Churning of soul Brother 'sita'

[mbbhat]

the meaning of the ling and the jaladhari - we are all Parvatis and it is a matter of the 'yoni' of our intellect. The ling is present there in the form of remembrance that pervades the mind of all people in the form of "Remember me alone".

Ling is also worshiped in hand. Some wear ling as a pendant in a garland. So, it is difficult for me to believe the above 'yoni' concept.

I believe the stool on which the 'ling' is placed is just a way to give seat to the 'ling', as well as for the water to flow out of the 'ling' when abhishek (the water) is poured onto the 'ling'.

But, even your belief definitely has some role to play in drama.

[sita]

Ling is also worshiped in hand.

Hand is also a symbol of the mind and intellect, we catch conceptions with the hand of our intellect. The meaning of jaladhari is also the one who holds water that is water of knowledge that is again done with the intellect.

[mbbhat]

Hand is also a symbol of the mind and intellect, we catch conceptions with the hand of our intellect.

If you believe it is about mind and intellect, then OK. But, if you believe ling and yoni here represent part of human organ, then difficult to believe.

[sita]

Jaladhari is the symbol of the intellect and the ling represents the remembrance, the form, the conception, the influence of God.

[mbbhat]

Jaladhari is the symbol of the intellect and the ling represents the remembrance, the form, the conception, the influence of God.

Then seems to be OK. But, at some places, PBKs have taken the meaning for human organ parts.

[sita]

The ling is a symbol of the body God enters, because the remembrence is about that time. That's why they draw like face on it. If God enters a body then all the organs is present in that body. The idea about Shankar destroying the vice of lust is because there is no attraction through any organ of the body.

[mbbhat]

The ling is a symbol of the body God enters,

No Murli point says this. In fact, they go against it.

Just one example-

SM 15-8-81(1):- Shiv ki pooja bhi hoti hai. Sab jagah ling ko poojte hain. LING KA NAAM HI HAI SHIV. Vah gyaan ka sagar hai to Shivachary ho gaya. -168-

= ....The name of ling is Shiv.... [Note- not said as even ShivBaba].

SM 28-1-82(1):- Baba ne samjhaayaa thaa ek hai rudr gyaan yagy. Doosraa hai rudr yagy. Usmey khaas banaaras ke braahmanon, panditon ko bulaate hain. Rudr yagy ki pooja ke liye. BANAARAS HAI HEE SHIV KE RAHNE KAA STHAAN. Shivkashi kahte hain. Asal naam kaashi thaa. Phir angrezon ne Banaras naam rakhaa. Varnaasi naam abhi rakhaa hai. Bhaktimarg may gyaan to hai nahin atma parmatma kaa. POOJAA DONON KI ALAG2 KARTE HAIN. Ek bada Shivling banate hain. Baaki chote2 saaligraam anek banate hain. Tum jaante ho humaari atma kaa naam hai saaligraam aur Baba ka naam hai Shiv. Saaligraam sab ek size ke banaate hain. To barobar Baap aur bête ke sambandh hai. Atma Yaad karti hai Hey Parampita Parmatma. -35- [ShivBaba, yagy, WOT, information]

= ...The name of the soul is saligram and that of Father/baba is Shiv. [No where it is said name of body is saligram or ling].

