Mbbhat's Views and Churnings

[fluffy bunny]

Hope you understand the meaning of logic.

You are making a mistake to use the work "logic" ... or rather you are doing the usual BK thing of taking an already existing and valuable term, and re-defining it to suit your own ends.

You might say "BK logic" or "the meaning of my words" ... but it is not logic.

I would say that Brahma Kumarism does not demand nor operate on logic. It is more of a cumulative "adaptive strategy". There is probably a proper term for it, I must look for it.

Logic is rigid and exacting. Brahma Kumarism is vague, malleable and cryptic (hidden or obscure).

Yes, you are correct. BKs are conditioned to be flexible and adaptive rather than rigid, accurate and exacting. At a lokik level, this gives the religion its strength. Nothing matter, paradoxes and contradiction co-exist as "truths". "Truth" is falsehood or lies and falsehood or lies are "Truth", it does not matter. 2036 will come and go it will not matter to who ever leads it at that time.

The BK god is the Ocean of Truth ... but then makes false statements. Predictions are made ... but fail and are re-written. Knowledge is fixed and true ... and then is changed. Only their God's word is Shrimat ... and then they pick and choose from lowly human sources and follow it.

Nothing matters as long as business is good and money keeps coming in. It's "show business" now.

Even "soul consciousness" has been redefined from soul consciousness to conforming and accepting to whatever they are told to believe.

As to which one of has our head upside (low understanding), only time will tell.

But here it is different. They have not seen or heard of Brahma Baba.

No, you are misinformed there. Their stories are identical. You should try and become more informed, but I understand you won't do so.

They see visions of their gurus or avatars, they see them in advance of meeting them, they even see or claim to have their guru/teacher/avatar manifest directly in front of them and then go on to meet them in person later. The reports are universal from all religions and nations.

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 35

You might say "BK logic" or "the meaning of my words" ...

i meant the same thing. You cannot understand simplest of simple things. what can be done? [It is PBKs who depend on figures and facts, so it is their responsibility to prove them, not the other]. even after conveying the meaning in words, it is of no use!

Their stories are identical.

How many stories have you read to come to that conclusion? Becoming so judgmental indicates how much deeply you have studied this.

So- do you think- all those gurus and saints are immoral, stupid like Dada Lekhraj and attained these by some tantric study?

And I believe it is ShivBaba only giving visions even there about lowkik gurus. so- there is no surprise to me even if there is some similarities. Because vision cannot be developed or given by tantric things.- this is my belief according to Murli points. still i cannot explain fully or rightly in similar things- like Subtle Region, subtle body, etc. which i will write here - but they will be limited only up to my level of churning.

Mama was an idiot

Some more things about this:- Mama had cancer, but no feeling of pain was visible on her face.

And the doctor who operated Mama,- when he was asked - how much is the fees?- he replied- will any son charge fees for operating his mother?

That doctor (non BK) also had developed a feeling of mother about Mama.

I have heard this from experience of a senior BK brother. Now, it is left to the individual to believe or not.
-----
Even the global hospital at mount abu was established as per request/suggestion of outside doctors who operated Gulzar Dadi. They were impressed by her mental state.

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 36

Example No. 10 :- GREAT DIFFICULTY FOR ShivBaba IN THE BEGINNING:-

Imagine a human being needs to train dogs/animals. There is need to pass message from the human being to the dogs. Initially all the dogs would be 100% doggy/dogly. It would be very difficult for the man to make those dogs understand him. So- it will be a very slow process.

But passing message from a dog to another dog is much simpler, because the communication is very simple. So- after few dogs are trained, then the training of the next dogs can be done by those trained dogs much faster.

In the above, replace the human being by ShivBaba who is incorporeal and the dogs are human beings. So- the training of the first group of dogs (nearly 400 BKs in 1936) would be very difficult task. Once those BKs realize the knowledge/message, then they can educate other dogs/people much faster.

I think- it is due to this difficulty, ShivBaba had to use Bhaktimarg way and he might have said- I am indivisible light, then ling, then thumb, then star, then point. So- what a challenging work it is!

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 37

Example No. 11 :- WHO ALL ARE CREATORS and HOW?

In Murli,

Sometimes Baba says- creator is just one ShivBaba.
Sometimes says- even Prajapita/Brahma is also creator.
Sometimes says- even Jagadamba is also creator.
Sometimes specifically says Prajapita/Brahma is/are not creator.

1)Here Baba says- JUST SHIV ALONE IS CREATOR:-

SM 18-10-72(1):- To baap baith samjhaate hain main saare kalp vruksh ka beejroop hun. Yah to BVS athvaa Krishn bhi kah nahin saktey. EK SHIV KE SIVAA KISKO BHI CREATOR NAHIN KAHA JAA SAKTAA. VAHI EK CREATOR HAI. Baaki sabhi uskey creation hain. Ab creator se creation ko varsaa miltaa hai. Sabhi kahte bhi hain humko Ishwar ne athvaa Khudaa ne athvaa God ne paidaa kiya. TO IS EK ISHWAR KO SABHI Father KAHENGE. Gandhi ko to Father nahin kahenge. Behad ka rachaitaa Baap vah ek hee hai. Vah baith samjhaate hain ki main hee tunmhhaaraa paaralowkik param priy parmatma hun. -168 [vah, creator]

= .... Except the one shiv, no one else can be called as Creator. .........


2)Here Baba says- BRAHMA IS NOT CREATOR:-

SM 13-6-82(2):- Parampita Parmatmma Brahma dwara srushti rachte hain. Brahma creator nahin. Creator niraakaar Shiv parmatma ko hee kahenge. Vah aakar Prajapita Brahma dwara adopt karte hain. -60 [creator]

= Supreme God Father creates through Brahma. BRAHMA IS NOT CREATOR…..


3)Here Baba says- PRAJAPITA IS NOT CREATOR:-

SM 30-9-83(2):- Baap aakar samjhaate hain rachtaa Baap manushy srushti ki rachnaa kaise karte hain. Yah koyi bhi nahin jaante. BAAP HEE SAMJHAATE HAIN PRAJAPITA BRAHMA KO CREATOR NAHIN KAHENGE. BHAL PRAJAPITA KAHAA JAATAA HAI PARANTU VAH RACHTAA NAHIN. Manushy kahte hain humko Allaah ne paidaa kiyaa. Niraakaar Father ko hee rachaitaa kahenge. -13- [creator, Prajapita]

=.....Father himself explains that- PRAJAPITA BRAHMA CANNOT BE CALLED AS CREATOR. OF COURSE, HE IS CALLED AS PRAJAPITA (Father OF HUMANS), BUT HE IS NOT CREATOR. People say that- Allah created us. The only incorporeal Father is called as creator.
[note that- here Baba has also used the lowkik people’s belief]

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 38 -- continuation from last post---Example No. 11----

4)Here Baba says- BOTH JAGADAMBA AND JAGATPITA ARE CREATORS:-

SM 30-5-82(1):- Geeth- Maataa O maataa…. Om Shanti. Bachchon ne apni Maa ki mahimaa suni? Bachche to bahut hain. Samjhaa jaataa hai barobar Baap hai to zaroor Maa bhi hai. Bharat may maataa ke liye bahut achchi mahimaa gaayi jaati hai. Bada melaa lagtaa hai Jagdamba kaa. Koyi na koyi prakaar se Maa ki poojaa hoti hai. Baap ki bhi hoti hogi. Vah Jagadamba hai to vah Jagatpita hai. JAGADAMBA Sakar MAY HAIN TO JAGATPITA BHI Sakar MAY HAIN. IN DONON KO RACHAITAA HEE KAHENGE. Yah to Sakar hai na. Niraakaar ko hee kahaa jata hai God Father. Mother Father ka raaz to samjhaayaa gayaa hai. Choti Maa bhi hai, Badi Maa bhi hai. Mahimaa choti Maa ki hai. -38[maatpita, creator]

= ....when there is Jagadamba in Sakar, even Jagatpita also would be in Sakar. [= both of them have played their roles together in the same period- that is Confluence Age]. BOTH OF THESE CAN BE CALLED AS CREATORS ONLY….......

