Why no saints? Why only duplicates abound in Bk/ PBK?

[satyaprakash]

As a non BK , non PBK, I do not have the compulsions of believing some pet concepts of these cults.

I wonder why they do not respect any individual guide/guru/teacher for what he/she is. Only non existing duplicates are respected.

Janaki was respected as someone spoke through her.
Gulzar is respected because some one entered
Virendra Dev Dixit is respected as some one else entered him
xxx is respected as some YYY entered her.
There is only a lot of fights as to who entered whom?

It is siva, says one gang. No it is only Krishna. No, it is Bramha. No no it is Durga. No it is Rama's soul. No it is Vishnu. No it is the relative of some one who siva entered. No, no, originally siva entered this fellow. No it is only the Krishna who is speaking from this guy or that ma. Cheat. Blame. Fight. Abuse. Use violence if needed. Shut up a lot of women to ensure compliance in believing that some one has entered some one else.

So for these cults, every living person is only a body! No respect for any one. Someone has to enter and give speeches from that 'body' and every one has to believe.

Is it not only a childish belief to fight this way? What a pity!

Why don't you respect some living individuals for what they are? Why every one needs an alibi? What a confusion!

Satya.

[arjun]

Satyaprakash,
The controversy surrounding the entry of a soul into someone else is only in respect of Gulzar Dadiji and Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. BKs say that Shiv+Brahma's soul enter in Gulzar Dadi whereas PBKs say that Shiv+Brahma enter in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. And the basis for this entry is in Gita itself where the word 'प्रविष्टुम' (praveshtum) has been used. God says - I am ajanma (I don't get birth through a womb). I am avinashi (imperishable), Avyakt (unmanifest). So, I enter in another human being. The memorial of God's entry into a human Chariot has been depicted as Krishna driving the Chariot of Arjun. It is not a physical horse-ridden Chariot, but a horse-like body.
OGS,
Arjun

[fluffy bunny]

I wonder why they do not respect any individual guide/guru/teacher for what he/she is.

There is a lot of emphasis on not thinking about any other human being, not having any attachment to any other human being, not creating any karma with any other human being. All the focus is meant to be on the god.

Of course, many do become devotees of the various senior sisters and many of the senior sisters have a fond remembrance of Lekhraj Kirpalani but, in general, it is a sort of taboo.

The other reason is, I think, there is not much emphasis placed on the kind of greatness you would recognise, e.g. intellectual greatness or performing charity towards humanity. In my opinion, the emphasis is placed on conforming and repeating to the thoughts or words of the god and performing the typical kinds of charity, e.g. feeding poor, looking after children & sick etc, is frowned upon. Especially within the BKs, the emphasis is on self-advertising, chasing VIPs ... and, latterly, breaking world records for stuff like "The Most People Dressed like Gandhi" or sand painting.

Certainly, many of the younger BKs, and often many of the Western adherents, are far more intellectually gifted and educated than the old original BKs, but it does not really seemed to be recognised or valued. Sticking around for a long time seems to count for more. There really is not a great body of authoritative scriptures to remember or think about and, as you have read here, the BKs tend to keep them at a very simplistic level.

Perhaps what is more respected is money, or the ability to pull money into the religion.

[satyaprakash]

God says - I am ajanma (I don't get birth through a womb). I am avinashi (imperishable), Avyakt (unmanifest).

May be a rough translation of Bagavad Gita with interpolations from Arjun!

So, I enter in another human being.

This is the words of babas of bk and pbk and not of B.Gita.
'Entering' is not a BG concept. Avatar or being born in a human form is known. But this entering this and that body is an invention of bk/pbk cults only.
'womb' is a taboo with BK and PBKs.
Hindu Gods are perfectly OK being born from the womb in case of avatars.

Certainly, many of the younger BKs, and often many of the Western adherents, are far more intellectually gifted and educated than the old original BKs, but it does not really seemed to be recognised or valued. Sticking around for a long time seems to count for more.

They do not want to be questioned on their concepts. It is like India's ruling family (Sonia!) who only reward loyalty and blind obedience.
'Education' or having degrees is different from thinking and questioning. There are many dumb idiots who may have degrees but who blindly follow.

Perhaps what is more respected is money, or the ability to pull money into the religion.

When idiots join, their money also comes with them. No need to make special efforts.
That is why all these Babas in India are so comfortable without taking any big effort. They need not even talk sense. The ignorant adherents to these faiths simple follow him telling that he talked something great, when they do not understand anything he talks in his tours or sitting in the comfort of Delhi.
Satya

[arjun]

'Entering' is not a BG concept. Avatar or being born in a human form is known. But this entering this and that body is an invention of BK/PBK cults only.

Then do you believe the story that the soul of Shankaracharya entered into the dead body of a king to experience household life before defeating Pundit Mandan Mishra in debates on scriptures?

Then, don't you believe the concept of devis and devatas entering into human bodies on festivals all over India to make forecasts or even otherwise?

Then, don't you believe that people are overpowered by ghosts/evil souls and act strangely after which they are taken to Muslim Aulias and other saints to get rid of these evil souls?

