Remembering Shiva

[john]

As a BK I was taught remember Shiva as a point of light in Paramdham.

At different periods of the Yagya it was taught in different ways. As Arjun pointed out ... as a Shivling, a thumb, point of light, point of light in Brahmas forehead. I am trying to understand why all these different forms have come about and why.

• Is it the children who reveal these forms(through individual churnings) or is it Shiva?
  Is the Gyan only taught as per the ability of the Chariot/followers to grasp?
  Therefore what I was taught as a BK did it come from Murli/Shrimat or did it come from Dadis/Didis?

[arjun]

Dear John,
Om Shanti. These different forms of remembrance that were prevalent at various times from 1936 to 1969 were not the inventions of any BK, but was taught by Baba Himself depending on the grasping power of the children from time to time.

Before the beginning of the Yagya, the concept of God in the predominantly Hindu Indian subcontinent was either as a Shivling or in the form of various deities. So first of all, God made his mouthborn progeny realize that God was in the form of a Shivling and all other deities were souls and not Gods and that they were only deities before 84 births. Even in order to make the then mouthborn children realize the Godly task, He had to cause many divine visions to most of them.
When children understood the difference between God Shiv and the deities, then He explained them that God was not as large as a Shivling but was in the form of a thumb (angushthaakaar).

Later on when the Brahmin children became much more matured in the path of knowledge, He told them that God was not even in the shape of a thumb but only a point of light who, although a resident of the Soul World, comes down to enter and reside in the middle of the forehead of his human Chariot like all other souls. But He only takes loan of the human Chariot. Until Brahma Baba was alive, BKs used to remember Shiv through his body, but after his demise, the senior BKs started teaching the BKs to remember God Shiv as a point of light in the Soul World, since they believed that He had returned to the Soul World and there was no human Chariot left in this world. Even though they believe Shiv comes in the body of Gulzar Dadiji, they never remember Him through her body. Some BKs, due to their sanskars of past or present birth may prefer to remember Shiv as a point of light in the middle of the forehead of the non-living picture of Brahma Baba.

Since 1976 all those souls who started realizing that God Shiv was still on this Earth, but in another human Chariot (i.e. Shankar) they started remembering Him through the body of Shankar as per the directions given in the Murlis.

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

[atma]

Practical use of the knowledge for some this knowledge might seem to be to complicated from their experiences with their bk understandings. So they might wonder how can I apply this in the real world? How can I work, have family relations, and be involved with society?

Baba has said this is to be Easy Raja Yoga. The first point is Yaad. Now the question comes up what are we remembering?

atma

[john]

These different forms of remembrance that were prevalent at various times from 1936 to 1969 were not the inventions of any BK, but was taught by Baba Himself depending on the grasping power of the children from time to time.

Do you have any Murli quotes or points where any of these other forms of remembrance are given?

I have read that it was after the churnings of children these forms were changed. So I am wondering if Shiva has actually given any other description in Murlis apart from a point of light

they started remembering Him through the body of Shankar as per the directions given in the Murlis.

Do you mean Sakar Murlis or Murli clarification?

[arjun]

Dear John,
Om Shanti. I have definitely seen the Murli points about the remembrance in the form of a thumb and as a Shivling. But I will have to search for the related Murli point.
Meanwhile I have a revised Murli point narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba, which is related to method of remembrance:

· "One must remember Baba every second. It is not a question of sitting in faith (neshtha) at one place. One must be in remembrance even while walking and moving.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 01.10.05, page 3 published by BKs)

The above Murli point points out that how children had become practiced to remembering ShivBaba by taking drishti from nimit sisters while sitting at one place (neshtha). In order to change this practice, Baba must have guided children saying that one can be in remembrance even while walking and moving.

As regards PBKs remembering Father Shiv through the body of Shankar, when I said that it was on the basis of Murlis, I meant Sakar Murlis and not the Murli clarifications. But even the Murli clarifications guide the PBKs to this form of remembrance only. Although in the Sakar Murlis published by BKs you won't find a mention that one should remember Shiv through Shankar, but you will definitely find the mention of remembrance through the corporeal Chariot, i.e. Prajapita Brahma. It is just because Shankar has not yet been revealed to the world as Prajapita that I mentioned PBKs started remembering Shiv through the medium of Shankar. Actually, I should have written 'Corporeal medium' instead of 'Shankar'.

