Some evident errors

[sita]

That is why it was Bhakti. When corporeal Krishna was put as God of Gita, how can people understand the point of light concept? BTW, it is not mentioned point of light in Gita. It is said I am smaller than atom. Again in other places, it is said I am Vishwaroop, etc, etc.

Yes, contradictory conceptions confuse, but you will find these in the Murlis as well. Remember me up there, and then I have come in a body if you remember me up there it means you don't know my introduction.

Firs of all, dear soul, I have quoted Murli points which say ShivBaba for the period of Bhaktimarg. Read the Murli points fully. From the Murli points, I believe Baba can also be said for the incorporeal, even when we do not understand fully. The fruit will be lesser. We cannot deny the relation as we would be trying to think of him with some faith.

If we don't understand fully it is not knowledge. Fruit will be less. For the period of Bhaktimarg we have the souls like Krishna there. If they become number one with respect to knowledge, it means they have done most Bhakti, so keeping their company in 63 births will guarantee us reward.

Does not Baba say, I give fruit of your 'bhavna' in Bhakti.

There is also automatic process of cause and effect and the 'bhavna' of some souls automatically produces effect on its own. God, from his side does not give equal or unjust fruit to any actions, he does not punish or encourage, but gives the knowledge about the relation of cause end effect. He says for one step I give multi million times help, multi million times reward, because steps based on knowledge bring good fruit.

[mbbhat]

Error No. 20) Another example of misunderstanding of Murli points:-

Remember me up there and then I have come in a body if you remember me up there it means you don't know my introduction.

This was said for the Bhaktimarg people who try to remember God above without knowing his actual role or incarnation. Given in the Murli point below.

5)SM 8-1-81(1):- Om Shanti. Bachchon se baap poochte hain, aatmaavon se parmatma poochte hain. Yah to jante ho hum parampita parmatma ke saamney baithey hain. Unko apnaa rath toh nahin hai. Yah to nishchay hai na. Is bhrukuti ke beech may Baap ka nivaas sthaan hota hai. Baap khud kahte hain main inkey bhrukuti ke beech may baith_taa hun. Inkaa sharir loan par leta hun. Atma bhrukuti ke beech hai to Baap bhi vahaan baith_te hain. Brahma HAI TOH ShivBaba BHI HAI. Brahma NAHIN HOTA TO ShivBaba KO HEE Yaad KARTE. Brahma HAI NAHIN TO ShivBaba BOLENGE KAISE? OOPAR MAY ShivBaba KO TO SADIAV Yaad KARTE AAYE. Ab tum bachchon ko pata hai hum Baap ke paas yahaan baithe hain. Aise nahin ki (ab=now) ShivBaba oopar may hain. JAISE Bhaktimarg MAY KAHTE THAY ShivBaba OOPAR MAY HAIN, UNKI PRATIMA YAHAAN POOJI JATI HAI. Yah baatein bahut samajney ki hain. Tum to jaante ho Baap gyaan ka sagar hai. Gyaan kahaan se sunate hain? Kyaa oopar se sunate hain? Yahaan neeche aayaa hai. Brahma tan se sunate hain. Kayi kahte hum Brahma ko nahin maante. Parantu ShivBaba khud Brahma tan dwara kahte hain ki mujhe Yaad karo. Samajh ki baath hai na. Lekin Maya badi jabardast hai. Ekdum muh phiraakar pichaadi kar deti hai. Ab tumhaaraa kaandh ShivBaba ne saamney kiyaa hai. Sammukh baithe ho. Phir jo aise samajhte hain Brahma to kuch nahin, unki kyaa gati hogi. Durgati ko pa lete hain. Kuch bhi gyaan nahin. Manushy pukarte hain Oh Godfather. Phir yah Godfather suntaa hai kyaa? Unko kahte hain na liberator aavo? yaa vahaan baith liberate karenge? Kalp2 purushottam Sangamyug par hee Baap aate hain. JISMEY AATE HAIN UNKO HEE AGAR UDAA DE TO KYAA KAHENGE? NUMBER ONE TAMPOPRADHAAN. Nishchay hote huye bhi Maya muh phira deti hai. Itnaa usmey bal hai jo ekdum worth not a penny bana deti hai. Ekdum mahamoorkh bana deti hai. AISE BHI KOYI NA KOYI CENTRES PAR HAI. ISLIYE BAAP KAHTE HAIN KHABARDAAR RAHNAA. -11- [rath, ShivBaba,prediction_PBKs]

Translation would be done later. I think you know Hindi well.

