Life stories

[Larena]

I'd like to ask people managing this forum if this place would be suitable to narrate one's life story spent among PBKs?

I spent over 2 years in a PBK center and app. 8 years as a student in PBK. What I saw in PBK centers and what I experienced as a PBK student dramatically destroyed my life, my family and any faith in God which I ever had in my heart. I followed directions given me by Baba completely blindly without a single doubt that what he orders is sacred.

Results are shocking for myself: almost deadly desease experienced during a stay in a PBK center due to carelessness of sisters -managers and Baba's orders, split in my family, loss of the job, loss of qualifications, loss of money, loss of health (due to serious overdose of medicines directed by Baba's doctor), loss of sense of life. One thing left a partucularly serious stigma in me - I witnessed how PBKs directed by Baba lied. They caused a death of a surrendered sister (a young, app. 18 year old girl from Calcutta area), because they treated her TB by fasting. When she died, the local doctor stating her death (a PBK brother, who also worked in an important Indian hospital), cried furiously at those sisters in the center, shouting at them and asking them how they would explain this to the girl's parents, how they would explain that they treated her serious deseas by fast and never took her to a hospital? That doctor expected the worst - police, trial... When the Father of that girl came to take part in a ceremony of burning the body, the official delegation from the center elected by Baba to meet that Father sworn that the dead girl received the best treatment from the best doctors and hospitals in India. Baba certified their words. I was present in those meetings and heard all those words. I was so shocked that I couldn't eat for few days. I was also scared. Four years passed and till today I cannot recover. I tried to go back to a normal life and work. I took part in a humanitary work, but I cannot revocer. Those people starved a surrendered girl who suffered from tuberculosis and hide everything. Then they called it "Shrimat", God's law.

[fluffy bunny]

I am very sorry to read of your experiences Larena. Yours is similar to many ex-BKs within the BKWSU and I am sad to read of the same things happening within the PBKs.

I promise you, you will recover and grow from this experience in time. Yes, it will take some time ... and the trick will be to let go of all that has hurt or confused you and regain a trust in yourself and your own feelings and intuitions.

You will pass through a "winter" phase where everything seems to be dead and it will feel as if it is going to last forever; then one day the signs of Spring will come again. Change always happens and Life must carry on. A "death" is a birth of something new ... as long as you let that which has to die, die.

You sound as if you have been traumatised and may be experiencing depression, which is very real and sometimes serious illness. It is not a weakness.


Are you Indian? Were you with the BKs beforehand? Are you back with your lokik family now or are you independent? I guess you have left the religion now?

There are some people that are anti-PBK here, I am not. I am neutral. I hope those other individuals treat you with sympathy. I cannot blame "all PBKs" for what has happened to you, responsibilities lie with the individuals involved ... *but* if Virendra Dev Dixit was one of them, and the story is as you tell it, then this is a very serious matter.

You have not asked for advice and so I am not giving it but I think if I was in your situation, I would go to the parents of the dead girl and clear my conscience. I know life in India for girls is not great and perhaps they don't care. I don't know the situation. But if they are good people and if they loved their daughter, I think I would want to face that.

TB can be cured by long-term treatment with antibiotics. After two weeks treatment the individual will no longer be able to spread the disease to others. However, to catch TB is not that easy. They say it takes contact with a carrier eight hours a day for six months, or 24 hours a day for two months working or living together to become infected. Poor nutrition would cause a immune systems and lead to a worsen state. Did she catch it at the PBK center? It could be very serious if someone is carrying the disease.

[arjun]

They caused a death of a surrendered Sister (a young, app. 18 year old girl from Calcutta area), because they treated her TB by fasting. When she died, the local doctor stating her death (a PBK Brother, who also worked in an important Indian hospital), cried furiously at those Sisters in the center, shouting at them and asking them how they would explain this to the girl's parents, how they would explain that they treated her serious deseas by fast and never took her to a hospital? That doctor expected the worst - police, trial...

Sister larena,
Om Shanti. I am sorry to learn about your experiences.
I am not aware of the above incident, but I can guess that the sister, like many other PBK sisters must have opted for naturopathy treatment (practiced even by Mahatma Gandhi) which involves fasting to some extent, but I don't think she must not have been fed with enough and nutritious food. I don't think there is any dearth of food in PBK centers. Many PBKs bring fruits and other food materials. Besides, the Yagya buys all the important things that are needed for a nutritious diet. The diet may be simple, unlike the BKs, but an effort is made to procure food grains or food material grown organically. When anyone or everyone coming to the PBK centers are given food free of cost and without any objection, then I see no reason why a surrendered sister should be starved to death.