It was difficult to find satisfactory explanation to these Murli points. But, the following Murli point gave a direction to my churning.

5) SM 26-12-83(2):- Tum varsaa le rahe ho daadey sey. Is Baba ki property nahin hai. SWARG RACHTAA HAI ShivBaba, NA KI BRAHMA. BRAHMA MANUSHY SRUSHTI KAA RACHAITAA HAI. Brahma mukh kamal se braahman varn rachaa gayaa hai. Tum ho shiv ke potrey arthaath Ishwariy sampradaay. -73- [creator, ER]

= ...…Creator of heaven is ShivBaba, not Brahma. Brahma is the creator of humanity…......

Then I came to the following conclusion:-

It is ShivBaba who purifies all. Hence he is the creator of heaven or the real creator. But, for purification, there is need of effort. (It is not that ShivBaba purifies by magic). So- the effort by human beings is also an equally important factor that determines the practical level/result.

The practical (new) human tree (creation) begins only from heaven. Because it is only after the establishment of heaven the incorporeal souls descend from Paramdham and become human beings (receive human body). So- the practical human creation begins only from Satyug. By the time Satyug begins, Shiv will be in the retirement and it is LN (souls of Jagadamba and Jagatpita) who will be ruling the world/heaven. So- they are like creators/leaders then. This is the reason why the name of mala changes from Rudrmala into Vishnumala.

So- Brahma is called as creator of humanity in two senses. He is the land mark or the highest level that can be attained by human beings and it is he who rules the human beings. They are the guides/base to the others. It is LN souls who open gate to other souls to descend and hence to the growth of the human tree in the corporeal world.

Hence in the word/sentence “Divine Father God Prajapati Brahma”- there is meaning to till “Divine Father Prajapati Brahma”.

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 39

Example No. 12:- PRAJAPITA IS Ram:-

I have read a Murli point – Prajapita ko Ram kahaa jaataa hai= Prajapita is called as Ram. [Unfortunately, at that time, I did not note down that Murli point. More i may write when i see that full Murli]

Now, some may say- “Where in BKWSU there is belief that Prajapita as Ram? So- since there is no such belief in BKWSU, BKWSU do not understand Murli points properly”.

Reply:- Usually, it is said in Murli that- ShivBaba is not Prajapita/Jagatpita. But in rare case, the title Jagatpita is also given to ShivBaba (see the following Murli point). So- I think- even in this case (when it is said- Ram is said to Prajapita), it can still refer to ShivBaba.

9-7-81(1):- Ab Jagadamba ko barobar Sakar may dikhate hain. Sharirdhari hai. Jagatpita bhi hai jisko Prajapita bhi kaha jata hai. Jaise saare Jagat ki Amba hai, vaise saare Jagat ka pita hai. Zaroor donon hee yahaan honge. Donon ka bhi naam sunaya. Donon hai Prajapita aur Prajamata. AB DOOSRAA JAGATPITA KAHA JATA HAI NIRAKAR ShivBaba KO. SABKA PITA HAI. UNKA NAAM HEE HAI PARAMPITA PARAMATMA Shiv.

= Jagadamba (Mother or world) is shown in Sakar. (She is) bodily personality. Jagatpita(Father of world) is also there who is also called as Prajapita. Like there/she is mother of whole world, there/he is Father of the whole world. Definitely both would be here. Names of both are said. The two are Prajapita(Father of citizens) and PrajaMata(Mother of praja= citizens). Now the SECOND JAGATPITA IS SAID FOR INCORPOREAL ShivBaba. He is Father of ALL. His name itself is Parampita paramatma Shiv.

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 40 ---example- 12-----

Just supplying Murli points that say Shiv is not Prajapita

SM 15-5-81(2):- Brahma ka Baap koun? ShivBaba. Oonch te oonch. Peeche hai Brahma. Phir Brahma dwara rachna hoti hai. Prajapita toh Brahma ko hi kaha jata. SHIV KO PRAJAPITA NAHIN KAHENGE. Shiv sabhi nirakar aatmaavon kaa Baap hai. Phir yahaan aakar PRAJAPITA BRAHMA dwara adopt karte hain. Baap samjahte hain maine ismey pravesh kiya hai. -24

= ........Shiv is not called as Prajapita…....

