Significance of celibacy?

[satyaprakash]

Is this the kind of joy that satya wants to enjoy at the cost of others? At least God doesn't teach us to enjoy at the cost of others.

Joy is of one kind- not this kind or that kind. God the real one teaches everything to everyone. Only the ignorant and deluded people take the distorted meaning of the simple truths. If Arjun is enjoying whether at his own cost or at some other cost, the fact of enjoyment is important. This may sound strange to persons exposed to narrow cult thinking and they will find it difficult to grasp. No harm. When you have gone through your cult churning and come out empty, you will understand the other truths.

God is trying to make us achieve the same (or greater) pleasure (joy) through RajYoga which body conscious human beings try to achieve through sex for a moment accompanied by discharge of energy.

It is not the same. I have only pointed out that sex gives joy and that joy is not sin and need not be confused with discharge etc. I have also pointed out that if joy is obtained without involving the sense objects, then it is long lasting. It is easy to talk about such joys of direct silencing of mind, but extremely difficult to get in practice. Just by repeating soul conscious or abstaining from sex, no silencing will occur. If pbk thinks that they have special ticket for such joys, it is their imagination and this is exploited by baba Virendra Dev Dixit.
Satya

[satyaprakash]

"Incomprehensible" means ... not able to be understood - unintelligible - impenetrable.
Please stop. It is not fair for others and all it does is destroy the value of the topics you post in.

Long posts from Parikshit makes one lose the continuity of discussion. It is better if the posts from Parikshit are kept short and to the point.
I really have difficulty in understanding most of Parikshit's writings. Yes- one or two sentences make some meaning. I hope only those sentences are written.
Regards,
Satya

[fluffy bunny]

It would be better if Parikshit was just banned if he does not stop. Ultimately, he is here to promote Hare Krishna-style Vaishnavitism (ISKCON). Another cult in essence.

What he needs to do is ask for help and speak honestly of his experience ... not play at being a guru. He is the product of a BK mother.

I agree his long posts just destroy discussion and that his English is so terrible that it is impossible to understand.

Non-native English speakers should NOT try and understand or follow him.

Joy is of one kind- not this kind or that kind ... I have only pointed out that sex gives joy and that joy is not sin and need not be confused with discharge etc. I have also pointed out that if joy is obtained without involving the sense objects, then it is long lasting ...

I just want to say that although I am not a PBK, and am fiercely critical of the BKWSU and do not promote them, your statements above are not true.

Earlier you were equating "joy" with the pleasure of thieves and rapists which was even more ridiculous. Rationalism taken to an extreme absurd. I've experienced sex, I've experienced the "highs" from doing the BK meditation/lifestyle and they are of an entirely different order. I've also experienced the differences or "pleasures" between living a sexual life and living a disciplined, celibate life and again they are of an entirely different order.

For me, your comments scream out like someone that is or was unable to experience a meditative state and is locked in their mind.

There is truth to the great difference between experienced derived from without, through material objects and physical stimulation, and experiences derived from within. The former most certainly decline, especially through over use or abuse; the latter is at least stable. There is value to the traditional or Buddhistic view that all external experiences come hand in hand with irritations or sufferings small or great.

Next you will be telling us that the feelings that meditation produce are no different from being drunks or something ... again, I can tell you they very much are!

You upset me very much with your comment on rape. It is an act of extreme violence and animalistic rage not pleasure and I thought very insensitive. I've not experienced it, thank God, but I have experienced violence or angry urges and, again, they are clearly of an entirely different and extremely imbalanced order that flare and then die down giving one reason to regret, perhaps for years after.

Logically, you are suggesting that there is no difference in pleasure between an infant banging on a toy drum and an orchestra coming together to play the finest classical music. Again, you would be wrong and I am absolutely sure even science would back that statement up.

Reductively, you are saying there is no benefit at all to refinement and suggesting we all may as well be primitive or animalistic for its gives us the same reward or experience. Again, I would disagree.