SM 10-3-82(1):- Atma jab sharir may pravesh karti hai to andar churpur hoti hai. Maaloom padtaa hai andar atma ne pravesh kiyaa hai, bachche ke organs chalney lage. Yah baatein achchi reeti samajhni hai aur jo bhi manushy vah koyi aisey nahin kahte hain ki hum atma tumko samjhaate hain. VAH PRASIDDH HAIN SHARIR SE. YAH ShivBaba BIGAR SHARIR PRASIDDH HAI. Vichitr hai na.Unko apnaa sharir nahin hai. SHARIRDHAARI KO KAB BHAGAVAAN NAHIN KAHNAA CHAAHIYE. STHOOL VA SOOKSHM KOYI BHI HO. Atma in organs se Yaad karti hai Parampita Parmatma ko. Vah to baithkar manushyon ke banaaye shaastr sunaate hain. Yahaan yah nayi baath Bhagavaanuvaach. Bhagavaan koun hain jisko sabhi bhakt hee Bhagavaan2 kah Yaad karte hain. BVS ke to naam jaante hain. HEY BRAHMA, HEY Vishnu KAH PUKAARTE HAIN. VAH HAIN DEVTAAYEIN. UNKO Yaad KARNE SE NIRAAKAAR HEE Yaad AATE HAIN. NIRAAKAAR PARMAATMAA KAA HEE BANDAGI KARTE HAIN. Vah kahte hain main bhi atma, parantu Supreme hun. Meraa bhi chitr banaate hain, Tum aatmavon kaa bhi chitr banaate hain. MANDIRON MAY BADAA SHIVLING BHI RAKHTE HAIN AUR CHOTE2 SAALIGRAAM BHI JINSEY HEE SIDDH HOTAA HAI KI HUM AATMAAYEIN HAIN, EK PARMAATMAA HAI. Baap hameshaa bachchon se badaa hotaa hai. Isliye badaa ling banaate hain. Vaastav may main koyi size may badaa nahin hun. -76- [ShivBaba, BVS, WOT]


= They/rest are famous through body. But, this ShivBaba is famous without body. He is vichitr, is it not. He has no body. Bodily personalities can never be called as Bhagavaan, either physical or subtle......In mandirs, Shivling is kept as well as small saligrams. From this it becomes clear that we all are souls who belong to one Supreme Soul.


But, you may have this belief and this wrong shooting should also happen in drama. So, it is perfectly alright.

[sita]

No, it is said in the Murli that the memorial of the Supreme Soul is the diamond that is put in the Shivling, the star. You can then see the ling as representing Paramdham. As Paramdham is to be established here and God manifests through a body I see the ling as representing the body in which he enters that has no form, because it is not important. Not that it is not important which is that body, we have to know it, but that we should not concentrate on the body, but on the soul, the diamond in it.

In the Advanced knowledge it is also mentioned that the ling is formless, because it represents the stage of the soul, the incorporeal stage in which all the sense organs disappear. The Supreme Soul does not have his own body, awareness of the senses, so even when he is in a body he does not have awareness of them. This conception is represented by the ling.

Further if we take the ling as representing an organ of the body it is also to convey a message. In the same way as the dirty pictures on the Surya temple in Konark are dirty to the viewer with a dirty mind, the ling is also worshiped for its purity. The idea behind it is that just as the sanyasis used to follow limited renunciation, they moved away from the household so that they don't have their senses troubled, because they were not able to control their senses through their mind. Then Baba has given us the true definition of purity within the household, that we have to control our mind. Still if we are to go into vice our mind will be disturbed, whilst the mind of the Supreme Soul is not disturbed even in this case, as he has no awareness of the body and is thoughtless, he has no mind, he is peaceful in any circumstances for which to an ordinary human mind to remain peaceful is impossible.

[sita]

An interesting reference about destruction in 1976 from VCD 1150.

"You children explain: Now this particular religion is being established. Particular means? The Ancient Deity Religion is being established. The new world will be established and the old world will be destroyed within eight years, meaning in the year 76. So, did it happen? It did not? Baba spoke a lie? (Someone said: No.) Baba did not speak a lie either; what is this? (Student: The destruction of the world of Brahmins will take place.) Yes, Baba speaks to the unlimited children in an unlimited sense. He didn’t speak about the limited world. In the unlimited world of Brahmins that is established through Brahma, Brahmins like Ravan and Kumbhakarna also entered and elevated Brahmins like Vashishth and Vishwamitra1 also entered. So, who will be destroyed within eight years? Consider the Brahmins like Ravan and Kumbhakarna who are present in the world of Brahmins in large numbers to be destroyed. All these are dead. These people who follow the knowledge are not alive. Are they all dead or alive? All of them are dead. So, you children explain that this particular religion will be established. Which religion will be established in 76? Will the Ancient Deity Religion be established practically or in the intellect? This map will be drawn in the area in the form of the intellect, in someone’s intellect. A definite map of who will rule in the new world will be drawn. Who will rule in the gathering of the new world of the Brahmins which will be established after the year 76? There will be the rule of the souls who are to become Lakshmi and Narayan; and what about everyone else? Everyone else will be destroyed. Om Shanti."