SM 14-2-87(1):- ShivBaba sabhi ko kahte hai, in Brahma ko bhi kahte hain inki atma bhi ab sun rahi hai. Tum ab braahman ho. HAREK MANUSHY MAATR ShivBaba KA BACHCHAA BHI HAI, TO BRAHMA BABA KA BHI BACHCHAA HAI. BRAHMA HAI GGGF JISMAANI. AUR ShivBaba HAI SABKA RUHAANI BAAP. ShivBaba KO PRAJAPITA NAHIN KAHENGE. ShivBaba ATMAAVON KAA BAAP HAI.

= .....ShivBaba is not called as Prajapita......

Actually, for me, there is no difference between Shiv and ShivBaba- which is already explained here below in the link. but, still, I mentioned both the Murli points for those who have doubt in that.

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2102

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 41

Example no. 13:- Who experiences pain when Gulzar Dadi coughs?

PBKs comment-" when Gulzar Dadi coughs, who will experience pain? It cannot be that soul since she is out of her senses during that time. It cannot be even ShivBaba (even if BKs believe shiv is preesent in her) since he is god. So- it should be Brahma Baba. Then it implies brahma Baba is not complete!"

Reply:- While operating a person, he is given anesthesia. During that time, that soul does not experience any pain. So- should we say- someone should experience pain at any cost?

Even during coma stage, one does not experience his physical body condition.

So- what necessity is there to experience pain?

And forget about all these. What about feeling of cold, heat, wind, etc? Is it OK to say then that BB can experience heat, cold etc through body, but not pain?

And- when a person is in sound sleep, some small physical touches or even movements either by external or internal will not be experienced by the person/soul. So- does it imply that someone should be accounted and should experience that physical action? No; is it not?

So- That soul (BB) also remain detached irrespective of whether the cough comes or not.

Very simple, is it not?
------
From an ocean even if we take a drop or add, it will experience nil. similarly, for a karmaateet soul like BB, it is like natural anesthesia.

[fluffy bunny]

That does not follow ... whereas I can 'understand' the PBK logic (... but not need to accept or dismiss it).

A cough (sickness) is a sign of the return of negative karmic settlement.

Shiva cannot have negative karma, and Gulzar is out of the body.

So who has the cough? It cannot be Shiva and it cannot be Gulzar.

Therefore it must be someone else and that individual must still have negative karmic accounts to settle.

Who else is it or could it be ... therefore Lekhraj Kirpalani.

Your response does not address of the cause of the cough (unsettled karmic accounts) or the logical of the argument at all, it just talks about some other distraction. No one is under anesthesia.

The BK theory is the body of Gulzar is possessed by Shiva and Lekhraj Kirpalani ... and Gulzar is out of it somewhere else. But it is all impossible to prove. Some people just say it is an act she puts on but I think she does channel some other energy at times. What it is, I don't know but the quality of it is not that high, complete or perfect.

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 42

1)Therefore it must be someone else and that individual must still have negative karmic accounts to settle.

2)Who else is it or could it be ... therefore Lekhraj Kirpalani.

1)No need of this. this is what i had explained there. Does the soul moves out of the body of a person whose body is being operated on which anesthesia is given? No; is it not?

does that soul experiences pain? No! (because of anesthesia)

So- when a soul can be in the body without need to experience pain or feelings, what is the need that Dada Lekhraj should experience something there?

2)Hence this point does not rise at all.

[fluffy bunny]

I have no idea how believers in the Law of Karma explain anesthetics. I suppose they just make up a child-like explanation like ... "the person had bad luck to get sick or have an accident, but good luck not to feel the pain and get hospital treatment". That's the thing about religion, you can just make things up as you go along.

I don't believe in the simplistic view of Karma and I've not met one BK who can explain how it works yet.


So are you saying BapDada some how "anesthetizes" Gulzar and she does not leave her body?

