Kamla Dixit

[Larena]

She has been displaying this mental instability since more than a decade and therefore most PBKs do not take her comments seriously.

Nobody told me this. She was introduced to me as THE MOTHER OF JAGADAMBA.

[Larena]

I cannot comment on this, but in India BK/PBK parents of BK and PBK Sisters do encourage/persuade them to surrender thinking that their daughters will earn a great fortune by serving God. And this fact has been acknowledge several times by ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) in many discussion CDs.

Yet, you cannot understand and admit, Arjun, that your Indian practice may couse severe emotional damage in someone who participate in this and that your practice of forcing your girls to fullfil parents' will may be something cruel. You are not able to admit that someone else can suffer pain from PBKs, even after you read that your practice caused it to me.

[Roy]

Yes you can. What pull me to BKs first (I was chucked out of them) and later to PBKs was tha word "knowledge" and their claim "we give you the true knowledge while the rest of the world give you lies"...

Thank you for sharing your experience further.

[Roy]

Yet, you cannot understand and admit, Arjun, that your Indian practice may couse severe emotional damage in someone who participate in this and that your practice of forcing your girls to fullfil parents' will may be something cruel. You are not able to admit that someone else can suffer pain from PBKs, even after you read that your practice caused it to me.

Dear Larena... i perhaps shouldn't interfere with your discussion with Arjun Bhai, but i feel that he very much sympathises with your experiences as a PBK, and tries to understand like the rest of us what you went through. But he has to play the part of a detached observer to the best of his ability; and deal only with the facts as he sees and knows them... and relate to us the reality of the AIVV as it stands in the present.

Your experience does reveal how far from the ideal the conditions in some Gita pathshalas are; but this is a part of drama and dare i say it karma. Imo, Baba and the AIVV appear to want to change this situation as soon as possible, but this is a practical drama taking place in the most degraded part of the cycle... there is a huge burden of sins on our heads and bad things happen, and/or souls can be in very bad shape. Also, each souls perception of events is very unique to them... you only have to compare witness statements for a crime to know that they usually vary greatly. I am not saying you haven't suffered, because you clearly have; and i genuinely feel for what you and the other souls went/are going through. I don't feel Father Shiv Himself would have been dealing with this situation though; it would be Virendra Dev Dixit ji himself doing his best, whilst at the same time understanding the karmas involved in such things, dealing with his own heavy karmas; and practicalities, like the lack of funds, resources and manpower in the AIVV. As an effort making human being, yet to reach his complete stage; he is capable of making wrong judgement calls(not that I am saying he did in this case); so it would be naive imo, to expect this not to take place at times; or for him not to reveal his ego and human frailties like the rest of us.These are not situations i would wish to have to deal with, and this is the great difficulty of his part.

I am speaking here very much of an outsider, giving my views from my comfortable home... so i realise i have no first hand knowledge of what you speak... But i am not without some knowledge and experience, and one can get a feel for a situation. All i am saying is, that although i sincerely feel for your situation and the other souls involved; i don't take any thing negative away from this in the way i see the AIVV of Virendra Dev Dixit ji... But feel i have a deeper understanding of the real trials of the Confluence Age, where powerful karmic accounts are involved, with old souls who are at the very end of their many births. This is why Father Shiv has incarnated into this world, to help souls become free of their terrible burdens... but He is not able to wave a magic wand, and some heavy stuff has to go down, before Heaven can be finally established.

I wish you all the very best for the future

Roy

[arjun]

Nobody told me this. She was introduced to me as THE MOTHER OF JAGADAMBA.

There is no need to tell. A normal person can gauge an abnormal person's behaviour with a few minutes interaction. I was once planning to bring a VIP to the headquarters of AIVV and feared that if Jagdamba's mother starts shouting abnormally (as she normally does occassinally), it would cause disservice. I asked Baba and he told me that you can inform that person beforehand that one such person lives in the premises. So, it is not that people are not informed about her.