With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

[john]

Do you not know it by heart? If there was such a point that has made an impression one would be able to tell instantly. Of course I can wait, but as time goes on and no such point comes up, the statement proofs itself false.

Some examples to start with which can be found on the up/downloads section of this website. In revised Sakar Murli 25/03/2003, which can be found on this website it says, "Shiv Baba now says: Remember me in the incorporeal world." So how can a body be remembered in the incorporeal world? Further on near the end of the Murli it says, "In the Golden Age, the subjects too are very happy. They have their own palaces, cows and bulls etc." So it is saying 'in the Golden Age' there are palaces.

Also in the Avyakt Vani 14/03/2006 on this website are references to Father Brahma and Jagadamba, but it appears to be refering to Mama Om Radhey as Jagadamba. On page 2 last paragraph its says, "to be humble and speak pure words just as you saw Father Brahma and Jagadamba did."

Which Jagadamba would the BKs have seen?

[andrey]

"Shiv Baba now says: Remember me in the incorporeal world."

When Shiv has said that He Himself has been in the body of Brahma Baba, isn’t that so? So, why does He say remember Me there, nevertheless I’m here? The Incorporeal World is "there", where there is the 'incorporeal stage'. Such a stage is not visible through the body of Brahma Baba, because the role of the Mother is corporeal. The Incorporeal World and Subtle Worlds are not a matter of worlds up above. It is a signal to the future part of the Incorporeal Father. Incorporeal does not mean without a body. Incorporeal means incorporeal stage of the intellect whilst in corporeal body.

It is said in the Murli : You children will bring Paramdham to this world. This world will become as of such a stage as Paramdham. In this world there are corporeal bodies. The body is also a home of the soul. The home for all the souls will be this body where the Father of all the souls will be there. Nirakari, nirvikari, nirehenkari. When we become nirakari we authomatically become nirvikari and nirehenkari. Where is there mention of vice or ego in the incorporeal world. Souls are there like non-living entities. All souls go to Paramdham. Some go there after leaving the body, some go there with the stage of their intellect.

"In the Golden Age, the subjects too are very happy. They have their own palaces, cows and bulls etc."

" Palace " mean a gathering. The gathering of kings and the gathering of subjects is different. In the Golden Age there is one king and one queen, all the rest are subjects. This is established in the Confluence Age. The cow is living human cow, a mata or kanya. Bull is also living. There is no need for buildings in Satyug. There it is constantly Springtime. Nature is a servant itself. There is no work. Everything is ready made. Baba says there even the Sun won't set, like now there is 6 months day at the Poles.

"to be humble and speak pure words just as you saw Father Brahma and Jagadamba did."

To whom is this addressed, “ ... just as you saw… ” ? Om Radhe / Mama Saraswati Jagadamba is a title holder. Father Brahma / Brahma Baba / Dada Lekraj is a title holder. The Dadis know the original part players. There may be even photos. In the Advance Party there are also Dadis and Didis.

[john]

Sakar Murli 4/12/02 available from this site

You say: Shiv Baba, I belong to You. Your intellect’s Yoga goes up above, because Baba Himself says: Remember Me, and your sins will be absolved. Stay on this pilgrimage. For instance, even if this Baba goes somewhere, you still have to remember Shiv Baba. Shiv Baba went to Delhi and Kanpur in this Chariot. In your intellect, let there be the remembrance of Shiv Baba. You mustn’t stay down below. Your intellect should remain up above. The soul remembers the Father, the Supreme Soul. The Father says: My residence is up above. You mustn’t wander around after Me here. Remember Me up there. You souls also reside there with the Father. It isn’t that the Father’s residence is separate from yours; no. Make these things sit in your intellect.

This part of Murli doesn't sound like remember Shiva in the body.

In all Murlis I have read there is not much reference to how rememberance should be done, i.e. where is Shiva to be remembered. Yet I don't recall any points with reference to remembering Shiva in a body.

Are there any such Sakar Murli points?

[aimée]

For me, to remember Baba up above means in the nirakari stage, to be detached from the body and the world. Otherwise we have to remember a point of light. If we wander around after him here, then we are stuck in remembering the Chariot, DL or Virendra Dev Dixit it is the same. If the Father's residence in not separate from ours, as far as I know we are now living in the corporeal world, where we have to transform ourselves, so Baba should be with us to help us accomplish the task, no?

