Traditional view of Bramans by Hindus

[satyaprakash]

Brahmins who do not like to dine or live with the lower caste Hindus (especially the SCs/STs).

Politicians do that for votes. Bramhins are not in that business.
Any one living in city is always moving around with every one else in all public transport and all hotels and hospitals and offices etc. In which age are you living?
What you do inside your house is your own outlook. We need not forcibly bring a Paraya or a PBK into our house and dine with them.
PBKs are banned from eating outside. Why? Are the non-PBKs equal to sc/sts? It seems PBKs are following the untouchability of all else in a very vigorous way!
Your saying is useful to attract people, especially sudras to your fold.
You should ask the above question to PBKs only!

[satyaprakash]

The finances of PBKs can be discussed elsewhere.

Tell me where? Why are you running away from this question? Where do you want me to post this question?
I only want to know if anyone other than the Virendra Dev Dixit baba and his own close assistants know about these money deals? You need not tell me the bank balance of Virendra Dev Dixit baba. Do you smell fish?
Satya.

[arjun]

Politicians do that for votes. Bramhins are not in that business.

They are very much in that business. Most of the Brahmin friends I have do not like to mingle with the SCs/STs.

Any one living in city is always moving around with every one else in all public transport and all hotels and hospitals and offices etc. In which age are you living?

I am living in a modern age only. It is most of the traditional Brahmins who are still living in an ancient age and treat SCs/STs/OBCs as untouchables. Even to this date, in the marriage parties or other ceremonies organized by Brahmins, the family members or Brahmin friends are served in separate chambers or in different turns.

They mingle with SCs/STs at public places only because the Indian law does not allow them to discriminate against the SCs/STs. Given a choice most womb-born brahmins (i.e. brahmins by birth) would not like to share seats or food with SCs/STs.

What you do inside your house is your own outlook. We need not forcibly bring a Paraya or a PBK into our house and dine with them.

This is what I wish to underline. Most Brahmins practice discrimination against lower caste Hindus in their private lives. Outside their homes their behaviour towards the underpriviliged is only due to fear of law.

PBKs are banned from eating outside. Why? Are the non-PBKs equal to sc/sts? It seems PBKs are following the untouchability of all else in a very vigorous way!

PBKs are just advised to allowed food cooked by non-PBKs. But they can accept fruits, biscuits, milk, fruit juice, dry fruits, curd, etc. from anyone including SCs/STs. And within the PBK family they can eat food cooked by any PBK irrespective of their caste, creed, religion, language, state or nationality, provided that the vegetarian food is cooked in God's remembrance and with purity.

Your saying is useful to attract people, especially sudras to your fold.

Your repeated use of the word 'Sudras' shows how much you hate them. When you are expressing so much hatred for the Sudras on a public forum like this, one can easily guess how much hatred you practice against them in your personal life.

In order to avoid using the derogatory word Sudras, Mahatma Gandhi encouraged the usage of word 'harijan' (people of God) to refer to lower caste Hindus. But today, even that respectable word 'Harijan' is considered to be derogatory by lower caste Hindus. And in this modern age, even after more than six decades after the demise of Mahatma Gandhi, you wish to use the word 'Sudras' in a derogatory fashion again and again. It just shows to what extent you are practicing Brahminism (if you are a Brahmin; and you do appear to be a Brahmin by your writings).
Anyway, it is your own life and your vision.
OGS,
Arjun

[arjun]

Tell me where? Why are you running away from this question? Where do you want me to post this question?
I only want to know if anyone other than the Veerendra Dev Dixit Baba and his own close assistants know about these money deals? You need not tell me the bank balance of Veerendra Dev Dixit Baba. Do you smell fish?

I don't have any doubt about every single paisa that I have given voluntarily for Godly service in AIVV. If you have a doubt please lodge a complaint at a proper place. There is no use arguing here. I have already written many times elsewhere that PBKs are not answerable to anonymous people like you who like to place guns on others' shoulders to fulfil selfish motives and to defame others. If you have guts just lodge a complaint against AIVV with your original name, address and phone number.

[satyaprakash]

A

There is no use arguing here.

Very correct. When there is no answer to give, how can an argument produce it? Thanks for correct statement!

If you have a doubt please lodge a complaint at a proper place.

No doubts. It is very clear. It is for PBKs to complain. You are the affected party. Thanks for the nice suggestion? Anyhow to whom should one complain? To Virendra Dev Dixit baba? Against himself? Brilliant logic!

PBKs are just advised to allowed food cooked by non-PBKs. But they can accept fruits, biscuits, milk, fruit juice, dry fruits, curd, etc. from anyone including SCs/STs. And within the PBK family they can eat food cooked by any PBK

When you think Brahmins are so bad, why do you want to go out of the way call yourself a Brahmin?
Why do you want to make the sc/st and Sudras take bath after ******* and say that they have become Brahmins?
Why do you want to eat cooked food only from PBKs whom you consider as Brahmins?
Is it not to cheat innocent Hindus?
Are you not seeing value in calling yourself a Brahmin? Is it not a way to attract sudras to your fold? I say Sudras, because of their non-exposure to many Brahmin practices. In fact Hindu Sudras are a recognised caste and have respect in society. SC/STs are also Hindus and have a place in society.
The pity is with PBKs who are not Hindus but want to call themself so- and even as Brahmins! No one will even allow them in any social gathering if they know their true colours. PBKs have become the modern MIlechas who call themself as caste Hindus. What a cheating!
Satya.

[arjun]

No doubts. It is very clear. It is for PBKs to complain. You are the affected party. Thanks for the nice suggestion? Anyhow to whom should one complain? To Veerendra Dev Dixit Baba? Against himself? Brilliant logic!

If you have guts please complain to any Government authority with proofs of misuse of money by AIVV.

When you think Brahmins are so bad, why do you want to go out of the way call yourself a Brahmin?

We are brahmins by action and not by birth. Brahmin means someone who is pure in his thoughts, words and actions. And we are not yet fully Brahmins. We are trying to become one.

Why do you want to make the sc/st and Sudras take bath after ******* and say that they have become Brahmins?

Once anyone becomes a PBK he is no more a worldly Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya or Shudra or of any other religion or nationality. He is just a child of God, a soul and is taught to see others like that. If you wish to see others with such body consciousness you are free to do so.

Are you not seeing value in calling yourself a Brahmin? Is it not a way to attract sudras to your fold? I say Sudras, because of their non-exposure to many Brahmin practices.

No, we are first souls, children of God, and then Brahmins or any other thing. Even as PBKs, we are not always Brahmins. Whenver we practice impurity in our actions, thoughts or words we are acting like Shudras. For PBKs, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas or Shudras are words with metaphorical meanings and they are not used in a literal sense. But you so-called upper caste Hindus take these words in a literal sense and discriminate against the lowercaste Hindus just by virtue of being born in a higher caste even if your actions are not worthy of that caste.

If a so-called Shudra learns and practices all the aspects of a so-called Brahmin, will you recognize him and his children as Brahmins? I don't think you will do so ever. Then why do you speak of Brahminism? If this Brahminism is only for the persons born in Brahmin caste, then there is no meaning to that word.

Will you allow a so-called Shudra to solemnize the marriage of a Hindu Brahmin if he learns all the Vedic mantras and rituals? I don't think you would ever do that.

The pity is with PBKs who are not Hindus but want to call themself so- and even as Brahmins! No one will even allow them in any social gathering if they know their true colours. PBKs have become the modern MIlechas who call themself as caste Hindus. What a cheating!

Please tell me if your mother or sister becomes a PBK, will you chase them away from your home? Even if you do so, I don't think a true PBK should feel bad about it.
Thanks for calling us Mllechas. What else can we expect from an upper caste Hindu like you who hates all the lower caste Hindus and is jealous of anyone who wishes to uplift the underprivileged ones?

[satyaprakash]

What else can we expect from an upper caste Hindu like you

Thanks for calling me so. It feels good like a PBK Brahmin!

But you so-called upper caste Hindus take these words in a literal sense and discriminate against the lowercaste Hindus just by virtue of being born in a higher caste even if your actions are not worthy of that caste.

