Shiva's entrance into bodies

[john]

There was a long running debate in ex-BK chat about the nature of Shiva's entrance into Brahma Baba (Dada Lekhraj). The opinions ranged from Inspiration(no real entry) to complete possession or taking control of the bodily organs. Is it possible for a PBK to put forward the PBK views on the matter and to get any insight from Baba(Virenda Dexit).
Bringing clarity to points such as.

• Does Shiva actually enter the body and take control of his appointed chariots, especially Dada Lekhraj of BK and Virenda Dexit of PBK?
  
  Are they at the time actually aware of this..is there any sensation or relinquishing of control of the body?

If Shiva hasn't returned to the Soul World as BKs claim. Does he need to be in a body at all times or is he free to roam the 3 worlds at will. Can he function outside of a physical body as he has no subtle body.

John

[arjun]

Dear John,
Om Shanti.

1. Does Shiva actually enter the body and take control of his appointed chariots, especially Dada Lekhraj of BK and Virenda Dexit of PBK? ---------- From the Murli points related to this topic it can be understood that Father Shiv does actually enter into the body of His Chariot, but I don't think He takes total control of the Chariot, because it is clear from the Murlis that when knowledge used to be narrated by Father Shiv through the body of Dada Lekhraj, then Dada Lekhraj also used to listen to the Murli. In fact Baba has said in one of the Murlis that the ears of Brahma listen to the Murlis first. Moreover, it is also mentioned in the Murlis that the soul of Brahma also speaks/interferes while the Murli is being narrated by Shiva.

2. Are they at the time actually aware of this..is there any sensation or relinquishing of control of the body? -------- The Murlis say that when Shiv enters into His Chariot, then the Chariot does not know when Shiv enters or departs. There is no physical experience of the entry of Shiv into the body by the Chariot. ·
"Baba does not know how the soul of ShivBaba comes and goes. It is also not true that it (Soul of ShivBaba) remains in this body always. So one must think only about this. Father gives you children such a knowledge which cannot be attained by anyone at any time. ” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 18.8.05, page 1 published by BKs)

3. If Shiva hasn't returned to the Soul World as BKs claim. Does he need to be in a body at all times or is he free to roam the 3 worlds at will. Can he function outside of a physical body as he has no subtle body.--------- As per the Murlis He need not remain in a physical body all the time. He can travel anywhere or enter into anyone. But nobody including the fixed Chariot can claim that Shiv entered into him or her. As regards functioning outside of the physical body, I do not thinks He does/can do anything like giving knowledge outside the body. As regards causing divine visions, I think it could be possible even when he is outside a physical body.
· "Many say that Mama comes in us, ShivBaba comes, but is it that the newer points be narrated only through the fixed body or through anyone else? This cannot happen. Even sisters (bachhiyan) also narrate many kinds of points of their own. So many points appear in the magazine! It is not so, that Mama and Baba come in them, or they cause them to write. No; Father comes here directly; only then do you come here to listen. If Mama and Baba enter into someone, then they can sit there itself and study through them. No, everyone feels attracted to come here. Those who live far away get more attracted.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 27.8.05, page 3 published by BKs)
However, I would obtain approval/further comments from Baba in this regard, especially the last part of the third question.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

[john]

OK
So it cannot be known when Shiva enters or leaves, so how does the Chariot actually know he is there?

[arjun]

Dear brother John,
Om Shanti. I do not remember any Murli point that speaks about the human Chariot coming to know about the entry of Shiv into his body. But there is certainly a point which tells how the children can know about the presence of Father Shiv in the body of the human Chariot. Baba has said that whenever knowledge is being narrated, it can be considered that ShivBaba is speaking. I do not have the exact words of the Murli with me, but if required it can be quoted.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

[john]

Arjun

For me I have seen the Murli quote, but if you want to post it for others. I am just trying to dig a little deeper and get a proper understanding of Shiva and his chariots.

To me if Shiva has been descending or entering into the chariots for some 70 years the whole process still seems a bit vague. Maybe I am not understanding properly or haven't read enough Murlis to properly understand, but judging from the differences in opinion expressed in the ex-BK chat thread I am not the only one.

If at all you are able to get some clarity on this matter from Baba that would be appreciated. As Shiva now enters into his body( as claimed by PBKs) his insights will carry a lot of weight.

Another point is that BKs still claim that Shiva enters into Dadi Gulzar along with Brahma Baba. Now if the senior Dadis and Didis who spent a lot of time with Brahma Baba pre 1969 cannot tell if it's Shiva still entering, then why?

They spent all that time in Shiva's company but now cannot recognise if it is only Brahma Baba entering and giving Avyakt Vanis.

[uddhava]

Om Shanti. I do not remember any Murli point that speaks about the human Chariot coming to know about the entry of Shiv into his body. But there is certainly a point which tells how the children can know about the presence of Father Shiv in the body of the human Chariot. Baba has said that whenever knowledge is being narrated, it can be considered that ShivBaba is speaking.

Dear arjun,

Om Shanti. Does this apply to anyone - I mean if Arjun is narrating knowledge does this mean that ShivBaba is speaking? How do we know who is a Chariot and who is not?

[andrey]

It is that one can understand only by the knowledge that is spoken that this knowledge cannot be spoken /known/ by anyone else but the Supreme Soul the Ocean of knowledge. About the Dadis, i suppose being in Shiva's company is a matter of the intellect. He is called the intellect of the intellectuals. In Murlis it is said there is no difference in the body on entering. Heart starts feeling happy on the basis of knowledge and faith - yes it is Supreme Soul that speaks, is not it? This is a matter of the understanding in the intelellct, is not it?

