Question for Shivsena and ex-pbks.

[shivsena]

"DOODH DOODH SE JAAKE MILEGA.PAANI PAANI SE JAAKE MILEGA....toh AGYAAN AGYAAN SE JAAKE MILEGA."
!!!

Is the above a Murli point or a Bhakti-marg quote and how is it applicable in Gyan marg.

[shivsena]

Dear roy Bhai and rudraputra.

Can you please quote some Murli points which prove your assumption that BKs are kaurav and PBKs are pandav.

shivsena.

[Roy]

Can you please quote some Murli points which prove your assumption that BKs are kaurav and PBKs are pandav.

Dear Shivsena Bhai

Here are a few points that i believe when combined, are proof that the PBKs are the Pandavas, and the BKs are the Kauravas. You will need to read them all to get the complete picture...

"Those who do not know ShivBaba (Father Shiv's role in Prajapita), are the Kauravas." [Mu 31.03.72]

"The name ShivBaba is based on the body." [Mu 24.03.01]

"God Shiva is incorporeal; you can love Him only through a corporeal body." [Mu 01.01.77]

"You have two servants. Highest among all, i.e. ShivBaba and then Prajapita Brahma." [Mu 02.06.05]

"Incorporeal God Father cannot do any work without corporeal Father (Prajapita), He cannot play any role." [Mu 06.12.76]

"ShivBaba bestows inheritance to Brahmakumaris and Brahmakumars through Prajapita Brahma. ShivBaba creates the Brahmin race through Brahma." [Mu 01.03.76]

"For as long as Brahma Kumar-Kumari's are in the physical body, Prajapita Brahma is also in the physical body." [Mu 03.11.87]

"Now good chances for service are coming. The time to reveal both the corporeal (Prajapita Brahma) and the incorporeal (Shiv) is coming near." (Note that this Avyakt BapDada point, was narrated in 2000) [Av 27.01.00]

"The charioteer of Pandavas(PBKs) was God(ShivBaba)." [Mu 20.02.71]

"The Pandavas(PBKs) were evicted from their country(BK Kingdom), isn’t it? So this cowshed was set up(in Kampil), isn’t it?" [Mu 17.05.73]

"Mothers are also present in the Pandava armies, is not it... One, who's weak, hides in the house. The courageous comes to the battlefield." [Av 03.02.88]

"How much ever you explain, it will not fit into their(BKs) intellect. They won't love God(in the form of the Father, through Prajapita Brahma). That's why it's sung, Kauravas'(BKs) intellect opposed God(ShivBaba after 1976) whereas Pandavas’(PBKs) intellect loved God(Shiv+Prajapita)." [Mu 18.11.74]

"Those children(PBKs) who vote for ShivBaba(Shiv+Prajapita) are preet-buddhi(accurate or co-operative Pandavas of the Confluence Age), and those children(BKs) who vote for Krishna(Brahma Baba-DL) are vipreet-buddhi(opposite or inaccurate Kauravas of the Confluence Age)." [Mu 13.04.85]

"Those who know Father (through Prajapita) and love him(preet buddhi) are called Pandavas. Those who do not love Father (vipreet buddhi) are called Kauravas. [Mu 25.12.68; 25.12.70]

"Even in the scriptures it's described that the Kauravas(BKs) and Pandavas(PBKs) used to fight during the day(of Brahma, or Advance Knowledge, narrated from 1976 onwards) and used to behave like brothers in the night(of Brahma, before Brahma Baba moved over to the Advance Party in 1976, to study via Prajapita's body)." [Mu 17.02.78]

"They are named Pandavas(PBKs) and Kauravas(BKs); both were brothers. They(Kauravas or BKs) were of Ravana’s community(of the Confluence Age) and they(Pandavas or PBKs) were of Ram’s community(in the Confluence Age). They were from the same village(were all BKs originally, before Brahma Baba's death)." [Mu 07.09.73]

"Souls having ten heads of Ravana(BK Dadis, with their various opinions) will not be cooperative in every small situation. They will keep revealing their negative pride through the heads of "Why? How? What?”... They will keep repeating that this is alright, but why is this (alright)? This is called power to add ten heads to one thing. They will never become cooperative. They will always keep opposing(ShivBaba's incognito role in Kampil). Those (BKs) who keep opposing (the Father) in every matter, belong to the Ravana community." [Av 03.04.82]