You should also understand the positive aspect of this story. Although Jagdamba's mother has been displaying such abnormal behaviour since many many years, she has not been thrown out of AIVV to fend for herself. She continues to be served and protected to the best of their ability. There are many more such aged, infirm, mentally unstable sisters and mothers living in AIVV all over India who may be practically of no use to AIVV, but as they have surrendered their lives, they are being taken care of. Had it been BKWSU, they would have thrown her out long ago. But in AIVV most of the sisters and mothers are from poor or middle class background, yet they are given almost equal treatment.

I had narrated the example of a PBK brother who had suffered a fall from the third floor of the under construction headquarters of AIVV and suffered major fractures of the skull and lungs. He was almost dead and had lost memory for many months. But the brothers of AIVV served him so affectionately and he was given such nice treatment that he has recovered to a great extent and despite his family members wanting to take him back to his lokik home he is not at all ready to go back despite the lack of facilities at the place (mini-Madhubans) where he lives.

There are many more such cases. But you like to spread only the negative stories without giving us a chance to cross-verify the stories presented by you.

Yet, you cannot understand and admit, Arjun, that your Indian practice may couse severe emotional damage in someone who participate in this and that your practice of forcing your girls to fullfil parents' will may be something cruel. You are not able to admit that someone else can suffer pain from PBKs, even after you read that your practice caused it to me.

I do understand Larena and that is why I have never asked anyone to join AIVV without verifying the positive and so-called negative aspects of AIVV either on this forum or in my personal life. Whenever any PBK consults me about surrendering his/her children in AIVV, I advice them about all the pros and cons before they take the plunge. In your case the PBKs who introduced you to AIVV or those who guided you after you got the introduction through internet might not have given you the complete information. So, I am not to blame for that. Moreover, I have said that the true analysis of your story can be possible only if a neutral person hears your side of the story as well as the experience of AIVV or PBKs with you. What you are doing now is levelling all kinds of allegations against AIVV without giving them a chance to defend themselves (as you choose to be anonymous) and I feel this is totally wrong.

[Larena]

Although Jagdamba's mother has been displaying such abnormal behaviour since many many years, she has not been thrown out of AIVV to fend for herself.

A person who is mentaly unstable, like the mother of Mrs Kamla, needs a psychoterapeutic help and treatment. Her behavior indicates that she might be even dangerous for people around. The treatment that she received when I saw her was locking in her room for many days without permission to go out even to toilet and shower. This treatment increased her anger and abnormal behaviour. I saw this treatment of her several times. When i saw how she was treated I asked directly and openly about it. I heard the answer from a Senior Sister: "This is OK, Baba wants it to be like this. Nowadays she has a small latrine in her room. In old days she did not have. Imagine her room after a week of such isolation - nobody wanted to clean it. She had to do it herself. This is beneficial for her." I was completely shocked. I couldn't believe my ears. I did not know what shocked me more - the fact that they lock mentaly ill people or the fact that she used to be locked for days without access to a toilet.

Once, after four or five days of her isolation, which frustrated me a lot, a sister came to me and said: See how beneficial it is - she calmed down and asked for a Murli.

Not only she used to be locked by sisters. I met five or more young sisters who displayed mental instability - all of them in my opinion needed psychoterapeutic help. All of them were locked for days - this was the treatment they received. I already wrote about those who tried to kill themselves and those who used to come to me and beg me (exactly - they begged) to open the main gate and to let them out, becasue they cannot live like this, because they were surrendered by their parents against their will. One of them got mad. As the treatement she received locking. They tied her legs and hands for nights so that she could move.

Those and many other scenes come to me again and again, particularly in the early morning. I can see sad eyes full of pain, I can hear shouting, crying. I can see the sobbing Father of girl who died from TB in Delhi center - so awfully he was told lies by doctors and sisters in the center about the death of his daughter.
I propably will never able to erase all this from my mind.

[fluffy bunny]

It is always good that the factual truth be spoken ... but without any of the 'points scoring' the BKs try and add. They do exactly the same.

I guess it is also part of the more traditional Indian culture of "showing respect" to elders ... even if they don't deserve it. The BKs use the same line about the like of Janki Kripalani. Things can change and people cannot question because they have to "show respect" to a bunch of semi-senile old ladies and the half-truth stories they tell.