It is said that people are confused looking at the ordinary form. Baba also says about 2 kinds of brahmins. Ones that are attracted to the body, the Chariot are brahmins born through the lap, and ones that are attracted to the knowledge emerging through the mouth are mouth born brahmins. Which are true brahmins? Brahmins born through the mouth. They follow the path of knowledge and have faith in the versions of the Supreme Soul whether there is a Chariot or not. But yes, there is definitely one chosen Chariot that is permanent. God is one so his child will be said one.

From the Trimurti the biggest deity is Shankar. A deity is needed to transform humans into deities, as Brahmins are from Brahma, engineers from an engineer etc. See i only speak what baba has thought. Is this knowledge ordinary? Can anyone give it? But Shiva cannot be separated from Prajapita. Make him just a point and you lose your inheritance, because how would just a point give an inheritance. He needs a body through which to give the inheritance. Father gives the inheritance. Brahma is Mother.

Now three parts are played in one Father who sowed the seed of knowledge in the beginning of the Yagya in the womb like intellect of Brahma clarifying his visions, who is also at the end giving the inheritance. Teacher to clarify the poetry - Murli and prose - Avyakt Vani. And Satguru to give liberation and salvation. I suppose you know what is liberation and salvation. Baba has explained. And there are many more experienced, and knowledgefull brothers and sisters who can explain better.

[andrey]

The knowledge that Shiva would speak would be new. All others would just narrate the same old things.

[john]

And there are many more experienced, and knowledgefull brothers and sisters who can explain better.

Yes, if you could get them to explain that would be great. A nice simple clear explanation would be nice.

Did Brahma know Shiva had entered apart from the fact that he spoke Gyan?
Did he move his own vocal chords to speak or were they moved for him by Shiva?
Did brahma assume it was Shiva speaking because it was knowledge he hadn't previously known even though it was he (brahma) doing the talking or did Shiva actually take control of his body and the soul of Brahma was passive in the background?

[andrey]

Dear brother,
But you ask as if I am Brahma, how could i know. One should ask either Shiva or Brahma about how does it feel. I know from Murlis that Brahma also listens, and interferes, but we should consider that it is always ShivBaba speaking.

[john]

Dear Audrey

But you ask as if I am Brahma, how could i know

If that is the case that you don't know, why give an answer?

I know that Arjun gets answers clarified from Baba, which is why earlier in the thread I asked if it was possible for him to get clarification on this point

[andrey]

Dear brother,

It is because would you have faith when you receive the answer and would the answer matter. Just trying to understand why is it important. Let's say he takes full control. OK. Now lets say he does not. In the Murlis it is said he does not ride the bull all day long. He can come and go wherever he wishes evenBrahma cannot know. Yes i recall something about him realising he did not have this knowledge before. But i doubt him feeling something special. He /Shiva/ is said to be very subtle.

All trance matters Baba has said to be of no benefit. Soul is called mind -intellect. Shiva is called akarata. One who does not do anything. Brothers should corrct if I am wrong but it is some of an answer is not it. It seems he is not so easy to understand. I saw someone sayin he is just a point. OK, but where did you know about him being a point from He hasintrodused himself but did he do from up above. No, he needed a body. Now would the task stop in between. He sais I am responsible for creating heaven. So we should claim our inheritance from him, is not it.

[john]

Dear Audrey

It is because would you have faith when you receive the answer and would the answer matter

I don't think it's a good idea for you to be saying would an answer matter. To you it doesn't seem to be a point worth asking, but really it's up to each individual soul to consider what is important for them to ask and understand.

Also I don't think asking questions is a matter of faith or not, as baba has said this is not a path of blind faith, but the path of true knowledge and understanding. What I particularly like about the PBK attitude is that all questions are welcome, which is a refreshing contrast to the BK experience.

My point of asking on this forum is that some souls might have an insight into this matter that I haven't discovered yet. Some of the answers you give are near to the point, but don't hit the nail on the head so to speak

[arjun]

Dear Uddhava,
Om Shanti. It is nice to see your writing after a long time. You wrote:
"Does this apply to anyone - I mean if Arjun is narrating knowledge does this mean that ShivBaba is speaking? How do we know who is a Chariot and who is not?"

First aspect is to recognize the Chariot of Father Shiv and the next aspect is to know when Father Shiv is speaking through the Chariot.

To recognize the Chariot we have to study the Murlis, Avyakt Vanis and also undergo the Advance Course. On the basis of knowledge you can recognize the source of knowledge. There are other factors also like the physical and spiritual age, physical and spiritual place of birth, the characters, lifestyle, language etc. Hints about these factors have been given in the Murlis. I and many other PBKs have developed the faith that in the present Confluence Age the lokik (worldly) name of the Chariot of Father Shiv is Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. His aloukik (spiritual) name is Shankar, who is going to be revealed as Prajapita. Many souls may disagree with me, but they are free to have their own opinions. I would respect their feelings.

Once you recognize the source of knowledge, you can know when Father Shiv is present in Him on the basis of the Murli point that was referred, i.e. whenever knowledge is being narrated through that Chariot.

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

[arjun]

Dear John Bhai,
Om Shanti. I am conveying your questions to Baba for His answers.
As soon as I receive them, I shall post them on this forum.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun