Some evident errors

[sita]

Which Murli point says he can enter temporarily to play role of mother.

This part was temporary.You can see it from the reality, from the practice. Truth is what happens in practical. You don't need a Murli point to tell you the obvious. You don't need a Murli point to tell you water is wet.

But there are Murli point that tell that this Brahma is your Jagadamba, that in fact he is your mother. This is also proved by his sweet and tolerant nature, behaviour, attitude and speech. Mother is soft and beautiful with her character, she is virtuous, possessing the greatest virtue of extreme tolerance. ShivBaba picks such soul with such extraordinary personality to play this part.

[karan]

This part was temporary.You can see it from the reality, from the practice.

Both against reality and Murli points.

But there are Murli point that tell that this Brahma is your Jagadamba, that in fact he is your mother.

Murli point says Brahma is both your (corporeal) Father and mother.

[sita]

Both against reality and Murli points.

I meant that the role of Brahma, of Brahma Baba is not visible now in corporeal. Even if there is some part through Dadi Gulzar, this is also for a short time. What is happening in the Subtle Regions, I am really not able to tell.

For me if I cannot ask a question and receive an answer, if I cannot meet in corporeal is equal to that part not being available. Maybe I am bodyconcious and have to switch to Avyakt.

There are points in the Murli that what will happen if this Brahma departs, that whoever I enter has to be named Brahma. So it is a matter about entering, about this corporeal world. Brahma is here.

There is also this hint about the old shoes that when you leave the old shoes you take new ones. I don't think these two points apply to the Avyakt part, because the new shoes are similar to the old ones, like corporeal shoes, not subtle shoes and...I don't enter the Subtle Region dweller Brahma.

If the meaning of Brahma is the one in whom the Supreme souls enters, by definition it must be in corporeal. If there is no Supreme Soul entering, we don't have Brahma. We don't have Brahma in Subtle Region, as Supreme Soul does not enter in the Subtle Region dweller, but in a corporeal personality. If we don't have corporeal personality in whom the Supreme Soul enters, we don't have Brahma.

It is true that in many Avyakt Vanis it is said that the role of Brahma goes on, but we have to look in the corporeal world.

Murli point says Brahma is both your (corporeal) Father and mother.

Maybe there is this point too. But there is this point that He is your mother, but because he is male Mama is put in charge of the sisters and mother. Mama and Baba were also not mother and Father, since she was his spiritual daughter and not a spouse.

It is also said Father teacher and Satguru in one, not mother, Father, teacher and Satguru. The role of the mother through Brahma is also seen through the character of this role of extreme tolerance and sweetness. Even if someone can claim that the role of teacher was played through Brahma Baba still the role of the Satguru remains.

[arjun]

Om Shanti All soul Brothers,
Can you clear this point?
SevakRam left his body in 1942, In which month?
Veerendra Dev Dixit Birth 1 Feb. 1942

I had forgotten to send, but now I have sent the query. I shall intimate the reply as and when I receive the same.

The reply received from Baba regarding the above question is as follows:

"जन्म की तारिख भी कागजी है, सही नहीं है।"
"The date of birth is also documentary; it is not correct."

It is common in India to have two birthday, one official and one unofficial. And in case of those born many decades ago, even if one date of birth is recorded in some certificate, there is every possibility of it being wrong as the registration of births was done only in big cities and towns. Registration of births in small and remote villages was a rarity. Dates of birth were normally recorded or remembered according to the Hindu calendar.

[karan]

"जन्म की तारिख भी कागजी है, सही नहीं है।"
"The date of birth is also documentary; it is not correct."

It is common in India to have two birthday, one official and one unofficial. And in case of those born many decades ago, even if one date of birth is recorded in some certificate, there is every possibility of it being wrong as the registration of births was done only in big cities and towns. Registration of births in small and remote villages was a rarity. Dates of birth were normally recorded or remembered according to the Hindu calendar.

DOB of Virendra Dev Dixit is MUCH MORE recent, as compared to DOB of Brahma Baba!
Now, when you READILY ACCEPT this BLUNDER, on the basis of your ABOVE ARGUMENT (ADDED for good measure), was it PROPER for Virendra Dev Dixit, AIVV, as well as your good self to have made SUCH A HUGE ISSUE regarding the 'officially recorded' DOB of Brahma Baba, PARTICULARLY when so many SMs CLEARLY indicated that Brahma Baba was in his 'vanprasth avastha' or 'retired stage' when Shiv began using his Chariot?
(Please refer to relevant topics on the forum)!