But, again as per drama, there is nothing wrong even in your interpretation.

[sita]

In the quote you have provided also it is said that I am without a body, I sit in this one. These two don't contradict.

For contradicting points about remembrance I meant like these:

"You know that (ShivBaba) is in the body of Brahma. So surely you will have to remember here. He’s not above (in the Soul World). He has come here at this Confluence Age. Father says I have come here to make you so great. You children will remember here. Father says I am in (this) body. Remember me in this body." (24-12-70 pg-3)

"I come in this body here and tell that you have to remember (me) there, where you have to go now. You should not remember (me) here." (19-4-78)

[mbbhat]

For contradicting points about remembrance I meant like these:

"You know that (ShivBaba) is in the body of Brahma. So surely you will have to remember here. He’s not above (in the Soul World). He has come here at this Confluence Age. Father says I have come here to make you so great. You children will remember here. Father says I am in (this) body. Remember me in this body." (24-12-70 pg-3)

"I come in this body here and tell that you have to remember (me) there, where you have to go now. You should not remember (me) here." (19-4-78)

I do not see any contradiction here. Baba most of the times says, "remember me there, up above in Paramdham, do not remember the Chariot". But, very few times he also says to remember Him in the Chariot.

So, the right way is to try your best to remember ShivBaba, most of the time, in Paramdham or the Soul World, (which is the real home of all souls as well as the Father), which would be the FINAL practical experience of every soul, whether by personal effort or by external force! Whereas, the intermediary provision advocated to remember Him, at least in the Chariot, is to cater to those souls who are body-conscious and STILL require the 'STOOL' of a corporeal or subtle body to perfect the FINAL STAGE of accurate remembrance or REACH the 'HIGH' destination of soul-consciousness. That is the actual significance of the so-called 'contradicting points', which appear to be contradictory only to a MIND which is still attracted and attached to MATTER, and becomes CLEAR, day by day, to a MIND which releases itself from the bondage of MATTER progressively, with the correct practice of accurate remembrance!
For the BKs the 'STOOL' is Brahma Baba, first in corporeal, then in subtle, and their destination is different.
For the PBKs the 'STOOL' is -Virendra Dev Dixit, who still happens to be in corporeal, as of date, and their destination is different.
Whatever misunderstanding which may be existing presently between the BKs and the PBKs is simply on account of the fact of not being able to appreciate this DIFFERENCE clearly, as yet!

[sita]

"I come in this body here and tell that you have to remember (me) there, where you have to go now. You should not remember (me) here." (19-4-78)

The interpretation of this point, as far as i have understood it, with respect to the advanced knowledge, would be that...it is said that we have to go to Baba. It does not mean to leave the body for Paramdham. There is no meeting in Paramdham, and Baba is the meeting of the incorporeal within the corporeal. Meeting Baba, Going to Baba, becoming a garland around Baba's neck is whilst living. It is also said that on removing the rust, we will learn directly from the Father. Baba comes in the body of Brahma Baba and points where we have to go and meet him and remember him in future.

[mbbhat]

It is difficult for me to convince you. But, baba has specifically said to remember him in Paramdham (BEYOND five elements).

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1991&p=42059&hilit=yaatraa#p42059

Also refer to the first post in the topic, for English.

It is up to you, however you may wish to interpret or understand it.

[sita]

The translation is very bad. You see. There are additions of “you”, “You have to remember”, whilst it is spoken in neutral, like “ShivBaba is to be remembered.”

It is not said in singular: ”ShivBaba comes in this one”, but in plural ” In these ones”.

It is not “up there”, but “there”.

ShivBaba comes and narrates (can be interpreted as opposite to explains)

Intellect should go far far away. (how far? If you think about the future you intellect goes further. Paramdham may be far, but heaven is even further than that)

Basically, for me, here in this quote it is said that we should not get entangled in Brahma Baba. It is even mentioned that this body will be left, and we are being asked to think further, not to stick to that.

