Who is Father BRAHMA???

[Roy]

If Brahma Baba hadn't adopted the angelic form, none of you souls would have reached here today, because the uncertainty in the atmosphere was making the task of this world revolution fluctuate. Therefore, Brahma Baba becoming Avyakt became the reason for opening the fortune of the maximum number of children."

If Brahma Baba had died and simply vanished, the BK Yagya would have completely crumbled in a short time. Avyakt Brahma Baba Krishna the true mother knows this, and thus he has kept the BK Yagya together through his part of avayakt BapDada, played through Dadi Gulzar whilst in the remembrance of Father Shiv... In the meantime, the part of the spiritual Father is being played incognito, but in practical form, through the true corporeal Father, Prajapita-Ram.

This is another point that proves that 'Prajapita Brahma'(Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani)=Father=Mother=(same soul)

Well i can see why a soul who thinks and believes that Brahma Baba Krishna is the true Prajapita, would come to this conclusion... However, imo... the point appears to be referring to a third soul, who is neither Father Shiv, the Father of all souls... or Brahma Baba Krishna, the true mother... and who in reality, is not the true corporeal Father through whom the part of the spiritual Father is played... Yet at the same time, the true mother Brahma Baba Krishna, enters the true Prajapita's body... and thus BapDada, the mother and Father, is in front of the PBKs... and is remembered in the form of Ardhanarishwar in Bhakti marg.

[shivachild]

So are you saying that the parts of Shankar and Ram are played through the female form of Dadi Gulzar, by Brahma Baba himself... as we know it cannot be Father Shiv, as He doesn't enter a pure virgin who hasn't been corrupted by the outside world and she is never referred to as Brahma in the Murlis... nor does He enter the subtle body of Brahma Baba himself.

NO,This is the wrong belief of BKs/PBKs that Shiv entered in the body of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani/Dadi Gulzar/Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. It is No.1 Shivshakti that is just giving us the introduction of our supreme Father.

"He (Shiv) is such a highest Father, so He should enter into a body of a king or pure sage. Monks are only pure. He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin?" [Mu 15.10.69]

Yes, Shiv never enter in the body of Dadi Gulzar.

"I (Shiv) do not enter Brahma, the dweller of the Subtle Region." [Mu 04.11.72]

Yes, Shiv never enter in the subtle body of Father Brahma (angel Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani after 1969).

"Incorporeal God Father (Shiv) cannot do any work without the corporeal Father (Prajapita Brahma)... He cannot play any role (without his corporeal body)." [Mu 06.02.76]

Yes, here corporeal Father means soul of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani, Father Shiv cannot play any role without Father Brahma.

There is no mention in the last point of the angelic Father, or a pure virgin being Father Shiv's instrument... only the corporeal Father himself can play the roles of Shakar and Ram at the end... We are told that the world Father will be clearly visible at the end... so you appear to be saying that the world Father is Dadi Gulzar! Does that really feel right to you?

No, Dadi Gulzar is not a Father.

“The last bomb (of knowledge), is (the bomb) of the Revelation of the Father (at the end - Shivjayanti - in the corporeal body of the complete angel, Shankar aka Prajapita-Ram - hence the name, Shiv Shankar Bholenath)." [Av 28.12.78]

“The last bomb , is of the Revelation of the Father ." [Av 28.12.78
Yes, Father’s role is to remain incognito. He will be revealed through shivshaktis.

"When the Father(Ram ShivBaba - Shiv+Prajapita-Ram) is revealed (at the end - Shivjayanti), very famous people (in the Brahmin family) become(are shown to be) great fools (because of their opposition of Him, since 1969)." [Av 06.09.75]

"When the Father is revealed at , very famous people become great fools ." [Av 06.09.75]
Yes, when Father will be revealed through Shivshaktis .

"Shivjayanti(revelation of Father Shiv in practical form, through the corporeal body of Shankar aka Prajapita-Ram) means the effort of children comes to an end." [Av 06.03.97]

"Shivjayanti means the effort of children comes to an end." [Av 06.03.97]

Yes, when Father will be revealed through Shivshaktis .

"The World Father (Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) will be clearly visible in the world (at the end)." [Av 28.12.78][/color]

"The World Father will be clearly visible in the world ." [Av 28.12.78]
yes, through shivshaktis. World Father will be visible through devine intellect only.
Av. Vani dated 05.02.1972 says,"Therefore it is not just the parts of the mother and Father that remain incognito, because the atmosphere too will remain incognito until the end. "Victory to the Shaktis" has been remembered, whereas of the Father it has been remembered: "Oh God, your divine games are wonderful".

