On the Subject of Sorrow

[atma]

Bhai,

On the subject of sorrow.

A mother and child go into a store and the child gets fixed on a particular toy. The toy is very nice but costs $50.00 the mother has $50.00 for groceries until her next pay day. So she knows that if I buy this toy we will have nothing to eat for a week. The child insists on having the toy and after the mother politely refusing many times the child starts to cry because he is not getting the toy. Did the mother cause sorrow?

You are invited over to lokik family and they are having dinner in which you have been invited they forgot you are a vegetarian and did not prepare anything. The mother insists that you have some of the meat and yet you politely decline. The mother feels sad because you are not having some of her food. Did you cause sorrow?

There are many more examples you can give but here are a few common ones.

• So not causing sorrow what does that really mean?

Is everyone a pure soul?

atma

[john]

The mother feels sad because you are not having some of her food. Did you cause sorrow?

I say the mother causes her own sorrow.

If the vegetarian gives in and eats meat he causes sorrow because of the messages he gives. Which are:-
1. I don't stick to principles and have no strength of character.
2. By eating meat the person is subtly saying it is OK for others to do so.

[bansy]

Here's my answer, applicable in lokik or alokik situations.

Did the mother cause sorrow?

Depends, say if she had promised the child for a toy but refused then that is dishonesty. If she has no other reason other than honestly knowing there is no other extra money, she is okay. The child doesn't understand, for the time being, that food is more important than a toy.

mother feels sad because you are not having some of her food.

If you do not tell your mother the reason why you don't eat meat, then that's dishonest. If you tell her, and she doesn't understand, then it is okay. Though you'd best try to calm the situation with love.

Sorrow is an outcome based on at least one of the parties not understanding a given situation. Usually young children cry a lot as their mental faculties are not ready to cope with situations. Adults feel sorrow when they are not readily accepting a situation. Once understood, no more crying. Raja Yoga is supposed to make you understand YOUR situation first, before applying it practically.

How not to cause sorrow ? Well, just be as loving and honest, because when you're not, then you cry. That is your part and role. You cannot play the part of the other.

Nice Q, maybe there could be a thread for "practical situations" where members can share what they would do in such situations. Without having to give spiritual quotes.

[andrey]

It’s a matter of how we take it, isn’t it? Sometimes we don’t know what we have given, but when we take it as sorrow we take sorrow.

It depends on the situation how one should act. Om Radhe Mama has been asked how does she speak such sweet Vani /versions/ and has been replying that she does not think in advance what to say. Baba /Virendra Dev Dixit/ also says we should just be in rememberance, feel the pulse etc.

I have had a situation where I have eaten, but have taken it as a test to eat and not feel bad. At other times I have been refusing, not feeling bad.

Yes, many will come to say for eg. give us poison and will feel bad if we don’t so what should we do?

Of course the more we stick to Shrimat without fear the better, otherwise we enter the path of excuses.

[atma]

Bhai’s,

You are invited to a funeral and you see the sorrow that is surrounding the event. What do you do? What do you say to the party who has lost a loved one? Do you say I am sorry like everyone else?

Your niece comes to you she is 11 years old and she starts to tell you about what she plans to do in the future up until her retirement in her 60’s what do you tell her? Do you tell her about the transformation?

Bhai John, I agree very much. I also agree that eating the meat you take on the sorrow from the animals as well.

Bhai bansy honesty that is a interesting subject. Baba mentioned in a Murli about a butcher looking for the cow (that he wants butchered) he comes to ask you did you see the cow which way did the cow go? You know that the cow has gone a certain way. What do you say to the butcher? Do you tell him? Will you be honest?

Bhai Andrey yes checking the pulse is so important. I believe we have a very important task in providing this knowledge in appropriate dosages. Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) mentions this often. I am not typing about taking sorrow but giving it there is a difference is not there?

So how do we not give sorrow?

atma

[andrey]

It's also a matter of temporary and permanent happiness and sorrow. If it is a temporary happiness but gives sorrow for the whole times it is counted as sorrow. If it is a temporary sorrow that gives happiness for all the time it is counted as happiness. How do we don't give sorrow...we should give permanent happiness for all times instead. This happiness is conected with soul-conciousness. If we are not in soul-conciousness we don't give happiness. Many times it is said in the AV that the easiest effort is to give and to receive blessings.