“ShivBaba only enters this one”....this is also misguiding translation. It is said...”ShivBaba comes in this very one.”

There it is mentioned we should remember our destination. Our destination is to become a deity. It is also called the easiest effort to remember Narayan, it is said to keep heaven in one of our eyes (Paramdham in the other) and it is said to remember our inheritance, to remember heaven etc. So why is the term”there” translated as “up there” when it could refer to heaven, the future, we are about to go there as well and this is our real destination and not Paramdham, Paramdham is just in between. Our intellect should not stay with Brahma, but go further in time. Through Brahma we become Brahmins, we need a deity to become deities. We transfer class. From the mother we go to the Father.

Yes, there is mention about our sweet home, but in the advanced knowledge there is the idea that all the matters we have to remember refer to one thing. Even if it is said we have to remember the cycle, still there is a soul who plays an all round part, same soul is our inheritance, same soul becomes the home of the Supreme Soul, same soul is our destination Narayan. But this soul was not there present at the time Murli was spoken. But Baba was hinting for that and warning against entangling in Brahma Baba.

[mbbhat]

The translation is very bad.

100% translation can never be PERFECT, as each language has some uniqueness of its own.
That is why ACCURATE UNADULTERATED REMEMBRANCE is IMPERATIVE to CORRECTLY COMPREHEND the ORIGINAL INTENT of GOD!

ShivBaba is to be remembered...
You have to remember...

I do not perceive any difference between the two.

And, what you are saying, for the other words, they do not have any real value, because you are not doing there any translation with any fidelity. You are interpreting the points to your own advantage (while already having something pre-impressed viewpoint in your mind, to prove your theory).

But, whatever it is, these errors are not even up to 1% of great errors done by AIVV. Just tip of an iceberg is given here- viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2102&p=31617&hilit=shareer#p31617

[sita]

It was not to point fingers, but greater care could be there. On bkinfo forum someone was sharing about the original translation of one Dada, that they were poetic and sweet and now they have become strict and commanding. I don't know if translations are revised each time a Murli is revised.

The discussion was about the meaning, about the essence, but if someone likes, we could further discuss the translation.

[mbbhat]

However many mistakes in the translation may be, it should not affect one's accurate spiritual effort. Because only ONE ShivBaba, and NONE OTHER, is to be remembered.

Baba has said here, if you know who is ShivBaba, that it is enough. - Post No. 105- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... ade#p12382

So, an honest truth seeker should first try to know who is the Big Father (ShivBaba). That is enough, or that is the most important. We may gather several Murli points about ShivBaba, and then try to get the essence, is it not?*

The PBk theory quotes lowkik slogan- "if a drop of poison is put in a pot of milk, the whole milk becomes poison" and criticizes BKWSU for its editing or cutting Murli points. But, PBKs never hesitate to fill their pot fully with poison/manipulations.

In fact, any translational error has not affected BK philosophy at all. That is the power of REAL Truth. It can convert even negativity or be immune to even negativity.

Murlis/theory cannot give full truth. Truth is the ACTUAL ability to feel & EXPERIENCE God, by using the REAL essence within Murlis. Why does Baba say- More you remember Me, more your intellect will open? Why does Baba say- read Murlis in Baba's Yaad?

Murlis are light, but Yaad is the power. If we have not understood ShivBaba, it is as good as our eyes are not at all opened. Then for such souls, what use the light/Murli can be? But, for a person who has opened his eyes, that is, who has felt the feeling and ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED Big/True/Spiritual Father, even if there are some defects in the light(=Murli points), (which are just not more than 5%), such a person will be able to move comfortably by the power of ACCURATE UNADULTERATED Yaad.

* - BKs begin to give gyaan with the introduction of Big Father. But, PBKs while giving gyaan to BKs usually just take some TWISTED Murli points and begin. This itself shows who is on the path of truth.

But again, as per Drama, everything is ACCURATE!

[mbbhat]

Error No. 21) Role of Father and Mother:-

PBKs believe B Baba (DL) is the 'big mother' ('badi Maa') and God played role of 'mother' through him, giving spiritual birth to children. God played/plays role of Father through Sevakram / -Virendra Dev Dixit.