When it comes to question of DOB of Brahma Baba, students of AIVV prefer to BELIEVE, or are TRICKED into BELIEVING, that the 'officially recorded' DOB of BB is more correct, since this aspect forms one of the STRONGEST BASIS for the propagation of PBK ideology! (COMPLETELY IGNORING the numerous Versions of Shiv Baba, which CLEARLY indicate that Brahma Baba was around 60 years when Shiv started using his Chariot).
But when it comes to question of DOB of Virendra Dev Dixit, SAME students of AIVV prefer to BELIEVE, or readily allow themselves to be TRICKED into BELIEVING, that the 'officially recorded' DOB of Virendra Dev Dixit is NOT correct????????
LET THE READERS DECIDE WHO IS PLAYING A DOUBLE GAME HERE???
"CARRY ON CLEO" !!!

It appears, the 'officially recorded' DOB of Virendra Dev Dixit is CORRECT, and he, AS WELL AS ALL CONCERNED, had OVERLOOKED the '4 to 5 months gap', and had just declared Sevakram too left his body in 1942, without realizing the obvious blunder earlier!
[When someone speaks LIES, he is BOUND to be caught, at some time or the other, if NOT on the corporeal level, then DEFINITELY before Dharmraj]!

Let us wait and see how Drama ACTUALLY UNFOLDS!

[arjun]

DOB of Veerendra Dev Dixit is MUCH MORE recent, as compared to DOB of Brahma Baba!
Now, when you READILY ACCEPT this BLUNDER, on the basis of your ABOVE ARGUMENT (ADDED for good measure), was it PROPER for Veerendra Dev Dixit, AIVV, as well as your good self to have made SUCH A HUGE ISSUE regarding the 'officially recorded' DOB of Brahma Baba, PARTICULARLY when so many SMs CLEARLY indicated that Brahma Baba was in his 'vanprasth avastha' or 'retired stage' when Shiv began using his Chariot?
(Please refer to relevant topics on the forum)!

When it comes to question of DOB of Brahma Baba, students of AIVV prefer to BELIEVE, or are TRICKED into BELIEVING, that the 'officially recorded' DOB of BB is more correct, since this aspect forms one of the STRONGEST BASIS for the propagation of PBK ideology! (COMPLETELY IGNORING the numerous Versions of Shiv Baba, which CLEARLY indicate that Brahma Baba was around 60 years when Shiv started using his Chariot).
But when it comes to question of DOB of Veerendra Dev Dixit, SAME students of AIVV prefer to BELIEVE, or readily allow themselves to be TRICKED into BELIEVING, that the 'officially recorded' DOB of Veerendra Dev Dixit is NOT correct????????

The date of birth of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit has been made controversial by you in the context of the date of death of Sevakram. If you wish you can accept the 1st Feb'1942 date as the correct one.

Moreover, the controversy, if any about the DOB of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is only of a few days or months within the same year 1942, but in case of Dada Lekhraj, the difference is of many years. So, you cannot compare both the cases at all.

We have not tampered with the evidence. We have presented the fact as available on record. But in case of BKWSU, the documentary proofs say something else and they have been claiming something else. Moreover, their track record of changing the original pictures, original literature and in fact the words of God, i.e. Murlis proves their dishonesty beyond doubt.

The fact that even after 75+ years they have not shown the courage to publish the unedited original Murlis proves that they still do not want to bring out the truth whereas AIVV has published everything that it has on its website (in written, audio and video form).

[sita]

These are some points regarding the temporary role of Brahma.

This is ShivBaba’s temporary Chariot. Father says come to his lap in the remembrance of ShivBaba , otherwise it will be a sin.(25-6-71, pg-3)
I too come temporarily in his body. (5-9-78, pg-1)
Although I have taken this body, it’s also temporary. I have not taken it for 60 years, isn’t it? (4-3-69, pg-1)
Father comes in this Confluence Age and remains in him for 50—60 years and changes him. (26-11-72,pg-3; 29-11-77)
You hear from the God himself through this lotus-like mouth. This is the mouth which God has taken on loan, which is also called Gaumukh (mouth of cow). This (Brahma) is elder mother, isn’t it? (28-5-75, pg-1)
Father says I also take loan temporarily. That too for such a short time. One attains the Vanprastha stage at the age of 60 years. (26-10-74, pg-2)

[karan]

The date of birth of Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit has been made controversial by you in the context of the date of death of Sevakram.