[bansy]

Bhai bansy honesty that is a interesting subject. Baba mentioned in a Murli about a butcher looking for the cow (that he wants butchered) he comes to ask you did you see the cow which way did the cow go? You know that the cow has gone a certain way. What do you say to the butcher? Do you tell him? Will you be honest?

Before Gyan, I would have told the butcher to go the wrong way. But now with Gyan, yes, I will tell the butcher which way the cow went, because my soul has karma with the butcher's soul directly so I give him the right answer. The butcher's soul has karma with the cow's soul directly, so that is up to that soul to deal with it. If you do not tell the butcher, he will come back to you again and again, he may even butcher you instead :lol: . You may feel this situation give "poor cow", but maybe the cow, if it could speak, would reply "poor you". We are human souls, not animal souls. Would your reply be the same if this butcher was not a beef butcher but a chicken butcher ? Just because it is a cow (which I understand has a sacred importance in India) does not change the human soul. Nowadays, people treat their animals and pets more important than human beings. How degraded.

Many people would agree children are quite pure. So if you asked a 3 year old, where is the butcher, most likely he or she would tell you. There is no impure thought about the killing of an animal, that is an other event later, and actually you do not know if the butchering will happen.

What is your reply ? And how would Baba answer this too ?

(PS : I would like to know how the cow became such a sacred animal in India. Anyone know, especially those members from India ?)

[john]

And how would Baba answer this too ?

I think Baba would say, divert the butcher in the wrong way and this then becomes one of the most perplexing things.
What is truth?

Cows are a remembrance of the mothers in the Yagya.

[bansy]

I think Baba would say, divert the butcher in the wrong way and this then becomes one of the most perplexing things.

It must have happened at least once (on date: Copper Age plus 2 seconds), that's why the whole world is in confusion now.

Yes, cow - mother - milk.

[fluffy bunny]

Before Gyan, I would have told the butcher to go the wrong way. But now with Gyan, yes, I will tell the butcher which way the cow went, because my soul has karma with the butcher's soul directly so I give him the right answer.

That's a funny answer, if an abusive husband came looking for his run away wife, would you tell them where she went just because you had karma with the husband? What obligation do you have to answer any question the butcher asks you? This issue of causing/receiving sorrow, ties in with one about karma in general.

• Where is karma?

I ask that specifically. We talk as if karma exists as a thing somewhere. Does it? And if so where? Is it all written down on some etheric substance external to us [how do we understand the Akashic records by Gyan?] or are we carrying it and is it causing its effect internally to the soul only. Is it truly existant or is it merely positive social control, part of our mental programming?

We have an incredibly simplistic, mechanical, 1+1 type understanding of karma which is good as a means of social order control and order. Personally, I think this reality is far more complex and random and we far more subject to other and greater forces. If you believe in karma does it effect you more than someone that does not believe in karma? Or does karma has some sort of unique and objective token value system whereby each specific intention + activity = x%. If so, how? Could it not just be socially construed conscience, e.g. if I am told it is wrong to the point I carry that thought and I feel guilty, and if I am full of guilt I sub-consciously create situations to punish me?

I would have stopped the butcher and engaged him in a discussion of Godly virtues and Knowledge, and given him a leaflet to attend the local centre for a free Self Management Leadership 7 days course thereby ensure that both of us shared the highest karma ... and the cow escaped to live another day.

So, if an monkey or cat is going to have its conscious brains and eyes poked about by a shampoo company scientist, is it bad karma for the animal rights activist to break in and steal the animals to return them to their natural dharma? Actually, I would have stolen the cow and given it away to some vegetarian famers who promised to look after it nicely in hope that when the soldiers came for me, someone else would help me escape. Cows have no karma with frying pans.

[bansy]

We have an incredibly simplistic, mechanical, 1+1 type understanding of karma which is good as a means of social order control and order. Personally, I think this reality is far more complex and random and we far more subject to other and greater forces.

