably you are screwed, because you won't be making passionate efforts to remain in constant remembrance, and therefore your bad evil spidery insides will not be incinerated ... at least according to BK thinking.

I think the whole idea of karma is suspect, because divine justice tends to serve to lull people into passivity: if God is responsible for righting wrongs, then we needn't concern ourselves with, for example, the US government throwing people in jail, or torturing them, of the Russians throwing newspaper reporters out windows, or poisoning critics of the head of the secret police who now runs the country. Come to think of it Bush I was also head of the secret police. Hmmmm ...
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Post by di »

Hello everyone!

It appears to me (as a total outsider) this sort of thinking goes hand in hand with the impression that the BK institution has all the ammunition it needs to deny any responsibility for their actions and the result of their actions. It allows them or anyone else with this style of thinking to do what suits them, allows so called justification for those actions (its all necessary, you must do this now! the end is imminent! you must purify yourself if you want to be a king!) and then to deny any responsibility for the horrendous consequences of those actions.

I mean according to BK doctrine, what does it matter, if something bad happens to you, its your karma. The end result is all that matters, nothing you do matters because you have done it before and will do it again. But hold on, there is not really appears to be an end result as there is no end to a cycle. Excuse me if I am a bit confused. It appears to be one of the many tools used to remove free thinking, conscience, responsibility for behaviour and dare I say honourablity in what we do.

If it is continually unchanging, then why bother? Why consider others? It doesn't matter what you do? Excellent thinking if you want to develop depressive/addictive type personalities and remove free thinking, questioning minds- not the subservient types that would be useful. I am sorry, I do not mean to be so rude, but you tell this to any reasonably well balanced individual that has their act together, not addicted to anything, no mental imbalances, you will find they will give the weirdest look, think you have a screw or two loose and need psychiatric help and run a million miles away. It also seems to me ... if two opposing ideas are put forward as though they are not opposing and in fact supposed to support each other doesn't mean it is true. It cant be. A method to confuse and throw a person's logic reasoning and thinking, it supports the manipultating idea of 'you do not have the knowledge, you need to work harder, do more service to gain understanding' doctrine.

What is, is what is. One thing cannot be another, no matter how much it is discussed and theorised. It puts all of the responsibility onto the individual that THEY are the reason they do not understand, THEY are the impure ones and need to try harder to gain knowledge. It is their fault. It puts forward the problem is not with the institution, it is with the poor individual who is trying to find peace and some meaning to life, finding they are so unworthy, that it is all for naught and then go and suicide-not such an unpredictable outcome is it?

A logic conclusion cannot come from something totally illogical, no matter how we try, but it is an excellent way to confuse people and make them feel so unworthy e.g. Us leaders of this sect understand ... why cant you? ... you must make yourself worthy in order to be 'up here' with us. I am mean if you want to unbalance a wheel, throw in a few weights in the wrong place and the wheel and your car ride becomes highly unstable.... get my meaning?

So I guess my question is - are the BKs told these teachings for the teachings sake or as a means to mind control? I understand they really believe these things but this doesnt make it true. Especially as aspects are totally contradictory ... and I really hope I havent upset anyone by saying that. If so many, many appologies, but it still stands.

Sorry, my rant for the day, not anywhere as good as Joel's, take care everyone!
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