By me? Thanks for the compliment!

Moreover, the controversy, if any about the DOB of Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit is only of a few days or months within the same year 1942, but in case of Dada Lekhraj, the difference is of many years. So, you cannot compare both the cases at all.

First of all, there is no proof that Sevakram did exist in Yagya from 1937 to 1942. No proof of even DOB or DOD (Date of demise) of the other two sisters and mothers.

So, claiming the error was just few days has no significance AT ALL!

What I feel, when (in case) Mr Virendra Dev Dixit went on creating FALSE history, he is getting caught in his own trap. [Like Baba says, Christians divided and ruled India; and in the end, they will fight among themselves. Similarly, Virendra Dev Dixit and his followers have MISUSED the Knowledge and are likely to get caught in their own trap.
Let us see how Drama unfolds!

We have not tampered with the evidence. We have presented the fact as available on record. But in case of BKWSU, the documentary proofs say something else and they have been claiming something else. Moreover, their track record of changing the original pictures, original literature and in fact the words of God, i.e. Murlis proves their dishonesty beyond doubt.

You call yourself as the highest 'Gyani tu atmas', 'pandavas' and call BKs as 'kouravas' - and pointing fingers to them is very silly, foolish or childish. Just imagine - How would it look if BKs every time point fingers to lokik people for any mistake?

Moreover, you also believe that in the end, just 108 are going to pass. So, others should commit mistakes. Then why do you point mistakes now and then?

Many times, you try to justify your faults by pointing faults of others. Is not that a great ignorance?

And, it does not show your honesty. It shows more of PBKs' ignorance and foolishness, as no one else has been able to point out this error (even though all of you engage yourselves in discussions and discussions). Even you got upset, confused and humiliated.

The fact that even after 75+ years they have not shown the courage to publish the unedited original Murlis proves that they still do not want to bring out the truth whereas AIVV has published everything that it has on its website (in written, audio and video form).

An elephant need not follow dog's steps. Dog may show courage of barking at every step. But, you are also right here, because even an elephant can make mistakes.

First of all, Murli/Baba has never said - to publish Murlis. So- you are proving yourself above ShivBaba by expecting someone to behave what Baba has not said or expected.

And - PBKs do not accept their faults when errors are pointed out to them. All of their arguments are one sided or double standard, without any either logical proof or tangible physical facts.

Of course, I agree, BKWSU has done mistakes here. But, some BKs admit openly mistakes of BKWSU.
So far how many PBKs have admitted openly mistakes of AIVV?
----------------------
Error No. 08)

Regarding tampering the evidences:- Some members have already pointed out periodical changing of the dates in AIVV literature and they also hide many things. Available on this forum.

PBKs even do not openly disclose their Jagadamba had left their Yagya and have got married, etc. Already put here on the forum.

Another one is here:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhyatmik_ ... _Vidyalaya

The group is made up of predominantly disaffected ex-members of the BKWSU University, some of whom had conflict with the BKWSU's local representatives.[2]

Walliss identifies the Advance Party as radically re-interpreting the millenarianism of the BKSWU to regain its "true" original form. As a result they set a specific date of 2008 as that expected for the destruction of the world and the emergence of the millennial kingdom in 2036.[5]

Mostly PBKs had set date 1998 (some member had written here), then 2008 (as said above), then 2018 (mostly you have written yourself on the forum). [If wrong, you may correct].

2018 is fast approaching and PBKs predict Krishna and Radha will take birth that year. Let us wait and see.

But, dear soul,
Drama is accurate, so what all you have written are 100% accurate. Nothing wrong!

[karan]

These are some points regarding the temporary role of Brahma....

One-sided, misinterpreted arguments - TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT of original Versions.

No Murli point says - I play temporary role of mother and permanent role of Father (a usual statement of PBKs).