I think the picture about Kamla Dixit is become more clear. How much were her parents financial supporters of the AIVV?

[Larena]

There are many more such cases. But you like to spread only the negative stories without giving us a chance to cross-verify the stories presented by you. ... Moreover, I have said that the true analysis of your story can be possible only if a neutral person hears your side of the story as well as the experience of AIVV or PBKs with you. What you are doing now is levelling all kinds of allegations against AIVV without giving them a chance to defend themselves (as you choose to be anonymous) and I feel this is totally wrong.

Remember please that these are my experiences not yours and I have right to them. I saw and passed through what I write about. I don't need to lie to myself. I don't level allegations against AIVV - I describe a part of my life and very painful experience which influenced my life in a bad way.

Who could be a neutral person to hear stories of both parts ---- do you know someone who is not involved in AIVV and could become this? I represent myself, but who could represent the part of AIVV? How would like to do this without a direct face to face dialogue?

[Larena]

How much were her parents financial supporters of the AIVV?

Mrs Kamla's mother had her individual and independent from the Yagya banking account. She had her own room in the center in Delhi, but she told me that she gave money for herself there. Senior sisters from Delhi used to say that she had lots of private money. I saw her giving money to the Yagya.

[Larena]

larena wrote:
"what was the basis of these all claims concerning Sevak Ram in the Trimurti?"

arjun wrote:
"Murlis and Avyakt Vanis."


And how do those claims sound today, after revealing few documents from the early years of the Yagya? Those documents show something different that presented in the class of the Trimurti.

The first trial of searching the story of the Yagya was undertaken by one of brothers from AIVV, from Bombai. He found offsprings of a possible Sevak Ram from Calcutta. He discovered that that Sevak Ram could not be present in the Yagya in Karachi, becasue he moved to Maharashtra where he had children. He reported results to Baba and gave him all documents. Documents he gathered by him were lost in the Yagya and Baba told him not to stop his research (according to what he said himself).

Of course, we may say today - he found someone else!

I myself contacted many organisations in Calcutta in order to find same data about Sevak Ram and his wife. And what I managed to find was that his wife was not the sister of Dada Lekhraj. How can it be?! But the Trimurti class says clearly - Dada Lekhraj's sister was the wife of Sevak Ram, the bisness partner of Dada! I asked Baba about this and asked him tot help me understand the Trimurti righ from the beginning, as it is the absolute basis, which now shakes in my eyes. In response I received an answer from contractors - "Baba said so, therefore there must be truth in it". Thank you for a detailed explanation :confused:

[arjun]

A person who is mentaly unstable, like the mother of Mrs Kamla, needs a psychoterapeutic help and treatment.

But what if she refuses to visit a psychiatrist? Any sister who is ill is taken to the reputed government hospital (AIIMS) for treatment. If Jagdamba's mother permitted she would have been taken for treatment long ago. But she doesn't allow anyone to even touch her. She doesn't allow anyone to cook for her. She comes out of the headquarters and shouts bad words in the open so that all the neighbours could listen. That has spoilt the image of AIVV. But that has not prompted AIVV to throw her out.

My personal experience with her has always been good. Even when she is shouting at others or even when she starts shouting at me I do not take it seriously and try to calm her. And not just me but most other PBKs do not mind her abuses. There is a saying in Punjab that the abuses hurled at children by the mothers are like streams of ghee (clarified butter). Most of the times she is very calm and talks to me smilingly. Every time she sees me she requests me to provide a copy of the latest Avyakt Vani. If she finds any paper in my hands, she says that she will read it and give it back. It is only with some souls that she has karmic accounts and she gets angry on seeing them sometimes. She has so much faith in advance knowledge and ShivBaba's part through Shankar that she will be ready to face any Dadi or Didi of BKWSU. She always keeps encouraging PBKs do do Godly service. And she is very particular about any PBK sister who has gone back home. If any of the relatives of such sisters visit the headquarters she exhorts them to bring them back. If she is herself disturbed by the conditions or treatment given to her she would not repeatedly ask such sisters to be brought back to AIVV.