[Roy]

NO,This is the wrong belief of BKs/PBKs that Shiv entered in the body of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani/Dadi Gulzar/Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. It is No.1 Shivshakti that is just giving us the introduction of our supreme Father.

So who was speaking through Brahma Baba Krishna, between 1947 and 1969?.. and who was entering the souls who even Mama-Baba were following in the very early days of the Yagya?

Yes, here corporeal Father means soul of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani, Father Shiv cannot play any role without Father Brahma.

But how can Brahma Baba Krishna be the corporeal Father after 1968/9?... he has no corporeal body after this time... which is why he cannot be the true Prajapita anyway, because he(Prajapita) is the all-round soul who stays in corporeal form for the full 84 births... not even a day less.

“Prajapita Brahma will also definitely be here, isn’t it? Prajapita is a human being, isn’t it? Praja (subjects) are certainly created here only... Father does not have a Chariot. He is praised as an incorporeal entity only. He has neither a subtle body nor a physical body. When the incorporeal (Father) Himself sits in the Chariot, only then can He speak. Without a Chariot how can He purify the sinful ones? Father says, ‘I, an incorporeal being come and take the loan of his body.’ I have taken a temporary loan. He is called a lucky Chariot.” [Mu 22.12.05]

Yes, Father’s role is to remain incognito. He will be revealed through shivshaktis.

What do you mean by He will be revealed through shivshaktis?... Remember the world has to witness the Father Himself in a practical form, otherwise a belief in omnipresence will not be destroyed.

yes, through shivshaktis. World Father will be visible through devine intellect only.
Av. Vani dated 05.02.1972 says,"Therefore it is not just the parts of the mother and Father that remain incognito, because the atmosphere too will remain incognito until the end. "Victory to the Shaktis" has been remembered, whereas of the Father it has been remembered: "Oh God, your divine games are wonderful".

Yes, the part of mother and Father will remain incognito until the end, but then these parts have to revealed to the world at large. How will the impure souls of the Brahmin and world at large recognise the Father if they have to rely on divine vision?... This sounds very impractical and Bhakti like to me.

"Prajapita Brahma is (always) here (on earth in corporeal form - never in a subtle body like Brahma Baba Krishna). You have divine visions. When the corporeal (Prajapita)Brahma(Ram) becomes pure(i.e. becomes a complete angel called Shankar), then the complete subtle(Avyakt) form is seen there (i.e. witnessed through physical eyes - a subtle body cannot be seen with physical eyes)." [Mu 02.04.77]

"Angels means kings of the physical body." [Av 05.02.09]

[shivsena]

Today's Murli 5-12-13 says that "Adi-sanatan devi devta dharm ki head jagdamba honi chahiye". ("The Head of adi-sanatan devi-devta dharm should be jagdamba")

The above point clearly says that adi-sanatan devi devta dharm is established by jagdamba and not by Shankar-Virendra Dev Dixit or Krishna baccha-Lekhraj Kirpalani.

[shivachild]

So who was speaking through Brahma Baba Krishna, between 1947 and 1969?.. and who was entering the souls who even Mama-Baba were following in the very early days of the Yagya?

Period from 1937-1965 Yagya history is a big mystery. It requires lot of research.But, BKs and PBKs have made many stories.
1965-1969: Mama Om Radhey (No. 1 Shivshakti) spoken Sakar Murlis in the body of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani.
1969 onwards: Avyakt Vanis spoken by Avyakt BapDada(No.1 ShivShakti+Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani)

What do you mean by He will be revealed through shivshaktis?...

If you really want to the meaning of ‘revealation through shivshktis’ than try to understand it than churn it.

Av. Vani dated 18.01.1985 says,"Father Shiva continues to play and incognito role, so that he may be revealed through the Shaktis. He reveals the Shaktis as the embodiment of victory in front of the world."

How will the impure souls of the Brahmin and world at large recognise the Father if they have to rely on divine vision?... This sounds very impractical and Bhakti like to me.

Because ‘divine games of God are wonderful’. One can never understand this on the basis of advance knowledge.