What Baba had said as temporary Chariot for Brahma, he has also said fixed Chariot for the same Brahma. For whom Baba has said I play role of mother, for that Chariot only Baba had said I play role of Father, teacher and Sadguru, through the same personality.

For the Brahma to whom Baba has said I play role of mother, for the same Chariot Baba has also said Brahma is both mother and Father combined.

When we take all these points holistically, it becomes clear that the word temporary used by ShivBaba is to indicate that ShivBaba does not have his own body, so uses the body of someone for a short period (just in Confluence Age), hence says temporary.

But, if you like to take just one sided arguments, then you are right.

[sita]

I agree that temporary can be because Shiv takes the body of Brahma Baba temporarily, as he does not have his own. But it is also true that he has said that the role of Brahma is there fixed till the end and I don't agree that the role in the Subtle Region or the role through Gulzar Dadi certify to this.

For example there is one Murli point that....in future television will spread, you will see ShivBaba coming in Brahma and speaking the Murli. Gulzar Dadi is not Brahma.

I also don't agree that the role of Satguru was played through Brahma Baba. Guru means one who takes others with himself.

[karan]

I don't agree that the role in the Subtle Region or the role through Gulzar Dadi certify to this.

It is not just/mainly through Gulzar Dadi.

It is through Yaad now.

Read the whole Avyakt Murli dated 23-1-69 , where B Baba had said- trying to catch through body has no importance, and also one who tries to see Baba through body will not succeed, now those who are in Avyakt stage will succeed.

Just few lines.

रग-रग में किस के साथ स्नेह था? 5 तत्वों से नहीं । स्नेह गुणों से ही होता है । स्नेह था, नहीं । है और रहेगा । जब तक भविष्य नई दुनिया न बनी है तब तक यह अटूट स्नेह रहेगा । स्नेह आत्मा के साथ और कर्तव्य के साथ ही है तो फिर शरीर क्या! अन्त तक साथी रहेंगे । जिसका बाप के साथ स्नेह है वही अन्त तक स्थापना के कार्य में मददगार रहेंगे । इसलिए स्नेही होने की कोशिश करो । कैसी भी माया आवे, मायाजीत बनना । जैसे बैज लगाते हो वैसे मस्तक पर यह विजय का बैज लगाओ ।

= To have the same love for the things that Baba has love for means to make yourself a hundred-fold fortunate. In his every vein, what did Baba have love for? Not the five elements. Love is always for the virtues. It is not that he had love, but that he still has love. Until the future new world is created, this love will remain unbroken. Love is for the souls and the task. Then what is there about the body? Till end, there will be companion ship. ....

Lots of Avyakt Murlis also say so. If you need, I will give links a little bit later.

For example there is one Murli point that....in future television will spread, you will see ShivBaba coming in Brahma and speaking the Murli. Gulzar Dadi is not Brahma.

Give Murli point clearly if possible. I think Baba has said you will listen through Television. And, that has already happened. Everyday Murli class is telecasted in TVs.

Is Virendra Dev Dixit telecasted on TV? [Of course, through YOU Tube and internet, but not through TV].

Every Bk is a master Brahma. See the second post in post No. 93 - here- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... zar#p12058

I also don't agree that the role of Satguru was played through Brahma Baba. Guru means one who takes others with himself.

ShivBaba or BapDada has not gone to Paramdham. They still give all the support necessary for the children. But, now hands/children are put in front as per Baba's own words. (already given the link).

They still meet children through Gulzar Dadi every year.

[sita]

Television will also spread. People can watch it from anywhere. This is Brahma, ShivBaba has come in him. ShivBaba narrates Murli (flute of knowledge). In the future even that will happen. Av. 26.6.70. P3.

Master Brahma means master of Brahma. We bound the Father through the bound of our love, he becomes our most obedient servant etc. It does not mean we are Brahma. It means we also create our world through our thoughts, words and actions. It does not mean ShivBaba comes in us and speaks knowledge through us, because this is the meaning of Brahma.