I met five or more young Sisters who displayed mental instability - all of them in my opinion needed psychoterapeutic help.

I am sure they must have been referred to psychiatrists. I can find out about their status if you convey their names to me through personal message.

How much were her parents financial supporters of the AIVV?

I don't think they were rich enough to support AIVV financially. Her Father was an ordinary government servant.

Remember please that these are my experiences not yours and I have right to them. I saw and passed through what I write about. I don't need to lie to myself. I don't level allegations against AIVV - I describe a part of my life and very painful experience which influenced my life in a bad way.

Larena, I am not denying your experiences. I am just telling you that the facts can be verified and problems can be rectified only if you reveal your identity. Otherwise, it will only be called an allegation.

You speak of some residents of AIVV needing psychiatric treatment. But if my guess about you is correct, then I can prove to any neutral person that even you were in a condition at one point of time where you needed psychiatric treatment. I have all such proofs (emails) with me which you asked me to destroy. But as I said all this can be verified only if you reveal your identity.

Who could be a neutral person to hear stories of both parts ---- do you know someone who is not involved in AIVV and could become this? I represent myself, but who could represent the part of AIVV? How would like to do this without a direct face to face dialogue?

I don't think this is possible without a face to face dialogue or at least without revealing your identity.

And how do those claims sound today, after revealing few documents from the early years of the Yagya? Those documents show something different that presented in the class of the Trimurti.

If you are aware of this, then you should also be aware that the latest set of documents about early Yagya history were obtained painstakingly by a group of PBKs and not any ex-PBKs. If Baba Virendra Dev Dixit had any wrong intentions he would have asked that team to stop their research long ago. But he encouraged them to do research at every step.

[Larena]

Experience in BK and PBK, loss of my family, husband with a lover, loss of job, lack of money, lack of place to live were behind my emotional breakdown and crisis. I have never recovered.

But, I don't know you - I have no idea who you are there in India and about what letters you write. You wrote that you know me. As I could see in this forum, you wrote the same about some other people. I know nothing more about you than there is here in this forum.

A person who will be a neutral party and a AIVV interlocutor are welcome to visit and meet me where I live now to discuss all necessary topics. We can record the entire meeting and publish it.


I posted in this sections few questions which remained ignored.

It was predicted that Jagadamba would come back to the Yagya in 2008 to play the role of "a broom". What happened to that prediction? She did not come.
It was predicted that Jagadamba would come back to the Yagya in 2012 as it was called "change of the axis". We are in January 2013, and I learnt that she had a baby in laukik and she is not the Yagya. What happened to that prediction? I also recalled the question of the story of Sevak Ram and his wife ----------- in the light of documents published here quite a lot of facts given in the Trimurti is not valid. We came to know that the sister of Dada Lekhraj was not Sevak Ram's wife ---- how can AIVV explain this? What evidence do you show that in 500 BCE when Abraham came the area of China, Europe, North Africa did not exist? They were supposed to be submerged. How do you fit the history of Jerusalem and Jews since their beginning to app 2-1 BCE in 500 years?

[arjun]

Experience in BK and PBK, loss of my family, husband with a lover, loss of job, lack of money, lack of place to live were behind my emotional breakdown and crisis. I have never recovered.

I am sorry for whatever you experienced. But my long association with BKWSU as well as AIVV has been enriching and fruitful.

But, I don't know you - I have no idea who you are there in India and about what letters you write. You wrote that you know me. As I could see in this forum, you wrote the same about some other people. I know nothing more about you than there is here in this forum.

This can be verified only when we meet face to face. I have only made an assumption and not made any definite statement.

A person who will be a neutral party and a AIVV interlocutor are welcome to visit and meet me where I live now to discuss all necessary topics. We can record the entire meeting and publish it.

I think it would not be possible for me to visit you in another country. But you are welcome to meet us in India.

It was predicted that Jagadamba would come back to the Yagya in 2008 to play the role of "a broom". What happened to that prediction? She did not come.
It was predicted that Jagadamba would come back to the Yagya in 2012 as it was called "change of the axis". We are in January 2013, and I learnt that she had a baby in laukik and she is not the Yagya. What happened to that prediction?