"Angels means kings of the physical body." [Av 05.02.09]

Av. Vani dated 03.04.2012 say, “An angel does not have physical hands. So, what are Father Brahma's hands? Shrimat.”

Imo.....the word 'angel' has two meanings.

[shivachild]

Today's Murli 5-12-13 says that "Adi-sanatan devi devta dharm ki head jagdamba honi chahiye". ("The Head of adi-sanatan devi-devta dharm should be jagdamba")

Dear Shivsena, also Murli dated 14.02.2013 says,"The head of the Shakti Army is Jagadamba."

Jagdamba is also the head of Shivshakti Army.

[sita]

Period from 1937-1965 Yagya history is a big mystery. It requires lot of research.But, BKs and PBKs have made many stories.
1965-1969: Mama Om Radhey (No. 1 Shivshakti) spoken Sakar Murlis in the body of Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani.
1969 onwards: Avyakt Vanis spoken by Avyakt BapDada(No.1 ShivShakti+Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani)

There are available Murlis through Brahma Baba from 1963 and 1964. Who has spoken them?

[shivachild]

Av. Vani dated 03.04.2012 say, “An angel does not have physical hands. So, what are Father Brahma's hands? Shrimat.”
Imo.....the word 'angel' has two meanings.

Av. Vani dated 02.02.1969 says,"You can become angels even whilst staying in this corporeal world. You may then say: "why did you go and become an angel in the Subtle Region? You could have become that here!". But no: whatever is the task of the children suits the children best. Whatever is the Father's task is carried out by the Father. Children now have to reveal the results of their study to others. Does a teacher have to reveal the study? A teacher has to teach the study, and the students have to reveal that study. It is the shaktis and the Pandavs that have to be put in a showcase. BapDada is incognito anyway."

[Roy]

The above point clearly says that adi-sanatan devi devta dharm is established by jagdamba and not by Shankar-Virendra Dev Dixit or Krishna baccha-Lekhraj Kirpalani.

Yes, it clearly states in the Murlis that the gates of Heaven will be opened by the mothers... but Heaven-Ramraj itself is created by the Father, Ram ShivBaba. It is Father Shiv's teachings through the creator Father, Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar... that inspires the mothers to become powerful and thus be able to throw off their shackles and becomes the destroyers of the demons within the Brahmin family... that then allows Vaishnav Devi aka Lakshmi to recognise the truth and reunite the Brahmin family, by coming over to Father Ram, and completing the Suryvanshi clan, and creating the Rosary of Victory.

"After this Destruction there will be your kingdom. Innumerable religions will be destroyed and the religion that has now disappeared will be established. That means the gates of Heaven will open through this great war. Who will pass through these gates? Those who are studying Raja Yoga (through Shankar)." [Mu 07.02.03]

"You understand that I (Shiv) am establishing the original eternal deity religion through Brahma(Baba Krishna in the corporeal body of Jagadamba)... and that I inspire the destruction of all religions through Shankar(aka Prajapita-Ram)." [Mu 23.01.03]

"Brahma(Baba Krishna) started the work of establishment through Gyan (in corporeal from up until 1968/9); and Shankar(Prajapita-Ram) will finish it." [Mu 09.03.12]

"It is said Day of Brahma, Night of Brahma. You should take name of Brahma, not Vishnu. Brahma only becomes Vishnu. Brahma and Saraswati become two forms of Vishnu - Lakshmi-Narayan.... hence Baba had also explained in the night – In Trimurti, if Saraswati is placed instead of Shankar, it would be very easy (to explain). Brahma-Saraswati so Lakshmi-Narayan. They only become so after 84 births. The tapasya of Raja Yoga is also done here... not in Subtle Region." [Mu 03.10.76]

"Shankar's part (or role) is to be played practically. However, shaktis play the role of destruction. Shankar doesn't have to play the part of destruction. Shaktis have to take up the destructive role." [Av 01.10.71]

"You are not ordinary mothers; you are Shiv Shaktis (i.e. consorts of Shiva). Shaktis means destroyers, conquerors; one who hoists the flag of victory; one who reveals the Father to the world. While taking care of the household, always be in the unlimited intoxication that we are Shiv Shaktis, the destroyers of the devils. Father has himself come into this world for the sake of mothers. Are you happy that we called the Father and he had to come, isn’t it?... It’s the duty of the mothers to wake up their companions." [Av 09.05.84]

"The last slogan, "Bharat Mata shakti avatar" is sung... Now the avaykt part is of shakti, when everyone stablises in the shakti form, then all (of you) put together will show wonders... If everyone stablises in the shakti form, then your lost bhakts, will come in front of you like a magnet... it will not take much time." [Av 18.05.69]

[Roy]

If you really want to the meaning of ‘revealation through shivshktis’ than try to understand it than churn it.