[sita]

KARMATEET STAGE
• Not that Mama and Baba have become complete. The complete stage will be achieved only in the end. Presently nobody can call himself complete. (14.11.78)
• Now nobody has become complete flower. That is the Karmateet stage (a stage where one is not in body consciousness although physically performing actions) or soul conscious stage. That will be achieved only in the end. (8.10.78)
• Until one attains the Karmateet stage, some or the other mistake keeps happening through thoughts, words or deeds. The Karmateet stage is attained only in the end.(6.11.77, pg.2)
• Nobody has become complete in 16 celestial arts, until one continues to make efforts (purusharth). Nobody has the courage to say that he/she has become complete in 16 celestial arts. Nobody can become. This will happen only in the end. Although someone may remain awake day and night, but they cannot become complete. If anyone becomes complete now, he/she will have to leave the body and sit in the Subtle Region. (27.9.77, pg.3)
• When the number wise Karmateet stage is achieved the war will also begin. (22.6.75, pg.3)
• This (Brahma) has also not become complete. Until he attains the Karmateet stage, I shall continue to teach. You will also continue to study and teach. (26.6.75, pg.3)
• When Baba reaches the Karmateet stage you children will also attain this stage.....but this Karmateet stage will be achieved only in the end. (3.5.73, night class)
• Karmateet stage is one in which the body doesn’t experience any pain. The old body keeps experiencing pain till the end. (24.7.73,pg.1)
• When this study ends, you will attain the Karmateet stage number wise. (8.10.73, pg.2)
• When the arrival of all the souls from there (the Soul World) ends, you will attain the Karmateet stage.(11.7.71, pg.3)
• When the Karmateet stage is achieved, the Yagya shall end. (7.11.73, pg.3)
• We have to get transformed from Tamopradhan to Satopradhan. That too will happen when the time of destruction nears. If anyone says that we will make all-out efforts and achieve the Karmateet stage, but this cannot happen. How can the marriage procession (baraat) begin without Father? This is something to be understood.(13.5..70, pg.3)
• I cannot attain Karmateet stage in spite of being so close to Him (the Supreme Soul), then how can others become Karmateet? (22.9.70, pg.3)
• Rich people can never surrender and attain the Karmateet stage. (5.9.70, pg.3)
• Karmateet stage will be attained when the Father asks us to do something and we act immediately. There must be so much of love for such a Father. If one acts immediately, then Baba will also come to know the love children have for Him.(15.5.....69, pg.1)
• Until there are diseases, it signifies that the Karmateet stage is not achieved.(24..2..69, pg.3)
• What is the sign of attainment of Karmateet stage? Always successful. Time is also successful, thoughts are also successful, contacts and relationships are also successful. Such a soul is called successful.(A.V.29.1.75, pg.275)
• On one side the war will be ready - on the other side the Karmateet stage will be ready. There is full connection (between the two). Then the study will be over. (7.1.73, pg.1)
• Do not think that some children have attained Karmateet stage, and the race is going on. Race will end only when the final result will be out. Then the destruction will also begin. Till then this rehearsal will go on. Until the Karmateet stage is attained we cannot criticize anyone. (25.7.76, pg.1)
• When the children attain the Karmateet stage, the knowledge will end. The war shall begin. I will also return after completing my task of purification. My role is to establish the deity religion.(29.1.78, pg.2)
• Children of Karnataka have also come. This (Southern part of India) is also like a foreign country.... Baapdada sees both futures in everybody's eyes. Coming in the first birth is the achievement (prarabdha) of the number one type. So all the foreigners will come in the first birth, isn’t it? You can come easily from London, but these people also bear a lot of pains to come here. (A.V.8.1.79, pg.189, 190)