Mahabharat war is also fought in the Confluence Age, and not in the Golden or Iron Age. Pandavas(PBKs) and Kauravas(BKs) are in the Confluence Age (world)." [Mu 20.06.05]

"You should certainly obtain the inheritance of heaven(Ramraj) from the Father(Shiv, via Prajapita Brahma). The inheritance of heaven is received only in the Confluence Age, when the old world (Ravanraj) ends (for Lakshmi-Narayan and the souls closest to them in terms of their spiritual stage at this point), and the new world (of Ramraj) is established (in the Confluenced Age world of Lakshmi-Narayan i.e. Vishnupuri, which lasts for 18 years). The inheritance is received in the Confluence Age, which becomes imperishable for the future(in the Golden Age itself, after final nuclear world destruction, in 2036)." [Mu 29.08.07]

When Mahabharata war was fought(between the Kauravas and Pandavas within the Brahmin Family itself), the Father (Prajapita), through whom the inheritance is received, was also present (in corporeal form)." [Mu 07.09.07]

It should be noted that the parts in brackets are interpretations based on Advance Knowledge. Please also note, that although i have used the broad term BKs to describe who the Kauravas are... some BKs will become cooperative in the end, and some PBKs oppose the role of ShivBaba in Farrukhabad, right up to the end.

Roy

[shivsena]

Dear Shivsena Bhai.
Here are a few points that i believe when combined, are proof that the PBKs are the Pandavas, and the BKs are the Kauravas. You will need to read them all to get the complete picture...
"Those who do not know ShivBaba (Father Shiv's role in Prajapita), are the Kauravas." [Mu 31.03.72]
Roy

Dear roy Bhai.

Thanks for all the quotes...i have gone through them and i will reply one by one.
All the above points can be interpreted in 3 different ways.

BKs would interpret the above point as the outside world does not know nirakar bindu shiv(whom they consider as ShivBaba) and so the outside bharatwasis are kaurav.

PBKs would interpret the way you have interpreted that BKs do not know dehdhari ShivBaba(baba Dixit) and so the BKs are kauravs.....but imo. 108 would be the real pandav who are the only souls who will believe that videhi ShivBaba is no. 1 shivshakti (Mama jagdamba).(which is not known to bk-yadavs and pbk-kauravs.)

Again the 3 key personalities of the Yagya(Mama-DLR and Virendra Dev Dixit) deciding who is who.
shivsena.

[shivsena]

"Those children(PBKs) who vote for ShivBaba(Shiv+Prajapita) are preet-buddhi(accurate or co-operative Pandavas of the Confluence Age), and those children(BKs) who vote for Krishna(Brahma Baba-DL) are vipreet-buddhi(opposite or inaccurate Kauravas of the Confluence Age)." [Mu 13.04.85]

Dear roy Bhai.

The above point which you have quoted, can again be interpreted in 3 different ways:

BKs would interpret it as they(BKs) are preet buddhi, as they are voting for nirakar shiv-bindu as ShivBaba...while the outside world bharatwasis are vipreet-buddhi as they are firm about Krishna being God of Gita.

All PBKs would interpret the above point in the same way as you have interpreted it.....when i was a staunch pbk i also interpreted the above point in the same way as you.

But now imo. the above point can also be interpreted from another angle:
Potential 108 would interpret the point as those who vote for videhi ShivBaba(Mama-jagdamba) are preet-buddhi and those who vote for deh-dhari- Sangamyugi Krishna(baba dixit) and those who vote for Lekhraj Kirpalani-satyugi Krishna both are vipreet buddhi.

All points can be interpreted in different ways depending on which platform you are on the spiritual pyramid below....as you climb the spiritual pyramid on your way to the top, views keep on changing since the theory of relativity applies to spirituality as well and that is what makes the students numberwise.

shivsena.
=======

[Roy]

Dear Shivsena Bhai

It appears you are using the old tactic, divide and conquer. By putting your own twist on each point individually, you seek to reduce their power to create a very clear picture when looked at collectively.

Please create your own clear picture of your version of Gyan, using a similar method of using points as a collective whole. This would be much more powerful than simply saying that what i have said is wrong. You have yet to put together a cohesive or viable alternative to AK, but rather use random points to chip away at it.