Just as good and evil souls can enter into another human being to perform good or bad acts, God enters in a human being, too to narrate knowledge. He need not spend a lifetime to grow and then give knowledge.

If you believe in God's incarnation as Ram and Krishna, you will also have to believe in Kansa and Ravana, which are just imaginary figures. We at least believe something that can be practically possible. Your beliefs are full of imaginations, rituals and traditions which are of no use to the world. I have already discussed these topics with you. So, I hope you will not argue repeatedly like mbbhat Bhai and waste our time.

You are free to believe in mythological imaginary stories to be true. We are happy to believe that God has entered in a human being to give us knowledge and teach RajYoga to change us from sinful human beings to pure deities.

OGS,
Arjun

[satyaprakash]

change us from sinful human beings to pure deities.

oH SINNERS, COME TO ME AND I WILL GIVE YOU DELIVERANCE! - Bible.

For the bible believers, all are sinners.

Hindus believe that we are all Amrutasya Putras. Blissful Immortal souls. If sin gets attached to you get purified and get out of sin. No cribbing and running behind some one in whom someone else entered.

Deities is some meaningless word coined for the convenience of that person in whom some god is supposed to have entered.

Yogis use parakaya pravesa for some special purposes. Even if we do not believe it we are safe as our religion is not dependent on paraskaya praveshis!

Some spirits and devils etc keep troubling people. Some may give oracles for a short time under the influence of some village gods. Such things do not happen for sattvic gods. There is no need to permanent entering stuff!

One guy is walking around calling himself the permanent vehicle of the God! Poor god. He has to manage the world sitting in a stinking human body!

God has no such need to enter anyone. He can will and he can get his message across.

Anyhow, as you believe that you are a sinner, please go behind whom you want.

Best wishes to wash off your sin and become a 'deity'!

As you are already being troubled by some mbbhat of bk following, you can keep answering him. I will not question you for now. Use your time in washing your sins by going behind the person in whom some god has entered.
Regards,
Satya.

[fluffy bunny]

For the bible believers, all are sinners ... Hindus believe that we are all Amrutasya Putras. Blissful Immortal souls.

I always though Lekhraj Kirpalani must have been influenced by some Christians because some of his ideas seem to come more from Christianity than Hinduism.

Of course, BKs and PBKs might argue the other way around ... that due to the 5,000 year Cycle Christianity took its ideas from Lekhraj Kirpalani but I suspect he must have had some influence, e.g. Destruction, this idea of sin, his interest and affection for Christ more than other prophets in the Murlis.

The truth is, we don't know very much about Lekhraj Kirpalani's life and influences. The BKs only present a child's comic book version of his life and no intelligent discussion at all.

Of course, we know the BKs are also hiding facts ... sadly, they are skilled in creating delusions and falsehoods and their followers most lazy enough to be satisfied by them.

[arjun]

Hindus believe that we are all Amrutasya Putras. Blissful Immortal souls.

Then why do lakhs and crores of Hindus throng to river banks all over India to bathe in the water of rivers when they know that it is only their body which is going to be purified. Is it not blindfaith?

Yogis use parakaya pravesa for some special purposes. Even if we do not believe it we are safe as our religion is not dependent on paraskaya praveshis!

Some spirits and devils etc keep troubling people. Some may give oracles for a short time under the influence of some village gods. Such things do not happen for sattvic gods. There is no need to permanent entering stuff!

Now that your lie has been nailed, you are looking for excuses.

One guy is walking around calling himself the permanent vehicle of the God! Poor god. He has to manage the world sitting in a stinking human body!

We never said that He permanently stays in that body. He can enter and depart from that body whenever He wishes.

God has no such need to enter anyone. He can will and he can get his message across.

How? Except for the Gods mentioned in mythological stories (which have not historical proofs) can you tell me how God has given His message directly? Now don't speak about the saints and sages that we have already discussed. They are all human beings. Not God.

Best wishes to wash off your sin and become a 'deity'!

While we bathe in the river of knowledge, you are free to bathe your body in so-called holy waters and watch millions others washing their bodies.

Thanks,
Arjun

[satyaprakash]

The BKs only present a child's comic book version of his life and no intelligent discussion at all.

we know the BKs are also hiding facts

You are hung up with anti BK tirade at every opportunity. Are not bk and pbk the two sides of the same invalid coin?
Even the most violent Islamic terrorist is sincere with his friends. He will even help some one close to him. Similarly some from bk or pbk may be good people except when it comes to their attitude of 'others.' Does it mean that their concepts and beliefs are correct?
Do you think that pbk have any intelligent discussions?

can you tell me how God has given His message directly?

You did not want to answer but now your are questioning!
The god of yours seem to know only one way.
Enter the stinking body of a human.
Make him give speeches.
Record it on cds.
Shut up girls and women in ghettos.
Make them listen to the garbage repeatedly. Still they understand nothing as no meaningful or consistent thing is there in that speech.
Make them imagine that some thing great was talked about.
God knows no other way. He is a bigger idiot than all the PBKs put together. Wonderful indeed is your logic!
Too much sin makes you dull. Anyhow please wash your sins first. Then your brain may start working. At that time any question or answer will have meaning.
Take my message. You will not get this opportunity again. Not many will come forward and tell you the truth. Realise your folly before it is too late. Be thankful to me. I am a friend in need. And this is the only truth. Not the false junk that is thrown at you all the time by your 'god entered' guy.
I will not repeat my message. Take it or leave it. Or take it later when you know more! Now be at peace! I do not expect any reply and you have to only answer yourselves.
Satya.