No, even I accept that there is benefit to refining one's life and working towards a refined life which is not dependent on external props. Whether BK or PBK is that ... or whether it is a refinement that is then distorted at the top is another more valid question in my mind, e.g. does it use the 90% benefits of refinement to then corrupt and mislead in the last 10%?

But to attempt to use logic such as you have done will fail because most of the adherents will know ... from direct experience not being told ... that it is not true and reject it as being too unsubtle.

It is also plainly obvious that giving up sexual discharge *does* increase physical and mental "energy levels". Even the most animalistic athletes like boxers and football players have found this and are discouraged from such contact before big sports games. Again, it is my experience too. It is a good discipline to take control of the focus of the mind, an ability which can then be used for others things.

What might be a more valid discussion would be the whole question of Hindu sexuality, e.g. the difference between celibacy and suppression and whether true celibacy should or can be experience without sexual experience and fulfilment beforehand. To me it seems a big mess that needs sorting out.

[satyaprakash]

Next you will be telling us that the feelings that meditation produce are no different from being drunks or something

Logically, you are suggesting that there is no difference in pleasure between an infant banging on a toy drum and an orchestra

Reductively, you are saying there is no benefit at all to refinement and suggesting

Fluffy,
you are making many statements and say that I may tell like that! No.

Joy has some aspects:
1. Quality- passing, subtle, deep, mixed with agitation, violence prone etc.
2. Length- short or passing or long or permanent
3. Quantity- are you completely knocked off, deep feeling of just a glimpse etc.

I am trying to point out that the underlying joy in all the above (example cited) is obtained by touching the divine- call it consciousness, God or something like that. The violent rapist also touches the same joy even if he is not aware of it. Otherwise he will not rape for joy at all! But surely his joy will suffer in all above aspects. For all his efforts, the returns are very poor! In a more simple words, I call the touching the divine as silencing the mind- this is supported in several Upanisadic scriptures.(these cannot be quoted here as the PBKs are not interested in any outside knowledge and as I do not want to start any new preaching here- I only want the cult based fooling to stop)

I started with pointing out the ridiculous teaching of celibacy for all- looking at sex as sin- every married man or women is a sinner- every child is a product of sin, including Virendra Dev Dixit?- going to the extend of suggesting cutting off the penis etc. I want to say that this type of propaganda looks attractive from the point of view of a lay man but is never practical. In turn they (bk/pbk) condemn all those who disagree to death and exile from Golden Age and stay in some remote hell for the next 2500 or 5000 years!

In their advt campaign, they start equating themselves to holy saints of the past who had lived noble lives. What we see is only small cramped rooms holding dozens of girls as trophies they have won for their Virendra Dev Dixit baba and as a proof that so many people believe in the wild stories of their cult.

Satya.

[T.K]

It is also plainly obvious that giving up sexual discharge *does* increase physical and mental "energy levels". Even the most animalistic athletes like boxers and football players have found this and are discouraged from such contact before big sports games.

It appears that medical research may have a slightly different interpretation, although the research may not be extensive.
Sex consumes about 25 to 50 calories, and even less in athletes - too little to drain a trained athlete for too long.
This part has been tested. So impact on physical energy is negligible.

Immediate effect of sex is reduction in testosterone - which people believe can reduce aggression and hence prove detrimental in sports that requires athletes to be aggressive. Hence some coaches are against it. On the other hand, reduced testosterone relaxes a person and hence some believe it could help athletes perform better.
These psychological aspects have not been extensively researched, though.

However, it is true that about 3 months of abstinence can lead to much much lower levels of testosterone - and perhaps that helps "quiet" the mind .

It is unmistakable that many different philosophies insist on celibacy for those whose sole aim is to seek God. However most of them permit sex for married, monogamous couples (who don't overdo it, don't commit a crime, etc., etc.) - even if to only procreate.
Of course BK/PBKs take an extreme view.
I also believe medical science does not yet fully understand the human body. So the claims of reduced "energy levels" may yet be true.
Hence I cannot help believe there is something to celibacy. And I would like to understand why.
Since two groups claim God insists on celibacy being the 1st tenet, I wish God would quickly, without spending too much time on it if he so prefers, in a few sentences tell the children what happens physiologically and put the matter to rest.