I have to come back to my point, that you fight your battle with AK, using a very limited scope of points; and ask us to throw out 95% of what has been said in the Murli, in order to agree with you.

Roy

[Roy]

Sharing some more photos from Bhakti-marg showing shivling with jaladhari and Shankar-parvati(combined)....all photos from Bhakti marg prove that shiv and shakti(adi-mataa jagdamba) form pravritti-marg and shiv is never combined with prajapita brahma(male body)... viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2123&p=39832#p39832

The above rare photo has to be viewed very carefully to see that it is Maa adi-shakti in the form of parvati who is supporting the ling in her hands(buddhi-roopi haath)...meaning that it is only adi-shakti who forms the adhaar(support) for shiv in Sangamyug and not any male body (prajapita brahma)... viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2123&p=39832#p39832

What i find ironic is that the that lovely Bhakti marg pictures Shivsena Bhai has included in his post(see links above), actually prove the opposite of what he is claiming. Again, if you look at the Murli as a whole, rather than simply cherry picking points that appear to give your philosophy some credibility.

The points i gave in my last post in this thread, imo, clearly show that Prajapita Brahma is the corporeal Father through whom ShivBaba has to work, in order to do anything in practical terms in this Confluence Age. The name ShivBaba itself, means that Father Shiv is working through a corporeal being. Father Shiv's soul name is simply Shiva; any other name like Ram, Rudra etc., denotes a role being played through a physical costume; there are so many Murli points that confirm this.

The pictures he has presented, are of Shankar and Parvati, who are also the same souls who are known as, Confluence Age Lakshmi-Narayan, or Ram-Sita. This combination known as Vishnu, who actually rules in Vishnupuri(the last years 18 years of the Confluence Age), are also represented by the ling(Prajapita-Ram) being supported, by the jaladhari(Sita-Parvati-Lakshmi). This is because it is the "combined role" of Lakshmi-Narayan, that rules in Vishnupuri... Lakshmi-Sita-Parvati, is supporting Narayan-Ram-Shankar in this role... there is a harmony of sanskars.

“The Father gives His introduction; you used to worship my ling(phallus); you used to call it Supreme Soul (Paramatma). ‘Param’ and ‘atma’ make ‘Parmatma’. But they do not know as to what He does. They just say that He is omnipresent and beyond name and form. Then it does not befit if you pour milk, etc. on it. He has a form(permanent Chariot, Prajapita-Ram), this is why they pour (milk) on Him, don’t they? He (Prajapita-Ram, supreme human soul) cannot be called incorporeal.” [Mu 18.06.09]

ShivBaba has said on several occasions, that if there are memorials in Bhakti marg, then the roles depicted will have been played out here on earth in the Confluence Age, in a physical form. Yet Shivsena Bhai would have us throw all that out, by suggesting Vishnu is not corporeal at all, but is in fact the combination of Shiv+Om Radhe Mama, floating somewhere in the ether. Now does this make any real sense at all, when looked at rationally?

The name ShivBaba is based on the body." [Mu 24.03.01]

"Incorporeal God Father cannot do any work without corporeal Father (Prajapita), He cannot play any role." [Mu 06.12.76]

“Shiva is the name of the Incorporeal Father, the point of light. He has only one name, which never changes. When the forms (or roles) change, then their(the chariots) names also change.”(Mu 24.01.75)

"His soul's name is Shiva. The whole world knows this. All these remaining names are given to the bodies. ShivBaba is called just Shiva. Only His body is not visible. Shankar's name is also based upon his body. Soul is just a soul. There is a soul in him also. But names are given to the bodies, like Vishnu and Shankar. Nobody tells, "O soul! Come here." [Mu 23.03.76]

"ShivBaba(Shiv+Prajapita) is called Ram. But they have thought the Supreme Soul (or Father Shiv alone) to be Ram." [Mu 14.04.76]

"Actually my (Shiv's) name is not Ram. I am not worshipped (by people) keeping Ram in mind (but Prajapita-Ram is). [Mu 16.11.76]

"There is no such thing that Shankar-Parvati(Ram-Sita) does not exist at all (in corporeal form). This is a corporeal world." [Mu 08.05.70]

"Shankar's part is going to be played in practical(in a physical body)" [Av 09.10.71]

