Karma

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proy
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understanding

Post by proy »

John wrote:Did you understand what they were saying correctly?
I am sure I heard the story correctly, as it was repeated many times. It is shocking, and it is possible that the understanding of the person who so often told that story was incorrect.
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Post by fluffy bunny »

Aimée wrote:What I think is that we are like batteries, charged at the beginning with 100% peace, purity etc. but a battery, even fully charged ends up loosing power with the erosion of time, until eventually it is completely dead.
And even rechargeable batteries lose their ability to recharge. Each cycle they recharge less until they can recharge no more.
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Why Worry?

Post by proy »

I am going away from the original question about the Cycle Vs Karma here, but still on the topic of why worry. A bit "creative", and naughty maybe, but as no-one has answered the karma/cycle question and this other "Why Worry" memory came to me from my BK days, I thought this may be a good place to put it.

In the first instance, the teaching of imminent Destruction was very attractive to me. It relieved me of feeling responsible for the state of the planet. Why worry about recycling, pollution, youth crime, etc., when destruction is coming anyway? I actually found the thought quite comforting. I feel a bit ashamed that I thought that way but I feel better to admit it now.
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Post by tinydot »

ex-l wrote:And even rechargeable batteries lose their ability to recharge. Each cycle they recharge less until they can recharge no more.
Perfect comment. The changing of constants. Courtesy of the Buddha.
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Post by zhuk »

^^ yes nothing ever stays as it is. The only constant is indeed change. Not good or bad. Just IS. Very Zen hehe ... which makes a whole lot more sense to me than the BKs ever did. :biggrin:

Now looking from the outside, I see that it is a grave yet oh-so typical human frailty to "need" to believe that there was once some Perfect, Wonderful, Golden Age, to which we shall return ... if we are only good enough!. :P [read: numberwise]

The very nature of Nirvana, BK Golden Age, Heaven, Valhalla etc is a Utopia ... and a Utopia can NEVER exist. Its a human construct & mental image of perfection. Which cannnot ever come to pass, otherwise it would not BE nirvana in the first place ... by that very definition it is a human ideal that exists in imagination only. :)
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Post by mr green »

In my opinion, where the BKs went wrong on karma was re-writing the Hindu concepts of akarma, sukarma and vikarma. What utter twaddle. And on top of that, this business of karmic accounts, like there's someone or some subtle machinery keeping a score card on your life!!!!!!! It is laughable.

I like to think people who are horrid get their come uppance, but do they? The English version of karma is very simplistic, they use the saying these days; "... that'll come back to bite you on the bum" :lol: :lol:
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Post by celticgyan »

Jesus was supposed to have said, "as ye sow so shall ye reap". I have no problems with Karma between people whilst alive in the sense that if I am nice to people they will probably be nice to me. (Though not always this works 90% of the time!).

As for between lives - well, who can say. Do we even know that we have more than one life? (Nice theory that it is having 84!).

C.
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Post by fluffy bunny »

mr green wrote:And on top of that, this business of karmic accounts, like there's someone or some subtle machinery keeping a score card on your life!!!!!!! It is laughable.
Precisely. Either,
  • a) tell us how it works and where it is ... which will, of course, introduce some new elements into the 3 Worlds that "God" has not realised yet, or
    b) give us a better theory that actually works.
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Lesson 3: the Law of Karma

Post by bro neo »

ex-l wrote: I keep asking this same question to stunning silence; not 'what is karma?' but 'Where is Karma?'

Through which medium does karma work and how does it effect? I do not deny Newtonian physics but there is no imperial medium present for it to work. I think it has been misplaced in the West as the Gurus piggybacked onto scientific cause and effect ideas. Newtonian mechanics do not always work in the quanta, so what does where?

For me, the theory of "Karma" is a sign post that says, "You can stop thinking here and go back to Yoga/sleep". A mental-plug, a worthy tool of social control but, frankly, no more real as described than the bogeyman living under your bed and who is out to get you if you are bad.

Its probably off topic but I am interested in individual's visions and understanding of it. The truth has to be deeper but my feeling is that as we atoms, not atmas, are propelled through the cosmos by some tremendous explosion half an eternity ago ... I think life is a lot more random and out of our control than folks realise.
tinydot wrote: I don't know either. The only thing I know is it works through our conscience. And people with little conscience may be affected by karmic effects a little, also. So if those BKs were not affected by the deceit they have created, it is because they have little conscience. The only HOPE I have is that conscience is eternal and it carries the negative impressions of karma.

