Are BKs equal to Islam?

[mbbhat]

Some errors are there. If any pbk is interested, they can answer.

sreevani wrote:-

3)In Islam Half Moon is Praised.
We BKs also believe our Half Moon Brahmababa.

5)In Islam there is no idol worship.They believe incorporeal.
We BKs also believe incorporeal.

6)Islamis consider pakisthan as their religious land.
Our BK institution also started in karachi(pak).

3)Is it half moon or crescent moon? BKs believe that the moon is full from 1969 onwards.

5)BKs are never against idol worship, But Islam is. why? [BKs put pictures of deities, then?]

6)Pakistan or Mecca? In fact, Pakistan got created very late- 1947. but Islam had been much before.
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Also- According to PBKs, if BKs are equal to Islam, what fits for PBKs and how?

[fluffy bunny]

So- what? If changes happen, should the old only be considered?

I guess it is an old argument that was developed at the time when Aiden's suggestion was adopted.

I just wanted to emphasis that the idea for Traffic Control came from a Westerner ... arguably a Christian convert to BKism.

I am not a PBK and so do not defend them thoughtlessly. For me, as a Westerner, the BKWSU is more like the Vatican (rich, powerful, corrupt, contradictory to their religion) in comparison to the PBK's Protestant reform movement (purist, hardline, challenging, seeking greater depth and a return to the original values of the religion). The BKs are responding to the PBKs in a very similar manner to that which the Vatican responded to the early Protestant movement, i.e. attempting to suppress and destroy it, and they are likely to fail.

Does the suggestion that on a metaphoric level some elements of the BK movement lean towards Islamic tendencies and other lean towards Christian or Buddhist seem reasonable?

I think it does and perhaps it only seems harsh or insulting to a Hindu mindset? Perhaps it is being misused by some less evolved elements of the PBKs in that manner and that is what you are reacting against?

Whilst dressing itself in the language of Hinduism, BKism has certainly moved very far away from it and adopted concepts that are Islamic (or Christian), e.g. conversion, monotheism, imperialistic expansion, End Times (Destruction), exclusivity of divine right in comparison to Hinduism's pluralistic nature etc. It is reasonable to suggest that the BKs, evolving from a Sindhi community, picked up some Islamic influences.

"Are BKs equal to Islam?" is not the right question to be asking.

The question should be, "are some elements of the BKWSU Islamic in tendency?" and then "who or which elements?".

I think the answer to that is, "yes".

Perhaps some elements of the PBKs are not making their argument convincingly, or they are depending on weak arguments, but it is not unreasonable to suggest.

If one wanted to go even further, and believes in re-birth, it is reasonable even to suggest that some BKs would have had reincarnations as Moslems, then I think we could agree on that too which would mean they had those sanskars.

Therefore, rather than kneekerking against the idea, perhaps you should be understanding at a more subtle level. I think it is quite reasonable to look for subtle tendencies within the movement.

Has the BKWSU been influenced by Christians and even Jews in the West ... or BKs with Christian and Jewish Sanskars? Yes, I think so, and perhaps even in the beginning too.

And above all these influences ... are the majority of BK leaders still wrapped up in Krishna worship? I think the answer would be, "for sure".

I think it might help if enlightened PBKs were to clearly state who and which elements of the BKWSU leaned towards which tendencies and define how they see those tendencies.

Elsewhere, we read that Didi Manmohini represented a Buddhistic element and I wonder about that one even more.

[mbbhat]

The question should be, "are some elements of the BKWSU Islamic in tendency?" and then "who or which elements?".

I think the answer to that is, "yes".

Then there will be yes to every such question. The blood what all have have at least have something common. All believe in god. All eat food.

There is no point in questioning if the similarities is not upto at least 50% . And the person who questions should be able to defend self also.
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Words Allah,God,heaven, paradise, etc are in Murlis. So- there is common.

And Murli says- Rashi (I do not know English word) of Krishna and Christ tally (are similar). Here there is apoint where something can be discussed.