Yes, I think it is all too complex, so prefer to simplify it without adding to it. Let's assume that day 1 when the drama wheel began, there was no positive or negative karma. Everything was nice and peaceful. Karma in the world begins to accumulate (karma in the sense there are the sum of imbalances due to all our impurities, the ying-Yang begins to get lopsided). Now fast forward 5000 years later, the permutations of karma are infinite. My karma is with human beings, but maybe we've also had past karma with animal souls too, throw in a few cockroaches and mosquitos that we've squished. There is enough to deal with with human souls, without the rest of the "nature". Some souls have obviously had more interactions with animal souls than others. So do you also want to carry that too, the animal had nothing to do with me in the first place, but man did. Now if the cow had asked me, hey mum, point the other way to the guy chasing me, then that event would have taken place first.

My answer is that the karma with the cow is beyond our means, okay, it would be nice to save the animal, but the butcher goes home crying because the cow's escaped and jumped over the moon, the man's family starves because he loses his job and has no money, and it's all your fault. And all you were doing was waiting for the bus, and it was pouring rain, without an umbrella. What miserable luck :P

I would have stopped the butcher and engaged him in a discussion of Godly virtues and Knowledge, and given him a leaflet to attend the local centre for a free Self Management Leadership

This is a nice answer. But if this butcher did not catch the cow, another probably would.

I just feel we are never taught how to deal with nature, because we haven't learnt to deal with humans first.

So what exactly is karma ? I would say simply it is just actions that you have done that gets accumulated in your account, the banking section of the soul. When you die, you bring this bag to God at the pearly gates and see if He checks you in for the flight to Paramdham. Or you going to have to walk up theose stairs all the way. Yes, it is a simplistic view, but as no-one can prove it, and all it seems to be is simply action<-->reaction / cause<-->effect, then do good actions, good causes, or don't do anything at all.

Humans have no rights over animals but we sure like to interfere with their karma.

[bansy]

if an abusive husband came looking for his run away wife,

This situation is different because the wife is a human soul.

[john]

but the butcher goes home crying because the cow's escaped and jumped over the moon, the man's family starves because he loses his job and has no money, and it's all your fault. And all you were doing was waiting for the bus, and it was pouring rain, without an umbrella. What miserable luck

Or the butcher went and got another job that did not involve killing and thus his bad karma was halted.

his is a nice answer. But if this butcher did not catch the cow, another probably would.

OK but at least you haven't contributed to the killing of the cow, which means you don't accrue any bad karma.

[fluffy bunny]

This situation is different because the wife is a human soul.

Why?

Animals have souls and even animal souls have karma. This even gets referred to in Murlis, a reference to horse where are kept and looked after better than humans [ - although taking the PBK view into consideration now this might be allegorical ].

This might even lead one on to ask, how do animals perform karma that takes them into the Golden Age versus others only ending up as beef burgers in the Iron Age. It might lead to de-bunking the whole idea of soul, karma and the Cycle. This is going off topic but where is the dividing line between human soul and animal?

Does a physically and mentally handicapped human being of lower intelligence than a monkey still "do karma" and the monkey not? And if so, how and when do they do karma to escape their condition which was 'obviously' "caused by the sorrow they caused others in their last life".

I just feel we are never taught how to deal with nature, because we haven't learnt to deal with humans first.

I think we should give up on human beings and focus on dealing with nature. This is where the BKWSU idea of a cull of 6 Billion of them does not sound like such a bad idea :shock: ! Actually, and this relates to the question, when the man's family starves because he loses his job and has no money, it's all to my merit because I help save them from an even worse fortune at a later date. The connection being that when the mother makes the child cry, it is actuallly helping it.

Sometimes ... often ... a lot ... doing good karma causes problems and reactions and if you are not causing reactions then you are doing nothing right. Especially in an upside down wrong world.

[bansy]

bansy wrote:
This situation is different because the wife is a human soul.

ex-l replied:
Why?

e.g. Because she happens to be my older sister.

What I am trying to say is when situations involve humans they involve you. When situations involve animals, you're going to have to behave and think in their shoes (hooves), say a cow or monkey, to be able to answer it. That way, you can get a full and balanced picture. Reminds me, I quite like to the cult movie Planet of the Apes....

Coincidentally, you've kind of touched upon a thread http://www.brahmakumaris.info/bb/viewtopic.php?t=268 Does an ameoba have a soul ?