BUT WHY HOPE FOR THE NEXT LIFETIME FOR KARMA TO TAKE ITS EFFECT, IF YOU CAN DO SOMETHING AT THE PRESENT TO SECURE JUSTICE?
Very important stuff.
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Post by bro neo »

As you sow, so shall you reap. How quaint that the best phrase the BKWSU has to explain the Law of Karma is from a ‘less’ valid religion. I gave a talk as a BK about reincarnation for a united spiritual group once. My SS, center in charge told me to speak in unison with the other speakers from sects of Buddhism, Hinduism and something new agy, so I did.

When it was my turn I went on about the proof of reincarnation as being people’s accounts of past life memories, and how all the major religions pronounce reincarnation as truth so it must be true, and I can’t remember what else. Anyways, then this guy gets the mike after we all have spoken and he’s like some radical philosopher. He starts talking about something, something, chaos theory and other views on it, and I, being filled with spiritual self richiousness, just tune out. I give powerful Drishti to everyone in the audience and remember Baba. He, he, the power of being totally closed minded and in denial should be the 9th power of the BKs.

Someone’s testimony is never really valid proof when it comes to something like spirituality, although religions are based on it. Someone could be coax to say something for the sake of fame or because they are just not getting enough attention at home. Maybe they have spontaneously tapped into some residue emotional energy left behind by a dead person and have confused this energy with their own. We don’t have the technology as of yet to prove or disprove reincarnations validity, but I think if we can’t prove something with a pocket knife, some flint and a bottle of water, we don’t need to validate it as important. We should be able to live perfectly with what we can determine with our own senses, a good buddy or 2 and the scientific method.

Reincarnation and the Law of Karma, IMHO, seems very hyped upped and distorted by social groups in order to maintain order, discipline and control. If people start running around thinking they will get away with anything, society will be in total anarchy. What makes Karma such a believable theory, as tinydot pointed at, is that it seems to be the driving force of what we call the conscience.

I have had a horrible experience with conscience. When I had a near death experience after the initial dread I felt of being near death I saw a flash review of some events that happened in my life. Reviewing all of them caused sever grievances which hurt to the core, very severe indeed. I felt the severe pain and guilt to what I think was in reflection to my personal values and beliefs at the time. Yes, I think that was really it. My conscience, so to speak, was not some predefined codex of morality but was my core beliefs. I think this because with one of the incidents I saw, the powers that be seemed to judge me harshly where as I defended myself and felt partially justified by my actions.

In regards to the criteria the powers that be were judging me on I don’t know. I can only assume. But they did seem to be implying I was out of order by influencing other people in an irresponsible way or worse hurting other people. I don’t think anyone should really take my testimony for more then curious possibilities to what might be, because even as I remember them now, I question myself to their validity. Nothe the less, it’s not really part of our day to day existence so most of it need not way importance in our discussion. I was told however, during my NDE, that I could have another chance, which seemed to imply I could take another birth.

It does seem of paramount importance that we determine for ourselves what is the criteria for right and wrong in this world, other wise we wander through life lackluster and in a drudgery blown like a leaf in the wind from one pleasure to the next. Of course this could be the sole purpose of life and just doing this is what’s right.

Of course the Law of Karma does play an important part in the education of groups of people to inform them to be humble and to have reverence for mortality and the intangible. After a few chugs of gava or 151 Bacardi one can truly feel invincible and it takes, at the very least, something like a code of conduct to keep us from bashing windows in with our heads. However, more refined minds such as us :wink: need more refined, defined and concrete definitions then that as pertained to by gardening.
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Post by bro neo »

One of the main problems with the Law of Karma is that it reinforces that belief system that people are inherently bad for the circumstances they are in. This is perhaps the worst core belief implanted into the deepest part of my phyche not just from religions but from my family of origin.

"bro neo, you did not get strait A’s on your report card so you are no good! You are naughty so you don’t get to play with your friends or get toys." Of course this way of thinking then carries on into how I interpret my entire reality. "I am inherently no good so my parents suck and so does my life. People don’t love me because I am no good."

Karma reinforces this, in fact it is perhaps the common sense of the old thinkers that have determined such is the law of the universe.

ex-l said somewhere about how probability might have a lot more to do with what’s happening in the world. If we saw things like this what a change it would make. I wasn’t born into a hell of a family because I was evil in a past life or cause I suck, it’s just probability. Most families in this world suck and I just got born into one.