If a so-called Shudra learns and practices all the aspects of a so-called Brahmin, will you recognize him and his children as Brahmins? I don't think you will do so ever. Then why do you speak of Brahminism? If this Brahminism is only for the persons born in Brahmin caste, then there is no meaning to that word.

The original essay by Dr.Raya was to address many of these issues. Please read it again.

No point in going round in circles. I will take a break for now and come back later.
Thanks and regards,
Satya.

[sita]

Dear brother satyaprakash,

Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is born Brahmin and is doing his job. He is narraating the knowledge from the scriptures. For what he does he accepts donations like any Brahmin. Will you ask any Brahmin about the donations he receives? This is not formal organiztion. It is just one person. If a Brahmin is teaching the knowledge from the scriptures to all the people, irrespective of their cast, it is his Brahmin service.

You may say this is not the knowledge from the scripures. Indeed his inerpretations may differ to the traditional, but for example Shankara has also been a Brahmin, but he had developed very new ideas in the tradition, that later got accepted and incorporated. One may find that this knowledge reveals the true meaning of the scriptures and explains them in essence.

Is there restriction for a Brahmin to be associated with someone from the BK or PBK if the other one from the BK or PBK is also a Brahmin? If a Brahmin is not to mix with lower casts and if some Brahmin does not follow this principle, still he remains a Brahmin. If a Brahmin opposes some wrong practicees from within the Brahmin community he still remains a Brahmin. If you are also a Brahmin and he is also a Brahmin, why do you question the conduct of a fellow of the Brahmin clan?

People in the BK or PBK, when they call themselves Brahmins, they may be of any cast, but they put different meaning to the word. Rest assured, they are not after the name of the wordly Brahmins. They don't even call themselves as Brahmins, but rather sons or daughters or Brahma (Brahma kumars or kumaris), because they recognize Brahma and see one another as childern of same Father. The worldly Brahmins are a group that even amongs themselves don't feel like brothers, because they don't recognize one and the same spiritual Father.

[fluffy bunny]

I would say most Western BKs are uncomfortable with the use of the word Shudra for non-BKs, except for a few conceited ones. But it did become used negatively of lokik people. We used to say it was a bit like calling a black person a nigger but said in a polite, slightly snobbish way rather than a hateful way. A way of reinforcing the idea that we were better than them ... even if we were nothing and had only been in Gyan a few months or years.

We were encouraged to think that we were better or superior by the BK leaders. Of course, we really did not know what we were saying nor what it meant and how insensitive it might have been.

Outside of Gyan there was idealistic theory in the West that the caste system was meant to be according to one's abilities rather than one's birth. A lot of Indianism were idealised and I think people who idealised India used to be attracted to the BKWSU is the early days of the Western service to "be Indian" (I hear that is not true now).

I can see how in theory it is a good system, each caste serving according to their strengths, none more important than the each, as in Marxism ...
[quote=Karl Marx]From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.[/quote]
The theory that, in a perfect society, every person should contribute to society to the best of his or her ability and consume from society in proportion to his or her needs. Unfortunately, it seems to be an ideal that was corrupted by egotism and the protection of financial interests.

Are there Indians who theorise about the caste system in this manner, or is it seen as hopeless, unrealistic and immature?

In my own life experience, I have come to value how much time, effort and investment goes into create an good or intelligent human being, and how quickly standards can decline. I can see why a family would want to protect high standards selfishly and for the higher good. We have a saying, "Rags to riches in two generations, riches to rags in one". The problem seems to be a lack of the intention to serve any more which has instead been taken over by the desire to selfishly protect.

A recent problem that has arise in the West is that the desire to make "every one equal" has meant standards lower so every one "become equals" at the bottom, rather than rise up. Apparently it is a real problem in children's education where they are removing the competition factor.

A discussion from that which might be useful, is whether competition is useful and healthy, and "spiritual" or Gyani. Certainly BapDada uses the metaphor to encourage people regularly.

[Roy]

A recent problem that has arise in the West is that the desire to make "every one equal" has meant standards lower so every one "become equals" at the bottom, rather than rise up. Apparently it is a real problem in children's education where they are removing the competition factor.