Apparently, the prediction has failed, but the person making the prediction and the person about whom the prediction was made are both alive. So, anything can happen in future.

I also recalled the question of the story of Sevak Ram and his wife ----------- in the light of documents published here quite a lot of facts given in the Trimurti is not valid. We came to know that the Sister of Dada Lekhraj was not Sevak Ram's wife ---- how can AIVV explain this?

I will convey your question to AIVV.

What evidence do you show that in 500 BCE when Abraham came the area of China, Europe, North Africa did not exist? They were supposed to be submerged. How do you fit the history of Jerusalem and Jews since their beginning to app 2-1 BCE in 500 years?

This is a matter of research. Christianity has been in existence since last 2000 years, and they have all the world famous historians and scientists on their side, but there are still many unsolved mysteries related to the history of Christianity, so, I think you are not justified in demanding readymade proofs from an institution which has been in existence for less than half a century with negligible number of followers and meager financial resources.

[Larena]

Please understand my point of view. What is behind my questions -
If someone announces as knowledge "in 500 BCE Europe, China, Africa did not exist, they were submerged, under water of the ocean", I need to know what is the basis of his statement. I don't want to hear from him "it is to be proved in the future", because if he wants to find proofs in the future, he cannot call what he announces as "knowledge". It is only something like assumption, speculation. Knowledge is something based on facts, build on something already proved. Knowledge means scienta (from scio scivi scitum - in Latin). It is something different "to know" and it is something different "to feel" or "to believe" or "to have faith".

How can you say: "We know that Europe, China, Africa did not exist, they were submerged, under water of the ocean" without any evidence? It would be honest to say: "We speculate that.... and we are waiting for someone to prove it." I don't demand anythong particular - just honesty in claims. Does the fact that an istitution is young and has little money justify its claiming something without evidence and making false predictions? Imo, no it doesn't.

I totally agree with you that there are many mysteries to be discovered and many not to be discovered. I agree that Christian countries brought up crowds of historians and scientists. It is another topic. What I am writing about is honesty and accuracy in making statements and announcing them. AIVV teaches that there cannot be any single mistake and whatever ShivBaba says in accurate, however predictions which were announced did not fulfilled in their predicted time. Of course, Mrs Virendra Dev Dixit and Mrs KDD are both alive and we don't know what will happen. But unfullfiled predictions will remain for ever unfullfiled. We may cover them and delude them saying that this is the unlimited language of God. I will not be surprised if one day I will learn that when Baba used to speak that Europe and China and so on were under waters of ocean, he meant something else for example that they were unknown to Indians. But at the same time I will remember my questions asked to him "do you mean that they were physically under water?" and his answer "yes". Do you understand what is behind my great disspointment and grief after years of studying in AIVV? Whatever topic you touch, whatever problem you raise - no evidence. Whatever question of facts or basis of the theory you ask about, you only receive ambiguity, "maybeness", vague explications. Imo, it cannot be called "knowledge". However, it was "sold" to me as knowledge. That is why I feel deeply, very deeply deceived by AIVV. Very often I thought about they way of conveying information in AIVV, their way of teaching, annuncing events and I found it unfair and I could find no reason which could justify that AIVV does it ].

I think it would not be possible for me to visit you in another country. But you are welcome to meet us in India.

What can I do? You wrote about a neutral observer who could judge. I agree - meeting, discussion, understanding each other's point of view - this is what can help. I am ready to meet. I can also share with you part of the book I wrote. Please come! I visited India many times in order to see, live and learn about this country. I have no more money and no more time to go there again. I lost motivation. However, I am open to meet you here or somwhere on the way between our places.