Desire for sex is a biological urge. Suppressing it is not going to be easy and perhaps not even wise.
So it appears that if you are going to be celibate, you better find an "outlet", and so far the claim appears to be: meditation (hatha-Yoga/Raj Yoga) is that outlet.

T.K

[arjun]

Earlier you were equating "joy" with the pleasure of thieves and rapists which was even more ridiculous. Rationalism taken to an extreme absurd.

Such equations by satyaprakash are like giving legal status to Taliban. Tomorrow he will say that killing of thousands of people by destroying the World Trade Center was a joy for Taliban. I think he is a frustrated man who could neither enjoy physical nor spiritual joy and is now deriving sadistic pleasure by constantly defaming the BKs and PBKs. Let him do so. One day he will realize his folly. But it would be too late.

I started with pointing out the ridiculous teaching of celibacy for all- looking at sex as sin- every married man or women is a sinner- every child is a product of sin, including Veerendra Dev Dixit?- going to the extend of suggesting cutting off the penis etc.

This is your sheer imagination.

[fluffy bunny]

Surely sex as sin is a Catholic invention and not a Hindu one? I think India as a whole is a bit of a special case when it comes to sex and, especially in the rural areas, using celibacy as a device is the far safer option. I know that a lot of India has modernized but, a bit like Arab nations, it strikes me as having some serious problems in the area which are probably nest avoid simply because they would just bring up too many other issues.

Remember when that woman made a film about how widows were dumped in Benares and then young ones used as prostitutes for even high caste Brahmins ... all based on facts ... the mob reacted by burning down the studio, media suppressed it and politician condemned it.

But I agree that it should be discussed more and thought about.

It appears that medical research may have a slightly different interpretation

Have you ever had sex? Lots of sex even? One does not need medical research to know what happens afterward it. Trust me, I have extensive experience in the field.

In addition to which, your analysis is extremely unscientific because it does not include all the other efforts that are required before actually having the opportunity to mate. Your calorie estimate may be correct for a typical 30 second to 2 minute "roll on-roll off" effort ... but other people put a little more effort into it.

It also has an addictive/habitual aspect that goes beyond calories and can be understood chemically or spiritually (sanskars) which causes extreme mental distractions and shapes one's life around it. I have seen this with individuals I would say were clearly sexual addicts.

To reduce it merely to the amount of calories "something" burns is ridiculous ... I am warning you because I think you destroy the effect of your own argument when you do so.

Desire for sex is a biological urge. Suppressing it is not going to be easy and perhaps not even wise.

In my experience, just as all the classic sources suggest, there is suppression, and I agree that might not be good, but there is also a natural rising above it which does not include suppression. I'd call the later true celibacy.

Just what proportion of BKs/PBKs/spiritualists are in denial/suppression and what proportion are truly celibate, I don't know.

I also think the "not wise to suppress" is a bit of a modern myth established on the basis of the extremely dubious work of Alfred Kinsey and the Kinsey Institute, a hot bed of perverts if there ever was one.

[T.K]

.. Trust me, I have extensive experience in the field.

..It also has an addictive/habitual aspect that goes beyond calories and can be understood chemically or spiritually (sanskars) which causes extreme mental distractions and shapes one's life around it. I have seen this with individuals I would say were clearly sexual addicts.

... I am warning you because I think you destroy the effect of your own argument when you do so.

I respect your experiences and observations. But I would be reluctant to base a theory on just your experiences and observations, or for that matter my own. Hence I turned to more "scientific" studies, although I realize even they may be inaccurate, and acknowledged as much in the post.
You cited why athletes may refrain from sex. I simply added what studies say, although I cannot claim I have read all literature on the topic.

Most things done in excess are harmful. We all universally know exercise is good for health. But do it for 8 hours and day every single day of the week, it will have an exactly opposite effect. I would imagine this applies to sex, too, perhaps more so.