"A soul is praised(remembered in Bhakti marg) when it is in a (physical) body." [Mu 02.12.03]

“I have been given names based on different tasks that I have performed(via corporeal beings). They say Har-Har-Mahadev, the one who finishes sorrows of everyone. I am this myself, it is not Shankar(Father Shiv plays this role through Shankar)! Even Shankar(or Prajapita) is present(practically) in service through my inspiration. Brahma is also present in service.” [Mu 04.11.73]

"When did these Lakshmi-Narayan(Vishnu or Ram-Sita) rule? Neither in Kaliyug nor in Satyug(which is ruled by Radhe-Krishna/Mama-Brahma Baba). Heaven(Ramraj) is established(begins) in the Confluence Age. Others cannot think so deeply. People(PBKs) do not require so much elaboration. [Mu 16.11.71]

"This is the Confluence Age, a time for sinful to become pure, is not it? When they(Ram-Sita) become complete(karmateet at the end), then the new Kingdom, new (Confluence Aged) era(Heaven-Ramra) of Lakshmi & Narayan(Ram & Sita) begins, which is called Vishnupuri(the abode of Vishnu). Sustenance takes place(in the Confluence Age for 18 years) through the two forms of Lakshmi & Narayan(Vishnu)." [Mu 6.09.77]

"Here (in the Confluence Age) you are yourself becoming Lakshmi-Narayan, Sita-Ram by hard work (spiritual efforts)." [Mu 10.09.07]

“Two forms of Vishnu, Lakshmi-Narayan (Ram-Sita), rule the kingdom(Ramraj-Heaven, beginning in the Confluence Age itself, for 18 years).” [Mu 6.09.92]

"In Temples also, accurate pictures are found. (But) only those of Lakshmi-Narayan, Ram-Sita. These are the highest souls who enjoy their inheritance." [Mu 31.07.73]

"These(Brahma-Saraswati) also know that we are going to become Lakshmi-Narayan(of the Confluence Age). We are going to be Ram-Sita." [Mu 25.05.72]

"Actually, Brahma(Ram)-Saraswati(Sita) are not Mama(Radhe)-Baba(Krishna). [Mu 21.07.77]

“Father (Shiv) alone establishes the pure family cult after coming down on earth. That is why four arms have been shown for Vishnu - Parvati(Sita) with Shankar(Ram), and Saraswati(Radhe) with Brahma(Krishna).” [Mu 23.01.90]

"Vice less world of deities is being established through Brahma. Destruction is going to take place through Shankar. Then there will be the reign of Vishnu (all three of these practical roles, take place in the Confluence Age itself, and through corporeal beings or murtis)." [Mu 22.01.78]

"The subtle(soul conscious) Deities, Brahma, Vishnu & Shankar have their temples in the physical world, because they come to play their part(role in a body) here(on earth during the Confluence Age)." [Mu 25.06.73]

"Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar are His(Father Shiv's) children. All the children of the incorporeal Father (Shiv) are incorporeal souls. They come down here (on earth) and adopt (physical) bodies." [Mu 21.08.99]

"You children know that the one whose memorial is built (in Bhakti-marg) would definitely have come on this earth (in a physical body) at the Confluence Age." [Mu 05.09.05]

"Whatever has been written in Gita, Bhagwat, Mahabharata can be compared with (whatever is happening) now (in the Confluence Age world of Brahmins)." [Mu 19.04.73]

Please note the the parts in brackets are interpretations based on Advance Knowledge.

Roy

[shivsena]

"You have two servants. Highest among all, i.e. ShivBaba and then Prajapita Brahma." [Mu 02.06.05]

Dear roy Bhai.

If ShivBaba and prajapita brahma are two highest authority, then why is it said in Murlis that "prajapita brahma se varsa nahin milta".(meaning : " inheritance is not received from prajapita brahma")...also it is said in Murlis "prajapita toh praja ka rachieta hai"("prajapita is creator of praja") and "prajapita toh praja ke beech hoga."(prajapita will be amongst praja").

So combining all the above points, the statement you have quoted can interpreted in a different way....that ShivBaba(no. 1 shivshakti) creates only 108 kings and is the highest authority for only 108 king souls(direct children)....whereas prajapita is also highest authority but only for praja(16000--adopted children) and not for 108 kings.....Also since prajapita is in the corporeal world and not in the subtle angelic world, he cannot possibly be the highest authority for 108 king-farishta-angelic souls.