As regards your loss of job or qualifications, I don't think you can blame Baba for that completely. In the beginning, as a PBK, you must have ignored your lokik life completely and became devoted to PBK life. See, this can happen with any religious organization, whether it is BK, PBK or non-BK. There are hundreds or thousands of people who leave their career and studies to pursue their spiritual or religious goals. Any loss of job or qualifications due to spiritual pursuit should not be attributed to a particular person or group. It is your choice. You could have paid more attention to lokik pursuits or maintained a balance between both. This is the reason, I advice all the newcomers to understand all the concepts, pros and cons completely before taking the plunge. This does not mean that you are completely responsible for whatever has happened in your life, but this also does not mean that a particular person or group is responsible for this situation.

I can tell you my own experiences. I have a good job and live with my family and many PBKs have been asking me since many years to leave the job and family to lead the life of a surrendered PBK. But I have consciously decided to continue working for some more years until I am financially independent to serve full time as a PBK. But Baba Virendra Dev Dixit has never asked me to leave my job or never sought any monetary or other help during my more than 15 years as a PBK.

OGS,
Arjun

[Larena]

I am not Indian. I come from CE Europe. I used to be a BK before becoming a PBK. My experience with BKs were bitter. They caused many problems in my life. They tried to defame me even in front of my husband. When I came to PBKs I thought that I really found God. I was ready to do everything exactly what God said. He – Baba in PBKs – speaks in a specific way. Of course, he doesn’t force to do anything but he shows certain choices, decisions in such a way that someone who wouldn’t do what he says may feel that he is worse. I felt like this. I can’t describe all cases, but I can give you examples. For example eating food prepared by someone else or touching each other or woman working in the world. He taught that we shouldn’t eat food prepared by someone else or we shouldn’t hug each other or that a woman shouldn’t work, the work is a slavery. He taught these things in such a way using such words that I had feeling that if I let my husband touch me or if I continue to work or if I eat food prepared by my husband I will become inferior, bad, sinful. I wanted to follow all directions. So these and other directions were sacred for me. Of course these examples which I gave might sound silly to many people. But what I want to say is that all these small things make life, make a family. And if one day someone changes the rules of marriage like I did following God’s directions, he may expect the same from the partner. My husband suffered a lot when I didn’t let him even hug me. A hug – a simple expression of human cordiality!
Baba spoke very bad about working in laukik. His words were so sharp and full of disdain for the work in the world. After listening to him I couldn’t work normally any more. At work I felt like in a schizophrenic grip. So I decided to spend time in the center in India. I discovered there after some time that most of people living there were somehow incapable in life. Girls and women mostly hated studying, school and work and they repeated that Baba made them free from all that. They could spend days doing nothing sitting closed in the center. Lack of fresh air, lack of balanced physical effort, lack of proper intellectual effort, lack of greenery, lack of open space, lack of walks, lack of healthy discussion, small packed rooms, laces ----this was the reality I saw there and I don’t think it was the result of poverty. I saw many poor places. And to my great surprise I found there pretty many people showing symptoms of psychic unbalance or even psychic disease. For me pretty many was 5-7 in the center . They were only females. I wondered why this happened. Healthy happy girls or mothers suddenly become psychically unbalanced. Probably I’ll never forget faces of some of those girls – they came to me and begged me staring at me with mad eyes to open the main gate and let them go out. When the center managers considered them as too dangerous (I remember one or two of them tried to kill themselves), they kept them locked in small rooms. All these images come to me for years – sometimes I can’t sleep at night. Many girls and mothers in the center had TB. I remember app 10. TB there had many forms. In my opinion they were not properly isolated from the others. Once I was ordered to sleep with girls with TB in one room. I was appointed to guard them at night as girls cannot sleep alone.