They also believe God was entering in B Baba from 1947 till 1969 only, (in Sakar). They believe God had entered in Sevakram from 1936/37 till 1942, and entered -Virendra Dev Dixit after 1969.

So- did role of mother through DL start only after 1947? How did the mouth-born progeny take birth prior 1947, without a spiritual mother in corporeal?

And- the role of neither mother, nor Father was played in Yagya between 1942 to 1947?
So were the children spiritual orphans during this period?

And- there is again no role of same corporeal mother (DL) after 1969. So the children (PBKs) born after this time take spiritual birth through a surrogate mother - i.e. Jagadamba of PBKs, KDD?

And- so now we have TWO Brahmas playing the role of mother in corporeal - whereas Prajapita Brahma of PBKs, i.e. -Virendra Dev Dixit plays the role of Father in corporeal (again) after 1969, whose actions in corporeal are NOT to be followed, according to his directives!

So when Murlis say "follow Brahma", whom do PBKs believe they should follow - DL or KDD?
How can they follow DL, since he is not in Sakar after 1969? And if they have to follow KDD in corporeal, then should they not ALL get married and have at least TWO children, like her?

And- if ShivBaba has by now already entered 3 corporeal vehicles, viz., DL, -Virendra Dev Dixit and KDD, then should not these 3 be the Trimurti? So why is DL left out of the Trimurti of PBKs, and where does the role of Sister Vedanti fit into this cooked-up theory of the 'shooting' of Ravan Rajya?

ENDLESS QUESTIONS and NO PLAUSIBLE ANSWERS, EXCEPT THOSE BASED ON BLIND FAITH?

[sita]

Role of mother and Father is combined. It is said... you try to separate Bap and Dada, they again unite. It is said...you are mother, you are Father, so it refers to one personality.

Brahma Baba also holds the title of Prajapita for the time there is no other Prajapita in the Yagya. He is also Prajapita to his followers who believe him to be the first man and no one else can be the first man.

With regards to the role before him in the Yagya, there were roles of Yagya mother and Yagya Father both, but these were not recognized. Then in the Murlis it is said that this Brahma is our mother - Jagadamba. For the time he sustains the Yagya he also plays the part of mother and Father in one. Mama is also Mama just by title, she is daughter of Brahma.

Following Brahma is not hard because we know his history of dedication and personal example, sweetness and tolerance. We can follow that in our effort making life. We can also follow him in achieving our Avyakt stage. In the same way as following Brahma Baba is possible for the BKs, the same is with the PBKs.

It is said we should not follow Shankar, because the qualities of the Father are different. Destruction is hard work. Iron is cut with iron. But it is said we should attain stage like Shankar. But whichever body I enter is named Brahma, so following Brahma is possible in corporeal even today if you believe he plays part in corporeal. You can follow the example of Prajapita Brahma in everything, faith, service etc.

Now you tell how BKs follow Brahma! In the Murli, example is given about people following the sanyasis. Are they called followers if they don't leave their home and family like the ones they follow? The same question applies. BK call themselves children of Brahma. Where is their Brahma? In Sukshamvatan? Indeed many BKs aim leaving the body due to inability to understand what aim Baba has given in the Murlis.

For me, the meaning of to follow Brahma is to become from a man to a deity, because Brahma becomes Vishnu. Yes, from Brahmins we become faristas and then deities, but leaving the body does not make you a farista.

For example Mama had left the body due to cancer. This is karmic account. Is there special effort and special achievement in suffering an illness? It will be a matter of effort and achievement to cut connection whilst living.

[mbbhat]

Role of mother and Father is combined. It is said... you try to separate Bap and Dada, they again unite. It is said...you are mother, you are Father, so it refers to one personality.

I have seen PBKs questioning "how can roles of both Father and mother be played by one personality?" And, it is they who have separated Father from mother and have made Virendra Dev Dixit as just Prajapita (not Big Mother) and B baba as just Big mother (not Prajapita).

Brahma Baba also holds the title of Prajapita for the time there is no other Prajapita in the Yagya.

Avyakt Murli clearly says, even when B baba has left his corporeal body, and BapDada come in Dadi Gulzar, still the work of establishment is happening through Brahma baba only. So, during absence of the B baba Dadi Gulzar does not get title Brahma. So, saying B baba gets title of Prajapita during absence of Mr Virendra Dev Dixit is illogical as well as has absolutely no support from Murli points, in fact, goes against them.