Christians have copied from Indian scriptures- eg- showing crown to Infant Jesus, Mary gave birth while being virgin (copied from Kunti of Mahabharat), and some other things I know. It may go off topic if we discuss more about them here.
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FYKI, BK philosophy believes - Real Gita (Murli) is mother of all scriptures. All religions are branches of the same tree and have the seed (God) common. So- if something of someone appears in another place, there is nothing to be surprised. No one is to be blamed.

If PBKs believe the BK activities are wrong, and hence in Bhaktimarg, that is found in some place, then let them list what all are righteous actions of PBKs (also- let them list wrong of PBKs also if any-) that appear in Bhaktimarg and in which all religions they can be found and to what extent.

Else- if they do not have anything to say about themselves where they fit, it would be foolishness to point on someone.

[fluffy bunny]

The truth is the truth whether it comes out of the mouth of a saint or a criminal. It does not matter who says it.

And Murli says- Rashi (I do not know English word) of Krishna and Christ tally (are similar). Here there is apoint where something can be discussed.

"Chart" probably, as in astrology?

Whereas I agree there are certainly stories in Christianity which seem likely to have been taken from Vedantic and other earlier legends, I don't think such a statement could refer to the mythic/religious figures of Christ and Krishna.

Perhaps they refer to characters within the BK world?

For example, Christ never loved butter, never stole, never had many lovers, never went to war, was not a cow herder nor had many incarnations etc like Krishna. Krishna was not remembered as a healer and was never crucified.

I am not a Christian and so I don't believe in those stories, it is hard for me to see what similarities there are at all. We know now that Christ and Christianity was a false construction created by the Romans (who were more like Hindus in their worship of many gods) as a political tool to unite their empire. Many Western BKs were always disappointed that the god of the BKs was not able to clarify the real facts of Jesus's life.

Else- if they do not have anything to say about themselves where they fit, it would be foolishness to point on someone.

I don't see why it has to be 'tit for tat' ... why should a PBK or non-BK not be allowed to discuss one specific point of BK dharna or Gyan in detail?

It is the BKs who are claiming such great things about themselves. Anyone who claims such superiority has to accept criticisms and inspections from others.

[mbbhat]

why should a PBK or non-BK not be allowed to discuss one specific point of BK dharna or Gyan in detail?

Who is preventing?*

Anyone who claims such superiority has to accept criticisms and inspections from others.

So- is it not responsibility of the PBKs who posted here?

* But if those who discuss are already judgmental, and wish more to criticize,then ,....blah,blah,blah
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Regarding- Krishn- Christ rashi- I have enough Murli points, but not translated them into English, hence cannot say when I will put them here. If anyone needs, can email tome. I will send them as attachment

[fluffy bunny]

Regarding- Krishn- Christ rashi- I have enough Murli point.

Please do ... start another topic on the subject.

For me, Murli points have to match real world evidence but perhaps PBKs will be willing to comment on the subject.

[mbbhat]

It is here.

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2408

Comments of anyone including PBKs - i have no problem.

[mbbhat]

So- when there are so many similarities- between BKWSU and Christianity (to refer - go tot he link given in the previous post of mbbhat in the same topic), PBKs may question- Are BKs equal to Christianity?

People learn and adopt from others. Does it imply one = other? A product manufactured in America may be used in India. does it imply America= India?

Actually- there is greatness if someone follows others. Because if everyone follows everyone in everything, there would be no problem in the world.

So- especially- if one follows another in a non violent way, what is wrong in that?

[arjun]

A senior BK Brother had told me (who came to gyaan in around 1967- 68) that- "As soon as I got message that Brahma Baba has left body, Itravelled to Mount Abu from Bangalore.By the time I reached there, Brahma Baba's body was burning". I do not know how PBKs say- Brahma Baba's body was buried. Even I do not know the truth because I did not ask this with senior Brothers or Sisters.

Half information is always dangerous. PBKs never said that he was buried. The tower of peace (Brahma Baba's tomb/shanti stambh) was erected over his ashes. Even that should not have done as per Shrimat. Remembrance of bodily beings in any form is strictly prohibited as per Shrimat.