[surya]

How to remember? Who to remember? The most important questions ...

I heard Baba saying in one VCD that He is not just "Baba" but ShivBaba! Because anyone in India can have the title of Baba.

And ShivBaba already said that if He is in Kampil that means He is not in Paramdham. So after knowing where he stays why would anyone direct any thoughts to Paramdham?

surya

[raviraj]

You mustn’t stay down below. Your intellect should remain up above.

Bhaiji, in my opinion, when a souls attains the stage of ‘die a living death’ numberwise, when he is detached, his intellect doesn’t stay down below. Our intellect going up above means our stage inside going up above.

When ShivBaba says , ‘Remember me up there’. It is not the matter of a place but remembering him attaining that stage of being up, being elevated. Among the three deities, Shankar is shown the most close to shantidham (Paramdham) or the house of Shiv. Because dev dev mahadev Shankar is always shown in nirakar stage (lost in remebrance). It is not the place where he goes and remember. It is the stage he possess and remembers.

If the Sakar Murlis are taken literally then there will be no trace of advance knowledge. Same had happened with the soul of brahma. He couldn’t understood the unlimited meaning of the words spoken by Shiv through his own mouth. Through brahma shiv never said directly about the future part (second murti). Therefore, it was said 'abhi Gita Gyan Amrit nehi kahenge, it cannot be said Gita Gyan Amrit(nectar)now.’ Whatever words spoken through brahma, ShivBaba says, is only Gita Gyan. 'Amrit nekalneke liye mathna padta ha', to produce nectar it is necessary to churn.

I remember a Sakar Murli (26-7-65) saying, ' you have to come to me naked ... we cannot meet with bodies.' the literal sense is simple. But in unlimited sense, it means we (ShivBaba and bacche) cannot meet with dehabhan, though both the souls are in the bodies. coming to ShivBaba naked doesn't mean without body. Without body a soul even doesn't realise 'I am a soul'. In bk terms, Murlis are just the reference to bindu, bindu and just bindu. But it is very hard to fit the idea in the intellect that, ShivBindu has to become ShivBaba in corporeal so that his children could come to meet him, hug him, dine with him. When ShivBindu becomes ShivBaba, he listens to his children, solves their problems, gives dristi; the bindu alone is jadwat.

[john]

I heard Baba saying in one VCD that He is not just "Baba" but ShivBaba! Because anyone in India can have the title of Baba.

And yet earlier Arjuna is making the point that Virendra Dev Dixit makes no claims to be ShivBaba, it is just PBKs making this claim.

Dear Raviraj
Could you please when putting points in Hindi, make sure they are clearly also put in English, otherwise your great work may be missed by the predominantly English speaking users of the forum.

As to all replies: Thank you all for your points, I shall be doing some more churning on the matter before replying.

[arjun]

And yet earlier Arjuna is making the point that Veerendra Dev Dixit makes no claims to be ShivBaba, it is just PBKs making this claim.

Dear brother,

I don't know the VCD which Surya Bhai is claiming to have heard Baba saying so. I haven't heard any VCD/Murli in which he has claimed himself to be ShivBaba. I have even quoted the excerpts of a Murli on the topic of 'Shiv and ShivBaba'.

I would request Surya Bhai to kindly quote the VCD number in which he has heard Baba making such a claim.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[surya]

Hi All,

It was a Discussion with foreign PBKs, where Veerendra Dev Dixit mentioned that we should remember ShivBaba. He (Veerendra Dev Dixit) is not claiming to be ShivBaba; he only said that we should remember ShivBaba! If we say that we are remembering Baba - would be just common thing to say in India, so that’s why we remember ShivBaba.

Hope this is clear now. I will get the VCD no. and post here soon.

surya

[john]

Murli quote

My residence is up above. You mustn’t wander around after Me here. Remember Me up there

What does it mean 'my residence is up above'?

Otherwise we have to remember a point of light

I am not sure what you mean here? Do you mean Shiva shouldn't be remembered as a point of light?

And ShivBaba already said that if He is in Kampil that means He is not in Paramdham. So after knowing where he stays why would anyone direct any thoughts to Paramdham?

Yes, I can see what you mean here. Let's speculate and say BrahmaBaba was still in Sakar, would the BKs now be teaching remember Shiva in Paramdham?