I wished sincerely to follow all directions and live the life in the way Baba says and remain far from what he called inferior world, but I now I think I deceived myself. I always valued studying, reading, traveling. The honest everyday work was a great value for me. I denied and rejected all these things, because I understood from Baba’s teaching that they are bad. Unfortunately, I had nothing instead. I never experienced a healthy discussion in the center, a spirit of study and discovery. In fact, for me it was a replay of BK. I don’t think that so called discussions with Baba so widely propagated in PBKs are real discussions. I tried to discuss with Baba. In my opinion he doesn’t discuss. He repeats certain sentences and when he cannot find convincing arguments or proofs he uses special tricks. Many of ideas he taught simply didn’t come true. I presented some of them to him directly with hope that he would help me to understand. He didn’t. The only thing I heard was ‘Baba says so that’s why it’s true.’ The same as BKs.
Another thing that scared me was the way they teach girls how to give courses. I came to know that method. I wouldn’t call it neutral. Girls were taught to give the course in a special way in order to influence a listener in a certain way. They were strictly instructed which words and which point should me mentioned and which should be hidden. A listener can only listen to a certain part of Gyan – only about the Trimurti – then he is asked to sing the oath. Unless he sings he is not allowed to listen to more Gyan. Of course PBKs quote hundreds points from Murlis showing that this procedure is the law set in Murlis. I feel very bad about this procedure. When I came to India for the first time I faced the same – unless you sign the oath we won’t let you to listen to more Gyan. It was so bitter.
I wish I could meet the parents of that girl TB girl who was starved. I would have to go to India and look for him. Would anybody in the center give me his address? I don’t believe. Naturopathy is a method of healing. OK. But not in the case of TB. One brother – doctor in the center said it clearly when he came to that girl in the day of her death. Only she among dozens girls with TB wasn’t treated with antibiotics. She couldn’t decide herself to do it, because she was a surrendered girl and she did what they told her to do. Even if she chose naturopathy, why they deceived her parents? I can’t understand it. Years are passing and it’s still sitting in me like a heavy stone. I can’t forget those people telling lies to her Father that she received the best medicines from the best doctors and the best treatment. They even said “antibiotics”. What they said was directed by Baba. Years passed and those lies still sound in my ears, I can see myself sitting there in that meeting with the girl’s Father. I can see his face, his eyes full of tears and PBKs from the center sitting in front of him saying, ‘She was taken to the best hospitals, to the best doctors, she received the best medicines’. And I can see two doctors who advised in the center - one was responsible for naturopathy in the center, another one was responsible for allopathic therapies. Both equally scared.
I had a heavy form of TB in the center. I was treated with antibiotics. The doctor in the hospital gave me a certain dose, the doctor in the center doubled it. When I came to my country I came to know that the double dose wasn’t necessary and could destroy my liver for good. I have to hide the fact that I had TB. When I go for regular checking doctors ask about diseases in the past. If I revealed I had had TB, I would be stigmatized here.
Fluffy Bunny and Arjun, I understand what you want to say. Thank you for your words. Each of us has his or her own experience. After my experience as a PBK I lost faith in God. I decided to write it here not with the aim to receive words of sorry and compassion. I think that I am responsible for where I am and what I feel. My aim is to reveal what still lives in me and disturbs me. Maybe it will help someone. I introduced to Gyan some people; I lost contact with them. I came to know that they also suffered and had bitter experience in Gyan. I feel responsible for this somehow. Maybe they would read this text one day… Let’em accept my words ‘Sorry for the bad to the extent I caused it.’
Two years ago I wrote a book about my story in PBK. I published it in my native language. People can read it in the Internet. I did a lot to go back to so called normal simple life – to find a job, to rebuild in my life the value of the work, study and simple human relationships with people around me. Besides of my sincere efforts, I bear in the heart a great burden which doesn’t let me experience peace.

[fluffy bunny]

It's amazing that they did not just tell the parents whilst she was still alive and sick and allow them to help or having some influence.

I can only imagine how terrible it feels to have witnessed and been part of something like that ... it is a "manslaughter" (manslaughter is a murder but has a lack of any intention to kill, in this case through neglect or incompetence).

In the BKs, I saw many people driven to destroy their lives and suffer from it but never anyone as bad as the girls you describe. I am sure it happens in the BKs but it is all very well hidden, especially from brothers, and the BKs offer more "fringe benefits" like retreats in nice, big buildings.

You described a perfect 'ticking timebomb' for TB infection. It seems the PBK doctors are compromised by their faith in Virendra Dev Dixit.