What a liberating belief that would be, instead of saying I was ignorant or evil; probability just made things happened because of an equation with certain variables. The creators of the philosophy of karma no doubt were not the great mathematicians of our history. They were the people who sat around all day thinking about nothing or interpreting their imagination as messages from deities and depended on the support and money of mostly illiterate commoners to feed their bellies. (OK the last comment was a bit harsh, but how far form the truth do you think it really is?)

Ah but there is a beautiful solution to resolve our karma. We can become pathetic nobody’s working day and night to enable poor people who should be helping them selves but who also believe they are no good and are helpless victims.

The solution, from a karmic stand point, is that if we our selves are suffering then we should go and use what little we have to give to those less fortunate so that in our next life ( :lol: ) things MIGHT be good.

And no matter what, don’t be selfish and don't use what we have to empower ourselves to make our lives better by getting a better education, learning proper money management skills and learning the truth about the universe. No no… This will only make our lives worse.. not to mention maybe over throw those who made these ridiculous laws.

I am in no way implying that everything happens by mere chance, nor am I am implying that their might not be some greater intelligence guiding our lives with synchronicity. But what makes more logic, sense and is realer then anything else in the world, IMO, is that most of what is sown and reaped is not determined by past lives and past action of good and evil, what happens in the world is determined by the real world interaction of variables and probabilities.
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Lesson 3: the Law of Karma

Post by abrahma kumar »

Thank you for sharing bro neo.
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Post by paulkershaw »

bro neo wrote: But what makes more logic, sense and is realer then anything else in the world, IMO, is that most of what is sown and reaped is not determined by past lives and past action of good and evil, what happens in the world is determined by the real world interaction of variables and probabilities.
Which to my way of thought says you're also aligning with current planetary teachings as shown in "The Law of Attraction" and "The Secret" amongst (many) others. The undesirable aspects of the Law of Karma become prevalent when one does not understand or beleive in being a Co-Creator (for whatever belief/reasoning system one has ...) and does not use Deliberate Creation principles but rather lives in 'what was' (the past) instead of 'what is' (the present), again due to many possible circumstances.

These teachings indeed say 'sow' and 'reap' but it has to be performed from a desired and conscientously practicised consciousness/awareness - so often difficult to maintain in todays hectic life - but perhaps at this time also provides one with a deeper understanding of the true meaning of the word 'remembrance' - if you can remember to create the awereness of constant creation, then you will receive same in return in an immediate and equal manner...

Perhaps BK speak of 'remembrance' should really have meant that when you align with The Creator on a 'permanent' level then you become a Co-Creator too ... so we can now start writing our own charts which says "How much did I create today?" ...
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Post by bro neo »

Thanks abrahma kumar,

Paulkershaw, I think the "Law" of attraction is good but only to a certain point. No doubt some of it makes good sense but some of it I haven't had good results with so I have taken it off the pedestal I once had it on. No doubt the stuff from "The Secret" is good as part of a greater equation but in and of it self, IMO, it is not complete. A more complete equation envolves the action and interplay of the actions of others, how attraction applies to them in respect to us, the universe at large, physics, etc. But if it works for you, congratulations.

I think the profoundness of your point about being a co-creator could mean a lot more then we take it for. It could be the Darwinian evolutionary process of natural selection which may be next step in human evolution.
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Post by paulkershaw »

Yup - On a level, I'd also agree to what you post. It must go way deeper and I beleive that teachings such as the Secret and Law of Attraction are probably only an introduction to humanity and may be the tip of an iceberg we'll only see emerging over the next priod of time. (Hope so anyway) ...

But any 'Law' that one works with is open to interpretation and belief, i.e limited belief in something would also probably only bring limited result of same.

I'd say its up to each individual to ascertain the level of abundance or happiness one wants and then go for it, working of course through the 4 centres of human experience, mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually. Happiness cannot be the same for everyone or we wouldn't all be individuals ... and satisfaction or contentment may not be 'happiness' either. And if we don't truly understand what 'abundance' is then how can we possibly create it ... and this could include the point that we (ex-BKs) may have left the cult because we did not see the Golden Age in quite the same way as those who are still in ... or that we knew we could create it right now, here, today if we wanted to and that we were more powerful than what we were being allowed to be in that creation ... so we left, wouldyaagree?
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