Most of PBKs had been BKs and they still read Murlis from BKWSU and encircle BKWSU and fight or claim something from BKWSU.
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IF PBKs believe BKWSU is like Islam, then-

1)what do they need from BKWSU (Islam)?

2)Do PBK agree that they depend on Islam and 2.25 lakh souls from Islam?

3)Are all or majorities of PBKs are also those who got converted from Islam (BK) ? Then it should also be visible in worldly Islam , is it not? [That is- from Islam, many people should have got converted and they should be really good (since they resemble PBKs!] Who are they?

4)And more interesting is- after getting converted from Islam (BKWSU), PBKs again are once again encircling Islam (BKWSU)?!- and I think- they believe that they are going to get the HQ of Islam (Mount Abu) in the end. So- they are going to take shelter in Islamic HQ?

5) PBKs accuse BKs that they began from Pakistan.Then from where Sevakram began? Or do PBKs agree that their staring point was not from beginning of Yagya (OmMandli) and is just after Mr.Dixit at Farukabad?
Much more questions and challenges can be put here to PBKs.

PBKs never said that all BKs are roots (aadhaarmoort) of Islam. There are roots of all the ten religions among BKs just as there are seeds of all the religions (including Islam) among PBKs. Had you undergone the Advance Course properly you would not raise such issues.

[mbbhat]

Remembrance of bodily beings in any form is strictly prohibited as per Shrimat.

Constructing tower is not remembering it. BKs do that for service point of view. OK- let us agree that BKs have done wrong.

Now-in AIVV, it is said to remember body of Mr. dixit also together. What srimath is this?

[mbbhat]

Half information is always dangerous. PBKs never said that he was buried.

but, have you seen the topic poster sreevani has translated the point as -

2)In Islam dead body is buried.
We BKs have buried our brahmababa after he left the body.

FYKI, PBKs who have met me also said the same thing- body of brahma Baba was buried.

PBKs never said that all BKs are roots (aadhaarmoort) of Islam.

Then is it not responsibility of topic poster to say so rather than directly creating the topic as- Are BKs equal to Islam?

There are roots of all the ten religions among BKs just as there are seeds of all the religions (including Islam) among PBKs. Had you undergone the Advance Course properly you would not raise such issues.

Then what was the point in posting this topic?( Is it not giving half knowledge)?

[arjun]

Constructing tower is not remembering it. BKs do that for service point of view. OK- let us agree that BKs have done wrong.

Now-in AIVV, it is said to remember body of Mr. dixit also together. What srimath is this?

In Murlis Baba says that we have to remember the incorporeal with the corporeal. So, we remember Shiv through Shankar (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). But remembering Brahma Baba's body by creating a samadhi (tomb) in his remembrance is against Shrimat.

FYKI, PBKs who have met me also said the same thing- body of Brahma Baba was buried.

If any PBK is saying so, it is wrong.

[mbbhat]

1)In Murlis Baba says that we have to remember the incorporeal with the corporeal. So, we remember Shiv through Shankar (Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit).2) But remembering Brahma Baba's body(?) by creating a samadhi (tomb) in his remembrance is against Shrimat.

1) I think- remember incorporeal in corporeal - means remember soul in the body. Means- while doing karma, be in the conscious of both- soul and body- (else for one who is an ordinary effort maker, one cannot do karma if he is tries to be fully soul conscious directly) that is- I am soul (incorporeal) doing karma through the body (corporeal). OK- I cannot prove literally- but I have given logical explanation for that.

It is never said- Remember god in Chariot. so- how can PBKs interpret so? So- I do not think- without giving valid logical explanation, if one interprets the above in this way- he has no right to complain BKs that they are against srimath- because when Murli point clearly says- do not remember Chariot, or remember me there in Paramdham, then is the above PBKs' interpretation is not against srimath?

Else- if PBKs believe without any logical explanation from Chariot, then can it be said as PBKs following Dixit like sheeps?

2)How can you say so directly that BKs remember body of Brahma Baba there while sitting in the tomb? (Can you read mind of BKs?)

so- is it OK if one remembers body of brahma Baba without constructing his tomb?