Thank you for taking time to speak out and write in English.

I appreciate you cannot go back to India but it would be a good test of the PBKs' sincerity to ask one to tell you where the family is. Perhaps you know already that they would not.

Arjun, it is cases like this that suggest the PBKs need an independent assessor just like the BKs with the power to check facts and investigate abuses.

Let's presume it is true. It seems very possible and reasonable to me, the way Larena writes comes across as very sincere. Would they just cover it up to protect themselves against being sued or losing their status and reputation?

• Perhaps you can investigate this case?

I agree, Larena, that the signing of contracts is a bit strange and coercive. I think it has to be done in order to prepare an attack against or discredit any accuser. Why they do so, I do not know. Perhaps you can tell us what you think?

I think it is good to listen to you feelings and take a break from gods and religion to rediscover how much of good and life carries on without any interference from them. It is amazing but most of life ... or even all ... does perfect well without any god. Leave the gods to run their own businesses and get on with your own life.

I am very concerned by the unhealthy lifestyle you describe for the women and, especially, the lack of mental development and welfare. I am also interested in reading of your BK experiences.

[Larena]

Dear Fluffy Bunny

That girl was dying for months and her critical condition remained hidden from her laukik family. Only when she died – I witnessed her agony – they informed her family that her life was over. Her Father was shocked, he couldn’t believe and understand why nobody had written or called them with the information that the girl was seriously ill. Those from the center built a story to explain to him why. They said according to Baba’s directions that her condition was stable, she was ill but not seriously and suddenly a soul, an evil soul entered her and made her condition so bad. It wasn’t true – I saw the girl two months before her death. She looked like a skeleton and was almost unconscious. She couldn’t stand on her feet. They ‘carried’ her in a wheelchair.
If I insisted that I must find her parents I could do it but I would have to invest money which I don’t have too much. I know the crematory place where her body was burnt. I presume that they keep some sort of data about those who were burnt.
Probably many PBKs would tell you that women in the Yagya are perfectly looked after. Of course, each of them has a place to sleep, receives food, has a roof over her head, has water to wash herself. Yes, this is true. There are many new centers, much bigger than the old ones. Even the Old House in Kampil – the heart of PBKs - was destroyed and replaced by a new big building. They receive good food and clothes. When I stayed in the center I received good food and clothes. But there is also that other side – locked doors, packed rooms, curtained windows and all pieces of space which could allow you look around. The main topic which I repeatedly heard among girls and mother was household work – cooking and washing.
I tried to understand why they ask people to sing contracts without giving them full Gyan or access to knowledge. PBKs and Baba himself say that this is the law from the Murlis. Often they give an example of any university where a student has to pass through years of study and cannot just jump from the first year to the last. Do you see how tricky this argument is? Of course it sounds perfect to those who never studied at university. You know that at any university a student can independently chose subjects and “construct” his or her own programs. On one side PBK say that they give Gyan for free, on the other side they demand contracts. Today I think that contract was the highest price I paid in my life so far. I don’t know to what extent PBKs or Baba want to exert influence consciously by demanding contracts. Could it be a form of manipulation? I’ll tell you what I experienced when I singed it and it may be the best explanation how the contract works in some cases.
First I came to a PBK family in England. Someone from the PBK site directed me to them, in order to receive Gyan. I came to visit them in London. For me it was quite a long trip, not cheap. I came to their house. They knew the time I was to come. The mother of the family responsible for giving courses made me wait one day before she introduced me to the Trimurti. I had to wait so long, because two other new students were to come and she wanted to give a group lesson. After the Trimurti class she gave a letter of faith to me and two other students and asked us to read and signed it. The oaths we sing in the letter is very serious – we swear in that letter that we would live in purity, follow Shrimat and that we accept Baba Virendra Dixit and Kamla Dixit as ShivBaba and Jagadamba. In that moment I felt that someone had caught me in a cage or blocked me. That mother told me that if I wouldn’t sing she will not narrate Gyan to me and I will have to leave the room where she was giving the class. I felt my throat becoming dry and my stomach shrinking. The pulse arose. I started calculating in my head possible consequences of signing the contract. I wanted to listen to Gyan very much but at the same time I feared that someone used means of unfair manipulation. I refused to sing. I told her that I found it unfair - how could I make an oath without listening to the complete course? My mind was so disturbed that I couldn’t even breath properly. Even now, when I am writing these words, the same feelings and experiences are coming. After hours of an internal battle of fear, desire to know, readiness for taking a risk, willingness to grow spiritually I signed the oath and the mother let me to listen to the course. After receiving the course in London I came to India. I came to do batthi, receive the proper course and meet Baba. The same procedure but in a slightly worse version repeated. I had a feeling that all those people didn’t give me full information, that they hide some facts, that something was inconsistent. Information about Jagadamba were totally chaotic for me but they demanded singing a separate letter declaring that she is my Mother despite the fact she left the Yagya. I was confused and openly said it. They couldn't explain things clearly. Again my desire to know and desire to meet God overwhelmed fears and suspicions. Once I signed the letter in London, I felt like being enchained – I felt forced to do the next step. You see, I came to London from far. I invested time, energy, power of mind and body, money. So I wanted to make the best of them. When I came to India, the investment was triple or even bigger. So, the principle of being consequent played a perfect role in both cases. I let people entrap me but I explained it to myself as God’s making me free and choosing me from among millions. The principle of consequence and the principle of making sense of unreasonable decisions, the principle of hardly available goods – a human being like me at that time was so easy to exert influence on. Do you understand my point here? I was not allowed to listen to everything, think, breathe and comfortably make a decision. No, I had limited time to decide, if I didn’t my investment would be lost. I wouldn’t be allowed to meet God. When I decided once to sign, what did I do later? I justified this rationale of my decision. For years. When I signed the oath, the act of signing made me see God. This is how it worked in my case. One day the vessel became overfilled - the trigger was pulled by bitter and bitterer experiences and things I saw and experienced.
You ask me about BKs experience. They tried to control me a lot. When I wanted more Gyan they forbid me to take Murli to study at home or to copy them. When I found PBK site I told them what I knew from there. They chucked me out from the center when I came and asked what PBK was, who Virendra Dixit was and how they came to a split. Then, they met my husband in secret and tried to convince him that I was insane. The same information the spread among few of my acquaintances and colleagues.