I have to agree with this wholeheartedly... the idea that no-one must be seen to fail is ridiculous imo. There is no promotion of excellence in this way of thinking. However; i believe we have to value everyone's abilities; be they a carpenter or a brain surgeon; we need both in society. Not that everyone should go to university, and study the works of John Lennon, or something equally lame!

A discussion from that which might be useful, is whether competition is useful and healthy, and "spiritual" or Gyani. Certainly BapDada uses the metaphor to encourage people regularly.

Baba tells us that we are in a spiritual race, and that we should chase each other. This is to encourage excellence, and there will be winners and losers, as is stated quite clearly in the Murli. However; that doesn't mean we should look down on each other, or be cut-throat... we should actually have the attitude, of "you first". Everything in life needs to be in balance. Just as we need love, we need law... just as we need self respect, we need to balance it with humility. It seems that in our society in the west, we go from one extreme to the other; where both are equally damaging in the long term.

I love the example of the story of Buddha, when he was in his sanyasi period, and was sat on a river bank. He saw a man in a boat, tuning his sitar, or some other string instrument. He had the realisation whilst watching this, that if the strings are too loose, you cannot play the instrument, as no notes will be created... but equally, if the strings are too taught, they will simply snap.

Roy

[Sach_Khand]

Some sayings of a saint of 12th century,

He who kills is a madiga - an untouchable,
He who eats dirty food is a holeya - an untouchable,
what is a caste? What is our caste?
The self - surrendered Devotees of our God, Kudalasanga (adressed for The God),
who wish only the well-being of all beings,
alone belong to the high caste human society.


At rise of moon the ocean swells;
It ebbs at waning of moon
When Rahu (supposed to be an inauspicious heavenly body) puts a screen
Before the moon (according to Hindu scriptures), pray, does the sea
Set up a cry?
And when the sage drained up the sea (according to Hindu scriptures),
Pray, did the moon come in between?
Nobody is for anybody, so !
The fallen have no freind !
Thou only, Lord Kudala Sangama (addressed for God),
Art the world's Kin !

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

[fluffy bunny]

This crosses with the other topic on how Westerners see India.

I think most people in the West have only heard bad things about the Brahmin caste and, of course, would not know or recognise a real Brahmin if they met one (e.g. many Brahmins are cooks not oppressive gurus, I spent a few days with a Brahmin taxi driver once).

I also think that the Brahma Kumaris, out of ambitions and even contempt, encourage a negative attitude towards real caste born Brahmins amongst their adherents. Especially Western adherents who are ignorant about real India.

I think real caste born Brahmins ought to work hard to portray the good that they have done and to fight corruption amongst their more ignorant members ... but how to do that? India is so big and fractured, it would be impossible.

Would it be fair to say that the greater problems emerge at a village level and in more backward or less developed areas?

If they have spent 1,000s of years protecting a state of mind and building up an intellectual base ... surely some good must have emerged from it!

Although I am not upper class, I have mixed amongst nearly the top and the bottom classes of my own society and value intelligence and refined ways of positive upper classes. I have come to value just how much time, effort and money has been put into developing civil society and I have seen how quickly it can be dragged down and destroyed by negative classes.

Civilisation is a very wonderful creation and it seems very fragile.

[arjun]

Would it be fair to say that the greater problems emerge at a village level and in more backward or less developed areas?

Yes, it is true that the problem of caste-based discrimination is more at the village and town level, but nevertheless, it is very much prevalent in the cities as well because most of the government jobs are in cities and in every government office the employees indulge in groupism based on castes. Similarly, in colleges and universities also students are divided on the basis of castes. Many residential areas are also recognized on the basis of dominance of a particular caste. Most Hindu temples are still dominated and managed either by Brahmins or upper caste Hindus. Newspapers continue to report stray incidents of lower caste Hindus being disallowed to enter into some temples by upper caste Hindus in some areas of India.

[fluffy bunny]

Here is a good brahmin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_3BEwpv0dM

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/li ... ishnan.cnn

[Roy]

Thanks for sharing fluffy Bhai.

May i ask though; is there a particular point you are trying to make with these videos?.. because I am sure all the BKs and PBKs who use this forum, will have respect for this soul's work, even though i believe, most will see it as limited charity, as opposed to unlimited charity.

Roy