Also if both ShivBaba and prajapita are highest authority, then why is prajapita brahma never worshipped in Bhakti-marg and why is adi-shakti jagdamba worshipped all year round.

So all relevant Murli points have to be collectively churned to arrive at a logical conclusion...if only one Murli point is interpreted alone, then there is a very likely chance that one may miss the correct meaning.

Also can you share your views about how both the highest authority are servants of children.

shivsena.

[Roy]

If ShivBaba and prajapita brahma are two highest authority, then why is it said in Murlis that "prajapita brahma se varsa nahin milta".(meaning : " inheritance is not received from prajapita brahma")...also it is said in Murlis "prajapita toh praja ka rachieta hai"("prajapita is creator of praja") and "prajapita toh praja ke beech hoga."(prajapita will be amongst praja").

Dear Shivena Bhai

Is your translation of the first point accurate?... because if it is, then the point makes complete sense. This is because the inheritance is received through Prajapita, from Father Shiv... Prajapita himself, is not giving the inheritance. Only Father Shiv can to give us the inheritance, Prajapita is the Chariot or role, through which it is given.

"Incorporeal God Father cannot do any work without corporeal Father (Prajapita), He cannot play any role." [Mu 06.12.76]

Also, Prajapita has to be amongst the people or Brahmins in corporeal form, in order for the inheritance to be received.

"For as long as Brahma Kumar-Kumari's are in the physical body, Prajapita Brahma is also in the physical body." [Mu 03.11.87]

"Prajapita should be here, is not it? Othewise, from where will he come? Father explains himself that I come in a sinful body. Certainly he will be called Prajapita. He cannot be said to be residing in Subtle Region. What will the subjects do there?" [Mu 18.06.05]

Also if both ShivBaba and prajapita are highest authority, then why is prajapita brahma never worshipped in Bhakti-marg and why is adi-shakti jagdamba worshipped all year round.

I believe Prajapita is remembered as Prajapati in Bhakti marg, hence why in the early days of the Yagya, Prajapati Brahma was referred to, while the new BKs were still immersed in Bhakti practices and beliefs. The title was corrected to a Gyani one some years later, as more knowledge was narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba.

I think Prajapita is remembered more prevalently as Shankar, as these two separate roles, are actually played through the same Chariot, by Father Shiv in the Confluence Age. In fact, i believe Shankar has more memorials than any other. In the end it is Shiv Shankar that is revealed to the world, not Shiv Prajapita. As well as this, Prajapita will also be revealed as Narayan at the end, as in Lakshmi-Narayan or Vishnu. This memorial of course, is very prevalent in Hindu culture. The truth is, i am not really that familiar with who is worshipped and to what extent in Hindu culture, so i cannot say a lot more on this subject at this point. So if anyone else has a better understanding of this issue, please contribute this to the discussion.

As for Jagadamba; again i am not familiar enough with Bhakti practises to comment on this particular point either.

Also can you share your views about how both the highest authority are servants of children.

As fathers, both Shiv and Prajapita will be servants of their children... all parents are servants of their children, whether in the Confluence Age or the lokik world. Ram and Sita(Vishnu) are the servants of their children Radhe-Krishna, in the Golden Age. Father Shiv comes into the impure world to purify His children via Prajapita-Ram, and therefore grant us liberation form suffering... is this not service?

"Unlimited Father is the servant of unlimited children. Bodily Father(Prajapita) is also a servant, is not it?" [Mu 05.02.68]

Roy

[Roy]

I have been giving a little more thought to the Murli points about Prajapita Brahma...

"Incorporeal God Father cannot do any work without corporeal Father (Prajapita), He cannot play any role." [Mu 06.12.76]

"For as long as Brahma Kumar-Kumari's are in the physical body, Prajapita Brahma is also in the physical body." [Mu 03.11.87]

"Now you have become children of Prajapita Brahma. You know that ShivBaba will take you to heaven through Prajapita Brahma." [Mu 18.04.73]

"Now good chances for service are coming. The time to reveal both the corporeal (Prajapita Brahma) and the incorporeal (Shiv) is coming near." (Note that this Avyakt BapDada point, was narrated in 2000) [Av 27.01.00]

I think it is safe to say, whoever Prajapita Brahma is, we know that he will be here on this earth in a physical body right up to the very end, along with the Brahmin children, and that he is the Chariot of Father Shiv, through whom we receive the inheritance of heaven.