[fluffy bunny]

You cannot meet Virendra Dev Dixit without signing an oath in advance !?!

The story of the girl's death, and the TB infections in the centers, is very concerning.

What do you think Arjun, is it something you and some other PBKs could look into?

[arjun]

Arjun, it is cases like this that suggest the PBKs need an independent assessor just like the BKs with the power to check facts and investigate abuses.

I have conveyed the story narrated by sister Larena to AIVV through email in the form of a link to this thread. I came to know from someone that this case of TB was indeed dealt with by a Naturopath (a PBK). I don't know how far Baba Virendra Dev Dixit was kept informed about the case as he keeps on touring various mini-Madhubans and gitapathshalas all over India. I feel that the case should have been transferred to an allopathic doctor or government hospital before it became serious.

As regards the living conditions of sisters and mothers in mini-Madhubans, I am aware that there is a constraint of space. As and when new mini-Madhubans are opened, sisters are transferred to the new ones so that they get more space. But as regards food, I am aware and I enquired once again from a responsible PBK and found out that everyone is given a healthy diet, which includes a fruit, a glass of milk and a glass of buttermilk/yoghurt everyday besides two full meals and a breakfast consisting of healthy non-oily food. And this is given to all the surrendered sisters and mothers and to the brothers living in mini-Madhubans on a full time basis. And by Indian standards, this diet is better than that available for many households. You must appreciate the fact that unlike BKs who directly or indirectly seek money from BKs, non-BKs and even surrendered BKs, money is never sought from PBKs. Any sister or mother who wishes to dedicate her life to Godly service is provided all the basic requirements, like food, clothing, bedding, etc. free of cost. The outbreak of TB at some centers must have been due to lack of space and mingling of TB patients with healthy ones. However, I would request Baba Virendra Dev Dixit and other senior sisters to try to improve the living conditions for the inmates of the mini-Madhubans.