If not- then what difference it makes- if there is tomb or not?

Do not PBKs use pictures of Vedanti Bhen, Kamala Dixit in their Trimurti or other pictures? Is not that wrong? [Of course, I do not say so-. It is for service purpose of PBKs. Similarly- even this may be for that - Because when both Sakar and Avyakt murlsi say- follow Father- chitr ko nahin, charitr ko Yaad karo- then that tomb is yaadgaar of the charitr and not chitr.

Or- is it that- BKs see charitr of brahma Baba in that tomb and PBKs see chitr of brahma Baba in that tomb? anyhow, it is up to PBKs.

[arjun]

1) I think- remember incorporeal in corporeal - means remember soul in the body. Means- while doing karma, be in the conscious of both- soul and body- (else for one who is an ordinary effort maker, one cannot do karma if he is tries to be fully soul conscious directly) that is- I am soul (incorporeal) doing karma through the body (corporeal). OK- I cannot prove literally- but I have given logical explanation for that.

It is never said- Remember god in Chariot. so- how can PBKs interpret so? So- I do not think- without giving valid logical explanation, if one interprets the above in this way- he has no right to complain BKs that they are against srimath- because when Murli point clearly says- do not remember Chariot, or remember me there in Paramdham, then is the above PBKs' interpretation is not against srimath?

• "Bahut bachchey saadhaaran roop dekh moonjhtey hain, ultaa bolney lag padtey hain. Achchey-achchey bachchey unko bhi Maya chamaat maar deti hai. Samajhtey hain – bas jo kuch hai niraakaar hee hai. So toh theek hai na. Niraakaar nahee hota toh ham tum kaisey hotey. Parantu niraakaar ko toh rath jaroor chaahiye na. Rath bigar kya karengey, ShivBaba kya karega? Rath may aaye tab toh tum unsay milengey. Tumhee say sunoon, tumhee say baithoon. Toh rath jaroor chaahiye na. Achcha saakaar bigar niraakaar ko Yaad kar dikhaao. Kya tumko gyaan prernaa say milega? Fir merey paas aaye hee kyon ho? Yah Baba bhi kahta hai ki varsa toh ShivBaba say lena hai. ShivBaba kahtey hain mai is saadhaaran tan may baith padhaataa hoon. Padhaai toh jaroor chaahiye na. Bahut achchey-achchey bachhon ka maatha hee fir jaataa hai. Doh-chaar center kholtey toh bas ahankaar aa jaataa hai. Fir ultaa boltey rahtey hain. Fir kabhi buddhi may aa bhi jaataa hai ki yah hamney theek nahee kahaa, fir pashchaataap kartey hain. Baba kahtey hain mai saakaar bigar kaisey samjhaaunga. Ismay prernaa kee toh baat hee nahee." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 22.09.07, pg 2&3)

• “Many children get confused on seeing the ordinary form; they start speaking in an opposite way. Maya slaps even the nice children. They think – the incorporeal one is everything. That is alright, isn’t it? Had the incorporeal one not been there, how could I or you have existed? But the incorporeal one certainly requires a Chariot, doesn’t He? What can He do without a Chariot? What can ShivBaba do? Only when He comes in a Chariot that you can meet Him. (It is said that) “I shall listen only to you, I shall sit only with you.” So, the Chariot is certainly required, isn’t it? OK, remember the incorporeal without the corporeal and show. Will you get knowledge through inspiration? Then why did you come to me in the first place? This Baba also says that the inheritance has to be obtained from ShivBaba. ShivBaba says I sit in this ordinary body and teach. Knowledge is certainly required, isn’t it? The brains of very nice children get twisted. No sooner than they open two-four centers they become egotistic. Then they keep speaking in an opposite way. Then sometimes it even comes to their intellect that whatever they spoke was not proper. Then they repent. Baba says how will I explain without the corporeal (medium)? There is no question of inspiration in this at all.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 22.09.07, pg 2&3 published by BKs)

- Baba is telling that “remember the incorporeal without the corporeal and show. Will you get knowledge through inspiration?” But you say that there is no need to remember incorporeal through the corporeal. Look, mbbhat Bhai, all these topics have been discussed numerous times on this forum especially with you. But if you still want to remember Shiv as a point of light just as BKs are doing since1969 you are free to do so. But please don't waste our time by repeating the old questions.