In all my posts I make it clear that I am talking about committed couples who may desire to indulge in non-crimial, monogamous and occassional sex, and possibly even to only procreate.
I suspect this is also one of the strands in Satya's arguments (this does not mean I agree, endorse, oppose, disagree or have any other opinion about with what he says).

T.K

[fluffy bunny]

There are lots of fair questions or issues to raise about celibacy within the BKWSU/AIVV without assuming the possibility of any "Godly" benefits. One can instantly appreciate the amount of free time and energy (activity) it released for the individual.

Most human beings are not like street dogs. It take an immense amount of effort to find, engage and sustain a relationship that might include the couple of minutes of "pleasurable" sex. Then add the time, effort and expense bringing up children (and of the parents to provide a dowry).

How much might we agree upon that being? 60 to 95% of one's existence? Instantly one can see why the form was adopted. Remove sex and relationships and one increase the amount of available time, money and resources by twice or ten times. This can then be reaped from the individual to be spent by the cult.

A perfect example of this is the Texan BK leader Dr Hansa Raval who left her infant child with her husband to commit herself and resources to the sect. There is no way she could have become a center-in-charge, and risen the ranks, if she had been looking after a child and with a husband.

I imagine if the BKWSU was to allow sex for the purpose of procreation only, instantly they would increase their appeal to the public many times over. I feel it is one of those situations where it is hard for us to know what it is all about because we don't know enough about the beginning of the religion how, when and why it was introduced. Much of the religion's early development appears to have arisen as a defensive reaction against its community's negative response to it. Lekhraj Kirpalani was criticized for being too close and touchie-feelie with the young girls. Was it to copy the Sanyasis to assert their religiousness ... or was merely it to avoid such criticism of the Mandli being his harem?

We also have instances like that of its leader Dadi Janki, whose family were in the Om Mandli but allowed or encouraged her to go off, marry and have a child. DId the Mandli have more liberal sentiments in the beginning?

Areas where we might be concerned are of the encouragements or disencouragement given to young adolescents growing up in the religion and the young surrender sisters who are, essentially, kept as slaves (unpaid workers with no freedom) with no way out of the BKWSU.

[satyaprakash]

One can instantly appreciate the amount of free time and energy (activity) it released for the individual.

How much might we agree upon that being? 60 to 95% of one's existence? Instantly one can see why the form was adopted. Remove sex and relationships and one increase the amount of available time, money and resources by twice or ten times.

The desire for sex, family, children, name, fame, materials for enjoyment, house, food etc is overall termed as 'samsara' in literature. (I mean Hindu scriptures as BK or PBK have nothing other than their Murlis modified or not). Sex desire is the most powerful of them because it gives guaranteed joy even if for a short time! It may produce a little tiredness after the sex act but people do not mind it as it had already given them a great relief from their intense longing for it. It is said that it is extremely difficult to escape from sansara or samsara. Many methods like Bhakti, Karmas, Meditation and mind control or various types of Yoga are prescribed for it. You are repeatedly warned that it is a long and slow process to get out of samsara. Any one claiming a seven day wonder is pulling a big one.
Only the very evolved souls can attempt at sex sublimation and progress as a saint. For most others gentler methods are prescribed and marriage is allowed and encouraged at an early age. This channelises the sex energy and you mind is free from constant sexual craving , as you are assured of sexual satisfaction at home after marriage.
If half wits thinking that they are very evolved souls, try sex control, it becomes suppression and they live in misery for their whole lifetime, blaming other normal people!
The bk/pbk cult turns this natural law on its head and claims every one joining it becomes a saint like person ( extreme example= baap samaan baba!) just after 7 days of gulping down the stuff they throw at you! This is the simple and true analysis.
The failure of this idea of bk shows in their face which has no happiness and is tinged in sadness, For proof go to any of their centres (bk or pbk) and look at their face. You will not ask for anything more!

Satya.