As regards sister Larena, I know her personally and I also came to know some facts about her departure from AIVV but I would not like to discuss such matters in public. But I am sad to know that the person who is accusing AIVV of lies is perhaps lying to the members of this forum by changing identities on this forum from time to time. I feel that sister larena and sister anu are one and the same. She might be doing this out of fear. But I don't think there is any reason for fear. She wants to reveal all the things negative about AIVV, but perhaps she doesn't want any of her negative aspects to come out in public. And I would not like to do that personally. She has criticized the discussions that take place between Baba Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs, but she should appreciate the fact that whenever any PBK brings up any personal issue about himself or others in a gathering, he politely refuses to discuss such matters in public and asks them to discuss such topics in person or through email or phone. However, she is free to write whatever she wants to write about AIVV without any fear. As you have said it is a test of sincerity for AIVV and PBKs.

On Godly service,
Arjun

OGS,
Arjun

[Larena]

I don't understand much of what Arjun presumes.

The last trauma I experienced among PBKs happened 2008/2009. That girl died in 2008 in summer. 2008/9 I suffered from TB. 2009 and 2010 I suffered from effects of TB treatment - 15 kg loss of weight, overdosage of antibiotics, depression, physical weakness.

I left AIVV definetely in June 2010 and since then I stay far from everything connected with them and BKs. I embarked on a journey and work with hope that new experience would help me shed the old. Old dark images again and again come, like voices crying for help. That's all.

Did something like Arjun does happen in this forum earlier?

[arjun]

You left AIVV in June, 2010 and Anu joined this forum exactly in June, 2010.

[Larena]

??? Strange.

I don't understand it. And I feel you are attacking me for your personal reasons.

When I left AIVV I travelled in such places in the world where people don't know what a computer is.

Reconsider what you wrote.

At the same time I'd like to ask managers of the forum - is it the practice of the forum that PBKs attact those who write in the section for Ex-PBK only describing here important painful for them experience?

[arjun]

Sister larena,
I am not attacking you at all. I have just expressed my apprehensions. And the apprehensions may be true to a great extent because there are just a handful of double foreigners among the PBKs and only one or two of them know Hindi. And there was only one double foreigner PBK mother who knew Hindi very well (to read, write and translate) and has left AIVV at the same time that you mentioned. And I have also confirmed from sources the name of the double foreigner PBK mother who was in AIVV at the time of the death of the sister due to TB. And AIVV had long ago confirmed that the member who was writing as anu was the same double foreigner PBK mother who is now being described as a witness to the death of the above mentioned TB patient.

And sister, why would I like to attack you when I have already stated that you can write whatever you wish? I have already expressed my sympathies with you and I have assured that I will request Baba Virendra Dev Dixit to take steps that would ensure that no such incident is repeated in future.

OGS,
Arjun

[fluffy bunny]

I will request Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit to take steps that would ensure that no such incident is repeated in future.

Although I appreciate your position, and it is not for you to do, if someone has died because of malpractice or negligence, and the next of kin have been lied to, then it needs addressing in the past ... not just to ensure it is not repeated in the future.

But then I guess life is cheap in India, especially for young girls which one can buy for a handful of dollars.

I know nothing of the past discussion and it does not matter to me either way. Either the statements happened or did not, it does not matter who says them.

[Larena]

And AIVV had long ago confirmed that the member who was writing as anu was the same double foreigner PBK mother who is now being described as a witness to the death of the above mentioned TB patient.

I cannot confirm this. Your statement is terrible for me.

Please contact the person you wrote about and come back to me with explanation.

I am not your sister. Don't call me names please. Since I left AIVV I don't let anyone to call me like this.

I knew a few people (whom you called double foreigners) from abroad who were PBKs and knew Hindi well. I know Hindi as well as seven other languages. This is nothing unique. I confirm that I was cabaple to translate from Hindi.

I wrote about dramatically bitter experience when I was close to so called God - the experience which destroyed my faith in God. I received directions from God which destroyed my health for ever in this life. I also witnessed directions of God which caused death and tragedy of some people. Because the face of dying sister M. and tears of her Father deceived by God and faces of those girls who tried to kill themselves in PBK centers come in front of me for all these years I put the matter here in public - after one of those whom I introduced in Gyan showed me this forum.

I don't confirm any of your assumptions. You accuse me of somethings - dishonesty which you and your brothers and sisters bear as burden inyour hearts. I don't want to be a part of your story.

[Larena]

You cannot meet Veerendra Dev Dixit without signing an oath in advance !?!

No, you cannot. You have to sing in advance after listening to one of 5 classes - the class of Trimurti. And you have to decide - yes or not. If you say not nobody will give you any other explanation and Gyan. Only Trimurti.