2)How can you say so directly that BKs remember body of Brahma Baba there while sitting in the tomb? (Can you read mind of BKs?)

so- is it OK if one remembers body of Brahma Baba without constructing his tomb?

If not- then what difference it makes- if there is tomb or not?

mbbhat Bhai, please don't waste our precious time by asking silly questions. If you like remembering Brahma Baba with or without his tomb, you can remember. Baba says let those who are doing Bhakti to continue with their Bhakti. So, enjoy your Bhakti.

Do not PBKs use pictures of Vedanti Bhen, Kamala Dixit in their Trimurti or other pictures? Is not that wrong? [Of course, I do not say so-. It is for service purpose of PBKs. Similarly- even this may be for that - Because when both Sakar and Avyakt murlsi say- follow Father- chitr ko nahin, charitr ko Yaad karo- then that tomb is yaadgaar of the charitr and not chitr.

Such pictures have been prepared by the PBKs unofficially for service. You cannot find such pictures in any of the mini-Madhubans or official literature or official website of AIVV. Even otherwise, Baba has said in a Murli that you should prepare the accurate picture of Trimurti. If the Trimurti picture prepared during Brahma Baba's time was correct, then why would Baba give this direction?

Or- is it that- BKs see charitr of Brahma Baba in that tomb and PBKs see chitr of Brahma Baba in that tomb? anyhow, it is up to PBKs.

Is it necessary to prepare a Bhakti symbol like a tomb to remember Brahma Baba's noble actions? His acts (charitra) have been described in the Murlis and BK literature. Is that not enough to get inspiration? Anyway, as I said, you are free to do Bhakti.

[arjun]

• "Mama nay kuch laaya kya. Kitna Mama ko Yaad kartey hain. Baap kahtey hain Yaad kartey ho, yah toh theek hai, parantu abhi Mama kay naam-roop ko Yaad nahee karnaa hai. Hamko bhi un jaisi dharana karnee hai. Ham bhi Mama jaisey achha ban kar gaddi laayak banein. Sirf Mama kee mahima karney say thodey hee ho jaayengey. Baap toh kahtey hain maamekam Yaad karo, Yaad kee yatra may rahna hai. Mama jaisa gyaan sunaana hai. Mama kee mahima ka saboot tab ho jab tum bhi aisey mahima laayak bankar dikhao. Sirf Mama-Mama kahney say pait nahee bharega. Aur hee pait peeth say lag jaayega. ShivBaba ko Yaad karney say pait bharega. Is Dada ko bhi Yaad karney say pait nahee bharega. Yaad karnaa hai ek ko. Balihaari ek kee hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 17.10.05, page 2 & 3)

• “Did Mama bring anything? Children remember Mama so much. Father says that you remember her; that is all right; but now you must not remember the name and form of Mama. We must also inculcate virtues like her. We should also become nice like Mama and become capable of sitting on the throne. Will you become capable just by praising Mama? Father says, remember only me and keep performing the journey of remembrance. You must narrate knowledge like Mama. The praise of Mama will be proved when you too become worthy of such a praise. Your stomach will not get filled just by uttering ‘Mama-Mama’. Your stomach will even start touching your back (i.e. become emaciated). Your stomach will get filled up by remembering ShivBaba. Your stomach will not get filled up by remembering this Dada also. You must remember one. Credit goes to one.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 17.10.05, page 2 & 3 published by BKs)
- Baba is telling that nothing is going to be achieved by remembering either Mama or this Dada (i.e. Brahma Baba). Then is it proper to construct Brahma Baba's tomb or to display the pictures of Mama-Baba in the BK centers worldwide or to prepare special rooms to remember ShivBaba in the form of Dada Lekhraj Brahma?