But the point that i wanted to particularly highlight was the one that says, without Prajapita, Father Shiv cannot play any role. To be honest i hadn't fully recognised the significance of what is being said here, because this point tells us quite clearly, that through the body of Prajapita, there will be more than one role played by Father Shiv, and we know that each role is played with a different name attached to it.

“I (Shiv) have been given names based on different tasks that I have performed.” [Mu 04.11.73]

“Shiva is the name of the Incorporeal Father, the point of light. He has only one name, which never changes. When the forms(roles) change, then their(the chariots) names also change.” [Mu 24.01.75]

"Actually my (Shiv's) name is not Ram. I am not worshipped (by people) keeping Ram in mind (but Prajapita-Ram is)." [Mu 16.11.76]

"ShivBaba(Shiv+Prajapita) is called Ram. But they have thought the Supreme Soul (or Father Shiv alone) to be Ram." [Mu 14.04.76]

What else do we know about Prajapita... that he is next to Shiva. We also know that Shankar is next to Shiva.

"Prajapita Brahma is very great, is not it? He is called next to God(bapsaman)". [Mu 20.11.76]

"Shankar is meant for destruction. So, he is next to Shiv." [Mu 21.02.71]

Prajapita and Shankar are different roles. That is, through Prajapita the inheritance is received, and through Shankar, Father Shiv gets destruction done. But i feel quite safe in suggesting that these two separate roles are played through the same corporeal Chariot, based on these Murli points. Then there is the role of Ram...

"If ShivBaba doesn’t play any role He will be of no use. He wouldn’t have any value. He will be held valuable only when he bestows true salvation (sadgati) upon the whole world. Only then is He praised as Ram, the bestower of true salvation on all." [Mu 16.12.74]

So i feel very safe in suggesting that Ram is yet another name that is attached to the corporeal Father, Prajapita, the Chariot who will be right here with us until the end, the Chariot through which Father Shiv plays his various roles after 1969, until the end.

It is suggested by some that it is never said in the Murli, that all these roles are played through one Chariot, but i think when looked at as a whole, these points can only lead to one reasonable conclusion.

Roy

[shivsena]

Dear roy Bhai.

At the end of each Sakar Murli, it is said: "Meethe meethe sikki-ladde bacchon prati, mat-pita BapDada ka Yaad pyar aur good-morning aur ruhani Bap ki ruhani bacchon ko namaste."

[ Meaning: "Mother-Father and BapDada say good morning to their sweet sweet, long-lost children and give them lots of rememberences and love.....and the spiritual Father says namaste to his spiritual (ruhani) children."]

Before we carry on our discussion any further, it is most important to know to which souls are the above words spoken by Shiva ....Are they spoken to the 9 lakh BKs who are sitting in front or are the words spoken by emerging the 16000 PBKs or are they spoken to 108 king souls(shivshakti-pandavsena)....Also it is important to know who are the combined mat-pita and BapDada and who is ruhani Bap.

If we can agree on the above issues, then only all further discussions can be meaningful and fruitful, otherwise everything is just a waste of time, waste of energy.

shivsena.

[Roy]

"Mother-Father and BapDada say good morning to their sweet sweet, long-lost children and give them lots of rememberences and love.....and the spiritual Father says namaste to his spiritual (ruhani) children."]

Before we carry on our discussion any further, it is most important to know to which souls are the above words spoken by Shiva ....Are they spoken to the 9 lakh BKs who are sitting in front or are the words spoken by emerging the 16000 PBKs or are they spoken to 108 king souls(shivshakti-pandavsena)....Also it is important to know who are the combined mat-pita and BapDada and who is ruhani Bap.

Dear Shivsena Bhai

This is the official English translation, that appears in the Murlis...

"To the sweetest, beloved, long-lost and now-found children, love, remembrance and good morning from the Mother, the Father, BapDada. The Spiritual Father says namaste to the spiritual children."