Is there anything in the Murlis to support that, has Gulzar ever suggested this happens ... or it is a new theory?

I would say it is of no value to convolute yourself and hypothesise in such a manner.

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 43

So are you saying BapDada some how "anesthetizes" Gulzar and she does not leave her body?

Just think- why ShivBaba does not experience anything when he enters a body. He has power of aneasthisia in himself as natural.

So- any soul that is pure will have such power. So- I said that- BB need not experience through body of Gulzar in case that soul is sleeping.

For example- when a person is in deep sleep, if we touch physically, the person will not feel it at all. So- then who is going to experience that? no one, is it not?

So- when we see some physical changes one need not equate that- someone should experience it. If the soul is detached (either by anaesthisia or by sleep) or by karmaateet stage, even the physical changes will not affect the soul.

So- one cannot judge by coughing of Dadi - that- soul of brahma Baba is incomplete. this was the summary.

[But of course, I cannot prove that BB is complete . But I believe so according to Avyakt Murli points and also a few Sakar Murli points]

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 44

Example No. 14:- Is there Subtle Region?

PBKs comment and criticize BKs by saying that- “BKs believe in Subtle Region, subtle things, but actually Subtle Region does not exist at all”. and even many BKs also have confusion in this. So- i am discussing about these here.

Now- Is dream real? Definitely not. But is not the experience during that time real? Definitely (for that duration) YES. If a person can have connectivity with the dream throughout his life, then dream is 100% real for him.

In physical wealth real? Yes of course. But if one cannot know how to use it, then even the real things become unreal/waste to them.

We think of heaven now. But is there heave at present? Definitely No. Then does it imply thinking or remembering heaven at present is incorrect? Then it is as good as saying – do not think of the goal at present, since you are far from the goal now!

Actually, most of all the real things are unreal and unreal are real. Body and physical world are real. But when we try to feel them as real, we begin to lose ourselves (we degrade). From Satyug, we go on descending!

In the above-
Real = visible= physical = mortal = temporary
Unreal= invisible = immortal= permanent

Movies are unreal/imaginary, and the relations what we have are real/actual. But, people wish to see movies. They enjoy more in movies (movies). Why? It is very simple. There is no attachment, dependency or bondage in them (movies) which are cause for sorrow in the present relations. So- it is immaterial whether it exists or not. If what we think is of higher level (more pure) than what we are or where we are, it will benefit us.

The present body, and the world are the highest impure things. So- if we try to forget these, it would be a great benefit to us.

Actually soul does not belong to the physical world. It is beyond the physical world. The moment it loses its contact from the Paramdham, it starts degrading. Now- what is the cause for the degradation? Is it the physical one? Actually not that. It is mental. When the soul thinks of the physical body, begins to like the body, then only it loses its value. So- it is the mental connectivity to physical thing that makes the soul to lose its energy and not physical connectivity.

This is the reason why even if there is physical connection with the Silence world and god in Paramdham, no soul gets recharged. And mind will work only when a soul is present in a body. So- a soul being in the body, should forget body and materials and relations. This only will recharge it.

Now, there are - Paramdham, ShivBaba, Subtle Region, subtle body, etc. All these are of higher level than the present body and world. So- thinking of those will bring benefit to us, however it is.

But, the best is seed stage – Remembrance of ShivBaba . then the other things/stages.

What we experience is not where we are, but what we think:- Even while being in Paramdham, we will not be able to experience it. We can experience it only now, during Confluence Age.

Baba has said both Murli points- few as Subtle Region really exists, in a few, it does not exist. Just vision happen. More interestingly- in few other points, Baba says- the knowledge itself is the vision! Wonderful! So- the aim is to experience soul conscious stage and go beyond material feeling. One can practice in any way, if one feels lightness, he can continue without any doubt. .

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 45 -- continuation from last post-------

Why Baba introduced concept of Subtle Region?
One to satisfy lowkik people- since they also believe that BVS reside up above in some world.