By the way, what astonishes me is that AIVV teach about foreign lands and people from there, but they don't make effort to really know them and understand them which can be obtained only while living in those societies. It seems to me that most of people from AIVV have no idea how other societies live and work - they did not experience life abroad. Muslims, Christians, Buddhists in India are different from Muslims, Christians, Buddhists in other countries. I can say it based on my own experience. It cannot be said that we may know all foreigners by knowing what they are like in India. This is completely wrong imo. What particularly astonishes me is that Mrs Virendra Dev Dixit cannot even communicate in English at least on A2 level. I cannot understand it. On one hand he teaches that "he gives preference to English", on the other hand he cannot conduct a simple conversation in English with a foreign student. His using English words in Murlis causes a lot of confusion and misunderstanding, mainly because he uses English words wrong. Of course, I don't mean that he would narrate his classes in English, but simply communicate in English when he meets with people from abroad. It astonishes me also because alledgely he is a very educated man in laukik terms. He obtained PhD education - university education on the third level. All PhD students from India and in India who I know can easily communicate in English.

[arjun]

Please understand my point of view. What is behind my questions -
If someone announces as knowledge "in 500 BCE Europe, China, Africa did not exist, they were submerged, under water of the ocean", I need to know what is the basis of his statement. I don't want to hear from him "it is to be proved in the future", because if he wants to find proofs in the future, he cannot call what he announces as "knowledge". It is only something like assumption, speculation. Knowledge is something based on facts, build on something already proved. Knowledge means scienta (from scio scivi scitum - in Latin). It is something different "to know" and it is something different "to feel" or "to believe" or "to have faith".

How can you say: "We know that Europe, China, Africa did not exist, they were submerged, under water of the ocean" without any evidence? It would be honest to say: "We speculate that.... and we are waiting for someone to prove it." I don't demand anythong particular - just honesty in claims. Does the fact that an istitution is young and has little money justify its claiming something without evidence and making false predictions? Imo, no it doesn't.

I agree with you and that is the reason why I have never presented the advance knowledge in that way on the forum. I have always said that these are the beliefs of the PBKs and that there are many aspects which need research. Well, whether all this research related to BK/PBK knowledge will be completed before 2036 cannot be answered now. Until then we can only say that these are our beliefs.

What can I do? You wrote about a neutral observer who could judge. I agree - meeting, discussion, understanding each other's point of view - this is what can help. I am ready to meet. I can also share with you part of the book I wrote. Please come! I visited India many times in order to see, live and learn about this country. I have no more money and no more time to go there again. I lost motivation. However, I am open to meet you here or somwhere on the way between our places.

I hope we can meet one day. But I don't see that happening in the near future. But we can always communicate through this forum.

By the way, what astonishes me is that AIVV teach about foreign lands and people from there, but they don't make effort to really know them and understand them which can be obtained only while living in those societies. It seems to me that most of people from AIVV have no idea how other societies live and work - they did not experience life abroad. Muslims, Christians, Buddhists in India are different from Muslims, Christians, Buddhists in other countries. I can say it based on my own experience. It cannot be said that we may know all foreigners by knowing what they are like in India. This is completely wrong imo.

Just as BK sisters were sent abroad for Godly serivce, it is possible that one day PBK sisters and mothers will be sent abroad for service. And may be Baba Virendra Dev Dixit himself will travel abroad and get first hand information about the foreign lands and their culture.

What particularly astonishes me is that Mrs Veerendra Dev Dixit cannot even communicate in English at least on A2 level. I cannot understand it. On one hand he teaches that "he gives preference to English", on the other hand he cannot conduct a simple conversation in English with a foreign student. His using English words in Murlis causes a lot of confusion and misunderstanding, mainly because he uses English words wrong. Of course, I don't mean that he would narrate his classes in English, but simply communicate in English when he meets with people from abroad. It astonishes me also because alledgely he is a very educated man in laukik terms. He obtained PhD education - university education on the third level. All PhD students from India and in India who I know can easily communicate in English.

You should understand that he has not studied in English medium schools or colleges. So, if you expect him to be speaking English then it is unfair. He admits his inability to speak English. He says that one can learn a language well only if he moves around with people speaking that language. There are Sakar Murli points which say that this Chariot knows a little English.

As regards all Ph.D students in India being able to speak English, I don't think it is correct. I have some colleagues who have completed their Ph.Ds (some in English literature) but do not feel comfortable in speaking English. They always speak in Hindi.