[sita]

Aivv-PBKs do not believe in becoming angels-farishtas, then why do they quote Murli points about angels ?? So, do you mean that there are 2 types of angels, one without a corporeal body and the other with a corporeal body, and your interpretation of the above Murli point refers to a soul who is considered to be an angel while being inside a corporeal body?Please note that the Murli point in Hindi refers to 'karmindriyan' or 'sense organs' (and does not specify whether the 'sense organs' are physical or subtle, viz. mind & intellect), and need not be interpreted solely as physical or corporeal sense organs, since an angel can also perform functions with subtle sense organs in a subtle body - did you also consider this aspect?

I think it is gross to suggest "karmindriyan" refer to mind only, although not impossible. Why would BapDada not say just mind, if it was the case, or use it in singular at least. But in all the definitions of karmendriyan I can find, only the physical ones - hands, feet etc. are included, the mind is not even included. I have also not met a definition in the knowledge that will make you think "karmendriyan" is about the mind.

With regards if angel is someone with or without a corporeal body, there are these points:

"There should be only one thing in everybody's mind that it is the same (soul). They should experience that by meeting them we have met the Father. Whatever we got, we got through them. This is the master, the guide, the angel, and the messenger. Only these are the ones, these are the ones and these are the ones (whom we were searching). Everyone should have this unending devotion. They should be devoted towards these words only .... “These are the ones and only these are the ones.” We have met them ...... they should clap in this joy. Cause them such experiences." [Av. 10-1-82 Pg-22]

"You know how to follow the Father, isn’t it? Don’t you think that we could have become subtle by leaving this body. Do not follow (Father) in this aspect. Father Brahma becomes subtle so that one could follow easily by observing the example of subtle form. In spite of the absence of corporeal form, he causes divine visions through the angelic form just as in the corporeal form, isn’t it. .... Just as subtle Father Brahma is sustaining (the divine family) as if he is in corporeal form. He’s making everyone experience the sustenance of corporeal form. Similarly, while living in the corporeal form, you experience the subtle form. You have to study (learn) from only one Father. Whatever Father teaches, or gives training orally you have to study." Av. 17.3.68. P1.

"These decorations are external. Now you are engaged to ShivBaba. When one gets married he/she wears old clothes on the day of the marriage (before the ceremony). Now nobody should decorate this body. If you decorate yourself with knowledge and meditation, then you shall become angels."(30.11.78, pg.2)

"The stage must be such that one experiences the corporeal body to be in the subtle form. Just as you observed the corporeal (Sakar) Father (i.e., Brahma). You experienced the subtle angelic form through his corporeal body also, isn’t it?" (A.V. 10.12.78)

"Just as subtle Father Brahma is giving the sustenance in corporeal form and making others experience the sustenance in the corporeal form. Similarly you experience the subtle angelic form while living in a corporeal form." (A.V. 3-3-81 pg-43)

[sita]

I do not become worship-worthy nor a worshiper. This point from the Murli is interpreted to indicate the constant nature of the soul of Shiv, who is above birth and death, unchangeable. There is also a point....you worship your own selves, you worship your own past, perfect form. This is interpreted to relate to worship of Radha - Krishna, Lakshmi - Narayan. What about the most popular and ancient worship of the shivling. Whose worship is it, if Shiv does not become worship-worthy? Is this not also our own past perfect form?

Along with the shivling, saligrams are worshiped. We know these indicate us, our past and future perfect form when we achieved complete soul-conscious state. We know the soul is not bigger or smaller. If the Shivling is pointing to a particular soul, it is just the same in form, but why is it made different to the saligrams? Saligrams are also shown with bonds, they are bounded soul. The shivling is a completely free soul. His part is bigger, so he is shown bigger.