[satyaprakash]

Such equations by satyaprakash are like giving legal status to Taliban. Tomorrow he will say that killing of thousands of people by destroying the World Trade Center was a joy for Taliban.

Arjun,
As you are not a frustrated person and is always engulfed in the bliss of God as described by your baba Virendra Dev Dixit, you should try to understand what I am saying.
Joys can be harmless or sinful or violent of hurting or a combination of all these. But if there is a joy component then it is divine in nature and comes due to partly of fully silencing the mind. If the joy is out of hurt or violence, the enjoyer will face the consequence later. His mind may become more disturbed after the joy event as happens in all sinful joys. I am not going to that part of the drama. Sorry for using the word DRAMA as that was your trademark product!
Joy is joy and this has to be accepted even if it is sinful or not! Knowing the nature of joy this way by proper analysis, we can try to obtain lasting joys. Use of sex is incidental in all these. If someone can be blissful without sex, so be it. It requires great merits but is possible. But for most other don't impose such rules.
Satya.

[fluffy bunny]

Your being silly and insulting now ... and I think you're confusing a number of things here by misusing the word joy when you just mean experience, or perhaps just a chemical reaction. It is not a good approach to use.

It also strikes me you have never had a good yogic or meditative experience otherwise you would understand the difference between them and what sex does for one (to be honest, there is no guaranteed "joy" at the end of it).

Traditionally, don't some Hindu schools say that the tongue (taste) is the most voracious desire and hence the hardest to overcome? Hence the disciplines on eating.

Please stop for a moment and tell us why you are so upset and unhappy with the BKWSU/AIVV? Did you try it and experience nothing, or have you lost a family member to it? Or did you waste some years following it?

In real terms, it is such a small religion, and by no means the worst or most ridiculous in India, why bother so much about it?

[arjun]

The BK/PBK cult turns this natural law on its head and claims every one joining it becomes a saint like person ( extreme example= baap samaan Baba!) just after 7 days of gulping down the stuff they throw at you! This is the simple and true analysis.

This is another rumour which proves your half-baked knowledge. It is nowhere claimed either by the BKs or by the PBKs that a person becomes a saint like person after undergoing the 7 days course or bhatti. The seven days course is just the beginning of a long journey of making spiritual efforts to achieve the karmaateet stage. I am reproducing below a Murli point which disproves satyaprakash's statement.
“कोई तो दो-तीन मास में देही-अभिमानी बन जाते हैं, कोई फिर २५ वर्ष में भी नहीं बनते। एक ही कोर्स बहुत बड़ा है जो ५०-६० वर्ष चलता है। पढ़ाई के कोर्स और पढ़ाने वाले टीचर को न जाना तो पढ़ेगा क्या? इस बाबा को जानने से तो शिवबाबा को भी जानें, जिसके साथ बुद्धियोग लगाना है। हमें विश्व का मालिक बनना है सो कोई मनुष्य तो नहीं बनायेंगे। जब तक निश्चय नहीं हुआ है तब तक गोया कुछ भी नहीं समझा है। २०-२५ वर्ष वालों को भी पूरा निश्चय नहीं बैठा है। हिलते रहते हैं। अभी-अभी निश्चय, अभी-अभी संशय।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक ०४.०८.०८, पृ. ३)

“Some become soul conscious in two-three months; some then do not become (soul conscious) even in 25 years. Only one course is so big that it continues for 50-60 years. If someone does not come to know of the course of knowledge and the teacher who teaches then what will he study? By knowing this Baba one can know ShivBaba as well, with whom we have to connect our intellect. We have to become the master of the world; no human being will make us that. Until one has not developed faith, it is as if one has not understood anything. Even those who have completed 20-25 years have not developed complete faith. They keep shaking. Just now they develop faith and just now they lose faith.”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 04.08.08, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

[sita]

Dear satyaprakash,

You use the word “sin”. How do you define “sin”?

[arjun]

Thanks parixit Bhai, but I am just a drop when compared to the Ocean of knowledge ShivBaba.