There is no and between Mother-Father, BapDada... so for me, this is saying that BapDada is the mother-Father. We know from the Murli that Dada Lekhraj/Brahma Baba, plays the part of the true elder mother, so it is really a matter of which Father does the Bap refer to here. The term BapDada is most widely believed to be Father Shiv and Brahma Baba, but there is at least one Murli point that indicates that BapDada also refers to the corporeal Father, Prajapita and Brahma Baba.

I feel that the latter may be the case, as otherwise why would it go on to say that the Spiritual Father (Father Shiv) says namaste to the spiritual children?

"Brahma(Baba-DL) is your elder mummy. But many children have not recognized completely. Now they are still recognizing." [Mu 01.05.73]

"This is Sun of Knowledge(Prajapita Brahma). This secret (incognito) Mama(Brahma Baba-DL) is different(has a different role to him). This secret is hardly understood or explained by anyone. The name of that Mama(Adi Brahma-Jagadamba) is different. Temples are built for her. Is there any temple for this secret old Mother (Brahma Baba-DL)?" [Mu 17.11.77]

"When there are two unlimited fathers (Shiv & Prajapita), then there should be two mothers also surely. One is Jagdamba(Gita Mata-Adi Brahma), secondly this Brahma(Baba-DL) is also a mother(incognito Jagadamba)." [Mu 03.02.78; 08.02.78]

"Both Baap and Dada. Twins are born(Prajapita's and Brahma's spiritual births, as a result of Father Shiv's own Divine birth, through Adi-Brahma Jagadamba, in 1936/7), isn’t it? Both their roles (Prajapita's and Brahma's) are combined (after 1969, which is remembered in Bhakti marg as the form, Ardhanarishvar; the Lord who is half woman)." [Av 15.06.72]

As for ShivBaba speaking to the spiritual children... this is addressing the children whose intellects have opened up, through having recognised the Father, Shiva, in his permanent Chariot, Prajapita Brahma, the Sun of Knowledge. These are the true soul conscious or spiritual children. We have to bear in mind that Father Shiv it Trikaldarshi; the things said in the Murli are not limited to the time in which they are spoken, which is an argument that is used by some.

Note that the parts in brackets are interpretations based on Advance Knowledge.

Roy

[shivsena]

This is the official English translation, that appears in the Murlis...
"To the sweetest, beloved, long-lost and now-found children, love, remembrance and good morning from the Mother, the Father, BapDada. The Spiritual Father says namaste to the spiritual children."
Roy

Dear roy Bhai.

My question still remains unanswered.
Who are the children described above??
Are they 9 lakh BKs...or are they 16000 PBKs...or are they 108 shivshakti-pandavsena !!!

shivsena.

[Roy]

My question still remains unanswered.Who are the children described above??Are they 9 lakh BKs...or are they 16000 PBKs...or are they 108 shivshakti-pandavsena !!!

I think the spiritual children in the strictest sense are the 108, because they are the ones who get closest to ShivBaba's incorporeal stage. They are the one's who practise being in the seed stage the most, emulating Baba Dixit's(Prajapita's) efforts, which result in him becoming Bapsaman... 100% soul conscious stage. But any soul in a body, who is making genuine spiritual effort based on recognition of ShivBaba through advance knowledge, is a numberwise spiritual child. So it could relate to the 450,000 souls who survive destruction in its broadest sense.

Roy

[shivsena]

I think the spiritual children in the strictest sense are the 108, because they are the ones who get closest to ShivBaba's incorporeal stage. They are the one's who practise being in the seed stage the most, emulating Baba Dixit's(Prajapita's) efforts, which result in him becoming Bapsaman... 100% soul conscious stage. But any soul in a body, who is making genuine spiritual effort based on recognition of ShivBaba through Advanced Knowledge, is a numberwise spiritual child. So it could relate to the 450,000 souls who survive destruction in its broadest sense.
Roy

Dear roy Bhai.

You have given a very diplomatic answer.

Imo, i feel that the last statement of all Sakar Murlis refers only to 108 king souls and not to 16000 praja or to 9 lakhs bhakts.....in the latest avaykt Vani dated 15-11-11 Bapa Dada is waiting for only "Bap-samaan 108" to get ready.

The title of "Gyani atma" also goes to 108 souls only and not to 16000 or 9 lakhs.
shivsena.