The Shivling refers to the Confluence Age. All worship refer to the Confluence Age, but worship of Lakshmi and Narayan comes later. Where there are deities, God is not there anymore.

Please, note these are not my churnings. Generally whatever is posted here are not my churnings, I have learned these. From the point of view of correctness, would it be possible to change the title to....Points from soul brother "sita".

[mbbhat]

it is said in the Murli that the memorial of the Supreme Soul is the diamond that is put in the Shivling, the star.

I have not heard any such Murli point. I have heard Murli point saying "ShivBaba is diamond and the Chariot is golden box".

God manifests through a body

No Murli point says so. It says, I need a body to give gyaan. Baba says, I need only face. So, it does not prove ling represents body.

Moreover, it is Shivshaktis who are going to reveal ShivBaba in the end (in the corporeal form), through their thought power and body.

Baba says, even if I enter a body, my name does not change. Again ShivBaba does not ride the Chariot whole day. So, attaching God to a body would not look right.

[sita]

A diamond means a hero actor and if it is said a Golden box, it means the body has to become golden-like, disease free.

All souls are sitas, even if the body is male, even if it is the one he enters. I need support of matter, Brahma means the support, so it is a shivshakti.

Even though he does not ride the Chariot the whole day, it is said we should always consider that it is ShivBaba speaking, that it is the nirakar who teaches us and not this Sakar.

You say the ling does not refer to any body. OK. What does the saligram refer to? Does it refer to the time when we are in the body or when we have left the body. I believe it refers to the time when we have achieved soul-consious state whilst we are in the body. Soul without a body is like nonliving. Nonliving things are not worshiped.

[mbbhat]

A diamond means a hero actor and if it is said a Golden box, it means the body has to become golden-like, disease free.

It is not said has to become. It is said it is. Golden means special, bhaagyashaali rath, fortunate Chariot, as God enters it.

Mostly the Murli point says- ShivBaba heeraa is soney ki dibbaa may hai = The diamond ShivBaba is in this golden box.

You say the ling does not refer to any body. OK. What does the saligram refer to?

Saligram refers to soul/point. Saligram also does not refer to body. See Murli point No. 3) to 5) in post No.107. - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 140#p12392

Baba says Rudra and saligram do not match, Shiv/ShivBaba* and Saligram match, because both Shiv/ShivBaba and saligram do not have body (because they represent incorporeal forms). Rudr means Shiv in a body. If you read all the the Murli points there, you may get better idea.