Second- to make children to go into trance, etc so that to keep them moving when there was no enough knowledge in the beginning,
Third- to give messages to children. [because the children's intellect should be driven somewhere beyond the physical world so that they can experience it. and since it is said- going to Paramdham will be only in the end, then another place is required to make the intellect settle]

Fourth- as a support for those who cannot concentrate on point and forget the body totally. They can think of subtle body with soul. During that time, the feeling of soul may not be there much. But the downward pull of corporeal body is reduced to a great extent. So- in the feeling of subtle body, the positive may be less, but negative effects are eliminated.

Now, where do BKs believe/imagine the Subtle Region? It is next to Silence World, very close to it. BKs believe that during Confluence Age, the lowest portion of the IW (Incorporeal World) will turn as Subtle Region. So- the remembrance of Subtle Region will give the second level of experience which is next to the seed stage. What harm is there in it?

Now- does Subtle Region really exists? :-
That depends on where Brahma Baba or Baapdaada reside/s after 1969. Definitely they cannot ride any Chariot the whole day. If we believe the Subtle Region does not really exist, then Bap-Dada or BB will have to stay somewhere in the physical world only. Then the question arises- in the PW, where they could be? Could they be in the ground level or few hundred meters above? But, why not they can stay just above the PW (physical world)? And logically, it seems that is more accurate.

So- I believe- the Subtle Region might not be existing practically till 1969, like till 1969, there was no subtle Brahma in reality (it was just image used for visions), but after 1969 the Subtle Region really exists (that region is used physically).

Else- if BB or ShivBaba need to stay in this impure physical world all the rest of the time after leaving the Chariot, it is like a great disgrace to both of them. It is like forcing the two pure souls to be in the impure world all the time even when there is no need.

[mbbhat]

# Post No. 46

And what/where is Subtle Region (SW)? It is the lowest portion of the IW (Incorporeal world). So- when one thinks of Subtle Region, he is practically thinking of IW only! - but of course a subtle body is also remembered together.
--------------------
Few Murli points:-

1)SM 15-1-76(1):- Oonch te oonch hai bhagavaan. Phir sookshmvatanvaasi BVS kah dete hain. VO KOYI HAI NAHIN. Baap inkaa bhi arth samjhate hain, yah sirf saakshaatkaar hota hai. Sookshmvatan beech kaa hai na jahaan sharir nahin ho sakte. Sookshm sharir sirf divvy drushti se dekhaa jaataa hai. Brahma to hai safed vastradhaari.

= Highest of High is God. Next Subtle Region residents BVS. (But in reality) they(BVS) are not present (as subtle deities). Father explains even the meaning of this, just vision happens...

2)SM 21-1-89(1):- Shiv aur Shankar ko manushyon ne milaakar ek kar diyaa hai. Kahte hain Shankar vinaash karte hain. Unsey aankh kholee toh vinaash ho gayaa. Vinaash toh bombs se, natural calamaties se hotaa hai. Shiv Shankar mahadev kahte hain. Yah chitr koyi yathaarth naheen. Sab arth rahit hain. Yah sab Bhaktimarg ke chitr hain. Vahaan aisee koyi baath naheen. PPB bhee dehdhaaree hai. Kitney dher bachche hain. Yah sab chitr poojaa ke liye hee hain. Baap ne samjhaayaa hai yah vyakt, vah Avyakt. Jab Avyakt bane hain toh faristaa ho jaate. MOOLVATAN, SOOKSHMVATAN DONON HAIN ZAROOR. Sookshmvatan may bhee jaate hain. Baap ne samjhaayaa hai PPB jo manushy hai, vahee faristaa bantaa hai. Phir raajaayi kaa bhee usmey dikhaayaa hai. Phir yah raajy karenge. SOOKSHMVATAN KAA CHITR NA HO TOH SAMJHAANE MAY MUSHKILAATH HO. Vaastav may Vishnu kaa chaturbhuj roop bhee naheen. Yah hain Bhaktimarg ke chitr. Baap samjhaate hain aatmaa ko hee patit se paavan ban_naa hai. -27 [Prajapita, Chitr, sookshmvatan]

= .....Definitely IW and SW exist....Without the picture of Subtle Region, it would be difficult to explain (the knowledge) ...