[fluffy bunny]

You are hung up with anti BK tirade at every opportunity. Are not BK and PBK the two sides of the same invalid coin?

Basically, my position is this ...

I have had no direct experience of the AIVV/PBK and so cannot speak of it in the same way I can the BKWSU/BKs. I know nothing of the impact they have had on families or individuals. Yes, I regard both as part of the same movement. On one level, PBKs from Virendra Dev Dixit down seem to be ex-BKs who have seen or experienced the abuse, corruption and the illogical nature of the BKWSU and left it, and yet are unwilling to give up the faith entirely and have re-invented it for themselves.

However, issues of faith in individuals are not logical and so I tend to regard all religions at the same. *If* someone adheres to a set of beliefs, does not abuse or interfere with others, and it makes them a better person and the world a better place, it does not bother me. I have to allow them that freedom whether they be Jews, Christians, believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or PBKs.

I believe in the values of truth, morals, ethics etc but I don't believe we need a super-natural being to carry them out. Invariably, as with the BKs, representatives of super-natural beings tend to be repressive, controlling and obstacles to progress and development. They live off their followers whilst holding them back.

In generally, I support the idea of ashrams or retreats where people can leave families and society to rest and sort themselves out. Many people use the BKWSU for that too, they join and then they leave. It's a good thing to leave religions once you have outgrown them. It's a bad thing for sects to stop people leaving and fill their minds with superstitions about what will happen if they do.

I think the PBKs are good for the BKs. They basically only target BKs, and not the general public and so anyone entering the PBKs has already committed to that worldview. I think the PBKs try to live true to their religion and so even if I don't believe in what they teach, I respect that much of them where the BKs are not. I've also heard that Virendra Dev Dixit encourages people to think, do research and question what he teaches.

And, ultimately, if there are two parties and one is abusing the other wrongly, it is my tendency to support the underdog. So if the BKs are abusing non-BKs, I will step in to support them. If the BKs are abusing the PBKs, I will step in to support the PBKs.

[mbbhat]

na mE viduHu suragaNaaH prabhavam na maharShayaH
ahamaadirhi dEvaanaam maharSheeNaa0 cha sarvashaH -(10-2)-- of Bhagavadgita

="Even deities, and great saints do not know my formation (= incarnation),.....

Then how can the present saints know incarnation of god of Gita? How can they claim that they know about god? So- does not this imply that- until god of Gita incarnate and gives his introduction, no one can know him?

[fluffy bunny]

I think when he uses the term "saint" he means it in an ordinary sense of an enlightened or elevated human being ... in comparison to the BKs claiming authority on the basis of having some spook or asura in them.

In the Gita it actually says, "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin or opulences, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and sages" meaning they could not fully understand and appreciate him because he was greater than him and their creator.

It does not mean they did not or could not know them.


I 'know' the Bank of India exists ... I have no idea how it really works nor what it takes to run it because I am not greater than it. Same applies.

These are just sticky plasters being applied to stop you and other BKs from having to think.

[mbbhat]

I am not going to think very deeply in such things. but that sloka has significant value here.

and the translation in many cases - would not be accurate even from books what you read or in the web sites.

good

[fluffy bunny]

and the translation in many cases - would not be accurate even from books what you read or in the web sites.

Well, let's not be ignorant, nor arrogant towards each other ... which translation or commentary on the Gita do you wish to use?

"Sura-gaṇāḥ" means the demigods or the inhabitants of the upper spiritual realms, beings of such long lives that single days are 100s of 1000s of our years. It has nothing to do with Brahma Kumari beliefs. Some translations or commentators would say "inhabitants of higher planets" believing them to be real in this actual universe, others believe them to be on other "spiritual plains".

The author is making the point if even the highest beings cannot understand the fullness of God, how on earth can petty human beings?

That is just good commonsense. What is the problem?

(Actually, I studied the Gita and parts of the Srimad Bhagavatam and Vedas before BKism and so they are not alien to me. If the god of the BKs exists, it is at best not a sura, or deva, but an asura (असुर).).

[mbbhat]

The author is making the point if even the highest beings cannot understand the fullness of God, how on earth can petty human beings?

That is just good commonsense. What is the problem?

Who is author here? Author of Gita or the topic starter satyaprakash?
--
I have no problem at all. I just mentioned the sloka that says- even marashis and suraganas do not know god.

Yes, then how can petty human beings (BKs?) know? Is this your question?
---
so- it implies no human beings can understand god with his own effort.

now- if we believe that it is Krishna who spoke so through arjun, then it would be wrong. I have already put lots of things about Gita in another topic. You may read there.

even this querry i will adrdess there.

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t= ... 259#p42259