Then in the Murlis it is said that this Brahma is our mother - Jagadamba. For the time he sustains the Yagya he also plays the part of mother and Father in one.

The main question here is- as per PBKs ShivBaba did not enter in B baba till 1947. So, till 1947, he cannot play either role of Father or mother, is it not?

So, between 1942 to 1947, who was Father in Yagya? If we believe God was entering in the other two mothers, should we take they used to play even role of Prajapita in that period? And, there had been two mothers/sisters. Who among them played role of Prajapita and who as Big mother? or ...?

It is said we should not follow Shankar, because the qualities of the Father are different.

Where is this said in Murlis?

Now you tell how BKs follow Brahma!

Murli clearly say activities of Brahma Baba. Murlis contain not only knowledge, but also life history of B baba. Even in Avyakt Murlis, for example- Avyakt Murlis clearly state like- B baap ke 8 kadam = 8 steps of B Baba. His life history is also written in books. This is just tip of ice berg. [People think of Jesus, Gandhiji and try to follow them or what they have said, even if they are not present in corporeal]. It is PBKs only who believe corporeal figure must be present always all the time. So, they have to reply, not from the other side.

For example Mama had left the body due to cancer. This is karmic account. Is there special effort and special achievement in suffering an illness?

You can see only body. As far as I have heard from other BKs, there was no sign of sorrow in Mama's face during those days of illness, even when the pain is high. The wonderful experience of B baba during his last minutes are said in Avyakt Murli - post No. 116- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... hel#p12438

Also, Baba has clearly said the number one souls will have highest karmbhog , but they will pass it with happiness. Post No. 193- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... naa#p15243

So, I do not feel any surprise in this.

[sita]

Avyakt Murli clearly says, even when B Baba has left his corporeal body, and BapDada come in Dadi Gulzar, still the work of establishment is happening through Brahma Baba only. So, during absence of the B Baba Dadi Gulzar does not get title Brahma. So, saying B Baba gets title of Prajapita during absence of Mr Veerendra Dev Dixit is illogical as well as has absolutely no support from Murli points, in fact, goes against them.

It is said through Brahma, not Brahma Baba.

The main question here is- as per PBKs ShivBaba did not enter in B Baba till 1947. So, till 1947, he cannot play either role of Father or mother, is it not?
So, between 1942 to 1947, who was Father in Yagya? If we believe God was entering in the other two mothers, should we take they used to play even role of Prajapita in that period? And, there had been two mothers/Sisters. Who among them played role of Prajapita and who as Big mother? or ...?

Yes, if the Father departs, the mother has to be mother and Father both.

I believe the karmateet stage is a stage whilst performing actions and being above their effect.

[mbbhat]

It is said through Brahma, not Brahma Baba.

It is said through the same Brahma. It says "sthaapnaa kaa kaary ab bhee Brahma ke dwaraa hee ho rahaa hai". ="The task of establishment is taking place through Brahma EVEN NOW!"
There are several points which point to B baba. PBKs may try to misinterpret word Brahma. But, one clear example- where PBKs cannot mis interpret is given here- It says, the age of B baba while leaving body is almost 100 yrs, if not exactly 100 yrs, the rest he will complete through 'aakar'. See mu point No. 5) is post No. 92 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... raa#p12005

Yes, if the Father departs, the mother has to be mother and Father both.

PBKs quote the Murli point saying, there is no question of one Guru departing and someone other taking that seat. But, here, they choose to assume so, ANY NUMBER of TIMES, to suit their falsified theory, when their many mothers keep on changing - another example of double standards.

You did not reply - Who among these two mothers are playing role of Prajapita and Big mother from 1942 to 47? Moreover why have these very important aspects been not at all covered in AIVV literature till today?

So, do you believe B baba did not play role of either Father or mother till 1947? If yes, then what was the purpose of first showing vision to him 1936 itself? And, B Baba plays the role of founder of Yagya from 1936 itself? ...

We can clearly see total failure of PBKs to explain the year 1936, 1942, 1947, ...
But, it is in Drama, hence no fault of anyone.