I was just interested in your understanding of what this means.

Imo.....the word 'angel' has two meanings.... Av. Vani dated 02.02.1969 says,"You can become angels even whilst staying in this corporeal world. You may then say: "why did you go and become an angel in the Subtle Region? You could have become that here!". But no: whatever is the task of the children suits the children best. Whatever is the Father's task is carried out by the Father. Children now have to reveal the results of their study to others. Does a teacher have to reveal the study? A teacher has to teach the study, and the students have to reveal that study. It is the shaktis and the Pandavs that have to be put in a showcase. BapDada is incognito anyway."

Great point... thank you! Yes, there are the angels who will stay in practical form and become Kings of the physical body like Prajapita-Ram, who becomes the complete angel Shankar, through whom Father Shiv is revealed at the end... They then they become pure deities like Shri Narayan(Shankar) in their very same bodies, which rejuvenate after final destruction... Then there are the angels like Brahma Baba Krishna and Mama who have no body of their own at the end... and who will be re-born in the Golden Age, as the deity children of these rejuvenated deities, such as Lakshmi-Narayan of the Confluence Age.

“Ultimately there will be nothing else but this atomic bomb for the destruction of the world. For that neither an army is needed nor a captain. Now-a-days they have made such arrangements that they will explode the bomb while sitting there. You obtain Kingship while sitting here, and there they destroy everyone while sitting at one place. Your knowledge and Yoga, and their instruments of death become equal.” [Mu 20.07.09]

"Although someone may be a millionaire here, but they are still sad, because their body cannot be rejuvenated. Your body is rejuvenated." [Mu 28.01.73]

"You are not worshipped at this time because the body is not pure. When you become completely virtuous(pure), your body gets transformed(rejuventated, after 2036/7)." [Mu 10.03.12]

"In the case of snakes, there is no question of rebirth. It sheds the old skin and gets a new skin. Similarly, you too have to change over(i.e. rejuvenate)." [Mu 27.07.77]

"Father sits and explains the meaning. Just as a snake sheds its old skin, on its own; it doesn't leave one body and enter another. Only the snake is an example of changing skin. It can be seen shedding its skin, just as a person undresses. The snake also leaves the skin and gets a new one. The snake remains alive." [Mu 18.07.70]

[shivachild]

Av. Vani dated 18.01.1985 says,"Father Shiva continues to play and incognito role, so that he may be revealed through the Shaktis. He reveals the Shaktis as the embodiment of victory in front of the world."

Av. Vani 18.01.1997 says,"Do you know what pure hopes Father Brahma has for you children? The Father desires every child of his to reveal the Father's personality through his image. You have different features, but the Father's personality should be visible through your own image. Whoever sees you, and whoever comes into relationship with you, should see you but forget you, and see the Father in you; only then will there be the completion of time."

[shivachild]

There are available Murlis through Brahma Baba from 1963 and 1964. Who has spoken them?

Murli dated 23.01.1977 says,"At the Confluence Age, BapDada's slogan is: "Shaktis first". Father Brahma himself also surrendered to the mothers. You have heard that the mother is also the guru of Brahma Baba."

Who is this mother guru of Brahma Baba?

Imo......No.1 Shivshakti

[sita]

Murli dated 23.01.1977 says,"At the Confluence Age, BapDada's slogan is: "Shaktis first". Father Brahma himself also surrendered to the mothers. You have heard that the mother is also the guru of Brahma Baba."

Who is this mother guru of Brahma Baba?

Imo.....No.1 Shivshakti

This does not answer the question who has spoken the Murlis through Brahma Baba in 63.

[shivachild]

This does not answer the question who has spoken the Murlis through Brahma Baba in 63.

Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani himself on the basis of his visions

Murli dated 04.05.2013 says," You children have had visions. Baba has seen a lot more. Mama did not see anything; she never went into trance. She became very clever in knowledge. You shouldn't have any desire to go into trance. Look, Mama claimed a number so far in front even without visions.

[sita]

So this is not really a Murli. And when and what role does the Supreme Soul play?