In the point you have quoted it said that one should love the soul and not the body. I know you can find many points supporting that idea. But you will also find points that say that one cannot love a soul, without a body, that body is needed, love is through the corporeal, that we cannot even remember a soul without a body, that first the body will come into the mind and then the soul, that a soul without the body is nothing etc. The matter is whether our attention goes to the soul within the body or to the body itself, it is not a matter of body not being there at all. If there is no body there cannot be the matter of whether we see the soul or the body. This practice we practice everyday, we don't expect people to vanish so that we don't see the body, but whist we interact with our brother souls we try to change our perception and see the soul inside instead of the body. In the same way one soul among all the souls is our Father and we also relate to him through some body, and a fixed and singe body (not through many).

[karan]

Television will also spread. People can watch it from anywhere. This is Brahma, ShivBaba has come in him. ShivBaba narrates Murli (flute of knowledge). In the future even that will happen. Av. 26.6.70. P3.

Yes, it need not mean that people should see corporeal Brahma in TV. Even during Avyakt BapDada milan, BKs feel both ShivBaba and Brahma there. Similarly, even in Gulzar Dadi, prople may understand that God had come earlier in B Baba and now both of them come in Dadi. Moreover- there would be enough BKs to explain that and visions also will happen in the end, so that people can understand the essence.

In the end, it will be like fair.

Master Brahma means master of Brahma. We bound the Father through the bound of our love, he becomes our most obedient servant etc. It does not mean we are Brahma. It means we also create our world through our thoughts, words and actions. It does not mean ShivBaba comes in us and speaks knowledge through us, because this is the meaning of Brahma.

Interpretation can be in various ways. You may have your own interpretation. But, to claim someone's interpretation is wrong, you need to have a solid proof. When ShivBaba says- you all are master trimurtis, you are master God, you all are ShivShaktis combined with ShivBaba, etc- your claim saying my interpretation is wrong has no value.

In the point you have quoted it said that one should love the soul and not the body. I know you can find many points supporting that idea. But you will also find points that say that one cannot love a soul, without a body, that body is needed, love is through the corporeal, that we cannot even remember a soul without a body, that first the body will come into the mind and then the soul, that a soul without the body is nothing etc.

Thank you for agreeing that there are both types of Murli points. So-we should try why baba has said both. For example- Baba has said - keep pictures, Bhog , song, etc. But, Baba has also said there is no need of them. So, I believe in the lower level, we need them to understand. But, later as we progress, we become independent of them.

The matter is whether our attention goes to the soul within the body or to the body itself, it is not a matter of body not being there at all. If there is no body there cannot be the matter of whether we see the soul or the body. This practice we practice everyday, we don't expect people to vanish so that we don't see the body, but whist we interact with our Brother souls we try to change our perception and see the soul inside instead of the body. In the same way one soul among all the souls is our Father and we also relate to him through some body, and a fixed and singe body (not through many).

If it should be absolutely in the same way(like human souls), then better declare God also as a human soul.

God is not fixed to someone. He can enter anyone. So, why should we remember him in one body? Whatever it is- if you are able to feel yourself as a point, different than body, and feel ShivBaba also as a point, and if your mind goes above matter, it is fine. This is what I believe.

Various Murli points go against PBKs' interpretation of Yaad. That is already discussed several times in the forum.

[sita]

No, it is not wrong to give interpretations and claim they are right. They can be right. We are discussing and the benefit in this is that we try to make our own stand clearer so we can pass it to the other one, so we come to know our stand also better and that of the other one and if we disagree, this is not a problem.

Souls are different, Brahmins are different and if they are master Brahma then whatever comes from their mouth is Shrimat. But some say something, someone else says something else. So the definition of Shrimat which is ekmat, direction of one is lost.

If we don't have one fixed Chariot of God, He becomes omnipresent. God is not a human soul, but among the human souls there is one soul who is the human Father. The supreme Father comes in the human Father. If he comes in everyone it will become fatherhood and not brotherhood.

God also has a task no one else can perform, the task of purifying the impure one. There is no other way than to develop the wrong arrogance that we are pure ourselves, so that we can do his task. In reality we are impure.

We need God here for us first, leave alone service to others. We cannot do service to others, we are degraded ourselves. We need him here to lead us through the fearsome destruction. If he is here, everything is alright, he will face along with us whatever we will have to face.

[karan]

I have already heard most of all of your comments and some members have already replied to them in the forum. So, will not repeat the same. You may search them in the forum. I will concentrate on other points/issues in this topic.

Thank you.