रूहानी बच्चे रूहानी बाप के सामने बैठे हैं। अब इस भाषा को तो तुम बच्चे ही समझते हो और कोई नया समझ न सके। “हे रूहानी बच्चे” ऐसे कभी कोई कह न सके। कहने आयेगा ही नहीं। तुम जानते हो हम रूहानी बाप के सामने बैठे हैं। जिस बाप को यथार्थ रीति कोई भी जानते नहीं। भल अपने को भाई-भाई भी समझते हैं, हम सब आत्मायें हैं। बाप एक है परन्तु यथार्थ रीति नहीं जानते। जब तक सम्मुख आकर समझें नहीं तब तक समझें भी कैसे? तुम भी जब सम्मुख आते हो तब समझते हो। तुम हो ब्राह्मण-ब्राह्मणियाँ। तुम्हारा सरनेम ही है ब्रह्मा वंशी ब्रह्माकुमार-कुमारियाँ। शिव की तो सब आत्मायें हैं। तुमको शिवकुमार व शिवकुमारी नहीं कहेंगे। यह अक्षर रांग हो जाता। कुमार हो तो कुमारी भी हो। शिव की सब आत्मायें हैं। कुमार-कुमारी तब कहा जाता जब मनुष्य के बच्चे बनते हैं। शिव के बच्चे तो निराकारी आत्मायें हैं ही। मूलवतन में सब आत्मायें ही रहती हैं, जिनको सालिग्राम कहा जाता है। यहाँ आते हैं तो फिर कुमार और कुमारियाँ बनते हैं जिस्मानी। वास्तव में तुम हो कुमार शिवबाबा के बच्चे। कुमारियाँ और कुमार तब बनते जब शरीर में आते हो। तुम बी.के. हो, इसलिए भाई-बहन कहलाते हो। अभी इस समय तुमको नॉलेज मिली है। तुम जानते हो बाबा हमको पावन बनाकर ले जायेंगे। आत्मा जितना बाप को याद करेगी तो पवित्र बन जायेगी। आत्मायें ब्रह्मा मुख से यह नॉलेज पढ़ती हैं। चित्रों में भी बाप की नॉलेज क्लीयर है। शिवबाबा ही हमको पढ़ाते हैं। न कृष्ण पढ़ा सकते, न कृष्ण द्वारा बाप पढ़ा सकते हैं। कृष्ण तो वैकुण्ठ का प्रिन्स है, यह भी तुम बच्चों को समझाना है। कृष्ण तो स्वर्ग में अपने माँ-बाप का बच्चा होगा। स्वर्गवासी बाप का बच्चा होगा, वो वैकुण्ठ का प्रिन्स है। उनको भी कोई जानते नहीं।

The spiritual Children are sitting in front of the spiritual Father. Only you Children understand this language; no one new can understand it. No one else says “O spiritual children”. No one else would even know how to say this. You know that you are sitting in front of the spiritual Father, the Father whom no one really knows ACCURATELY. Although you do understand that you are brother souls, that you are all souls and that the Father is One, no one really knows this ACCURATELY. Until you come personally to understand, how could you understand? It is only when you also come personally in front of the Father (through His 'mukrar rath' or FIXED Chariot, Brahma Baba - in 'Sakar' until 1969, and in 'akar' to date) that you are able to understand. You are Brahmins. Your SURNAME is: Brahma Kumars and Brahma Kumaris of the Brahmin clan (BKs, and NOT PBKs). All souls belong to Shiva. You are not called Shiv Kumars or Shiv Kumaris. Those words are wrong. There are both kumars and kumaris. As souls, you all belong to Shiva. When you become children of human beings, you are called kumars and kumaris. The children of Shiva are, of course, incorporeal souls. Only souls, who are called saligrams, reside in the Soul World. When you come here, you become physical kumars and kumaris. You are, in fact, kumars, children of Shiv Baba. You become kumars and kumaris when you enter bodies. You are Brahma Kumars and Kumaris (BKs, and NOT PBKs) and that is why you are called brothers and sisters. It is at this time that you receive this knowledge. You know that Baba will make us pure and take us back with Him. To the extent that souls remember the Father, they will accordingly become pure. You souls study this knowledge given through the mouth of Brahma (in 'Sakar' until 1969, and in 'akar' to date). The knowledge of the Father is also clear in the pictures. Shiv Baba, Himself, is TEACHING us (through His 'mukrar rath' or the 84th IMPURE corporeal vehicle of the soul of Shri Krishna, the first prince of the Golden Age, and NOT through the FIRST PURE body of the same soul). Neither does Krishna teach us nor can the Father teach us through Krishna (this point has been CORRUPTED & MISREPRESENTED by -Virendra Dev Dixit and PBKs to imply that ShivBaba does not TEACH through Brahma Baba, the 84th IMPURE corporeal vehicle of Shri Krishna). Krishna is the prince of heaven. You children also have to explain this. Krishna is a child of his parents in the Golden Age. He is a child of a Golden Aged Father (ShivBaba is NOT REQUIRED to come to Golden Age to TEACH). He is the prince of Paradise. No one knows him.

* - From the Murli points it becomes clear that Shivling and saligrams are matching. So, Shivling represents incorporeal Shiv and not Shiv in a body.