Forum changes

[button slammer]

I have not been following the discussion on this forum and do not know what the merits of this particular debate here are. I don't know what has been moved where, or what is really going on

As you are clearly not up to speed on the topic some background is below. Then decide if the situation is the same as your own affairs with the likes of John Morgan, Terry, Joel, Bansy etc.

sita wrote:
The forum has not been creted by shivsena, he inherited it through BKinfo, but if he pays tax for domain he is in charge. But participants have rights, investing time and energy. Now it is Ravan Rajya, decisions are taken by consulting one another.

Button Slammer wrote: Yes now you touch on practical matters and the way foreward. In my view shivsena has allowed contraversial topics to be the forefront of the forum. Any new soul with an interest in AK is immiediately perplexed by the state of affairs here. He has performed little if any site maintenance, the overall impression is that of a war zone.
From the response of members so far, the general pulse is that shivsena (or whoever), should be allowed to continue with whatsover contoversial topics regarding AK. The format should be changed though, so that newcomers to the forum should be presented with a fair and reasonable representation of who and what PBKs are; what AIVV is; a general outline of the aims of the PBKs, how it relates to the BKs in particlar, and to the world at large; not to be based around the relio-political views of a single tyrannical individual who has controlling power of the forum format.
At present the PBK forum is based around mostly mature Brahmins who have completed at least the bhatti, have met Baba face to face, and or have a resonable amount of independant churning power. The genral feeling and experience is: SINK OR SWIM. This is just plain wrong. Any visitor to the site should be made to feel welcomed and well informed, neither of which shivsena has remotely succeded in. Newcomers and regular PBKs alike are simply put off by the barrage of offensive topic titles that continuously seek to undermine the efforts of AIVV, its founder, and students.
It's disheartening to say the least, to be made to feel a stranger in ones own home by an individual re: the administrator himself, who openly declares the founder a liar, the AIVV as false, and its followers as cowards. To have the right to organise ones own affairs in ones own home is not too much to ask for is it?

I am proposing a consensus of 'NO-CONFIDENCE' in the ability of shivsena to administrate this forum.

As and when he steps down I propose that a trio of PBKs take up the admin duties, who will sort out the day to day running of the forum, plan around anticipated future events, and incorporate newness into the forum.
To create a form of mission statement that can sum up in a nut shell what is AIVV etc.
A section on Yagya history, (as we understand it so far).
Each new admin to serve a minimum of say 4 months, to share and pass on admin skills.
Regular PBK contributors should take responsibility for the forum at least for a short time.
The first task of the new admin may well be to archive topics from the previous admin and begin again.
To review the case of any PBKs banished under the previous admin and consider reinstatement.
To accomodate the likes of shivsena and other PBK detractors a section entitled HOT TOPICS/CONTRAVERSIAL ISSUES: (enter at your own risk etc), rather than consign them to the splinter group, which would most probably be a fate worse than death for them.
As and when shivsena steps down there shold be no gloating.
He has and will continue to play his role as he sees it, and I know many members have affection for him, including myself.
Should shivsena be unwilling to step down his reasons must be looked into.
OK AUM

[sita]

I am confused as to where I am suposed to post now. There are many forums, where there are moderators. Maybe for the different sections there could be different moderators. In this way the PBKs can gain at least little of independance. To my observation shivsena's, and posts of others members also, have always been answered to the best of possibility, and the problem is not the battle of knowledge itself, but the stuck position of the forum that has made it inevitable for some change to be made so that to go on. Indeed, what kind of a progam, purpose and agenda could be there for such forum? To me it seems fair if shivsena expreses his views in separate place, because the task he has adopted for himself to win over the whole PBK family, along with its teacher Maya/Ravan, puts all the PBKs in the uncomfortable position of being enemies. The substantial points has become less and less and discussion has become lost in trivial matters or has lost ground or common sense.There is difference in making a point and there is difference in having agenda. For example...facts speak for itself. Let the facts and points be presented and someone will be autmatically proven a liar or not. But if the title itself says...lies, lies, then this does not lead to any discussion as such posts aim to state and expose someone as something and with their statement their purpose is fulfilled. Shivsena posts are similar. Exposing and exposing. I don't know where to comment now, but i find that here in this topic everybody has gathered so for example...it is hard to gather the position of Anu. Does he believe in ShivBaba, or Shiv, has he come in Brahma baba, then what happened, where is he now, etc. It is comfrotable position to only criticise without any statement. One can adopt or discard any point in any time and change his mind. How can there be discussion in such case? That's why i propose that instead of losing time in fruitless discussion we stick to the classical way of debate, where one states some thesis then the other one has to show that he has understood it by expresing the thesis of the oponent and then show the weackness of this thesis (if any) and then presenting a new thesis. Shivsena tries to do this, but his Shivmama theory is very weak. He may try again with some other theory, but also note when the opponent shows the weackness in such theory and acknowledge and accept that. The problem is with the communication. he only exposes the lies, then states unprovable theory that he does not maintain it and the proof is that he changes it every now and then. So the starting point has to be the presentation of the new knowledge. For Anu it is still needed to present some new solution, so that the discussion can go on and move ahead. Otherwise we will always be stuck in exposing, exposing, criticising, defaming etc. for the PBKs this has also become very boring. Please, respect the time and effort of every member, even if he is liar ro whatever and finally we should better refrain from and avoid using etiquettes, labels and qualifications of any kind. Lets not judge people, but ideas. Let our main interenst be the ideas in itself and not the people behind them. If Shivsena is not ashamed he can create a topic with title "Mama as ShivBaba" or something like this and systematically present his theory there and remain open for debate, otherwise it is seen that his theory is only useful in cases of criticism of other theories and does not have a pillars of its own to stand on them independently. Anu also can present the core of his theory that "AK is lie" in fact he has well presented it along with proofs that he undesrtsands the AK, what remains is the presentation of the correction, or the new knowledge, idea or solution. He should remain open to debate and to answer questions like who is ShivBaba, where is he now etc. In this regards Shivsena has remained available, but Anu comes, makes some remarkable exposings and then hides and reponds as he pleases. He does not come here for disussion, he does not expect answers from anyone. He needs place to rub the nose of the PBKs, it is the same with Shivsena. In such cases it should not come as suprise the consolidation of the PBKs, this will come only when they are adressed as a group or there is some agenda. If everyone is treated as separate human, there could be friendly and fruitfull dialogue with nice points, sharing, insights, exchange, discoveries and even well intended humor.

[warrior]

Hi guys.

To be honest, although I drop in from time to time,...

fluffy,
Welcome back,
Can’t you help us here? Maybe give a hand to Shivsenabhai or allow someone else to join in to help sorting the layout of this forum. It is confusing in here.
Also, I would really appreciate if all the posts regarding History of Institution could be grouped together in a separated section. This is important for what is to come in near future.
Kind regards,
warrior

[shivsena]

Also, I would really appreciate if all the posts regarding History of Institution could be grouped together in a separated section. This is important for what is to come in near future.
warrior

Dear warrior Bhai.
I will make a seperate section on bk-pbk history versions in a few days.
shivsena.

[warrior]

Dear warrior Bhai.
I will make a seperate section on BK-PBK history versions in a few days.
shivsena.

Dear Brother Shivsena,
Thank you!

Kindly select what is best from all past contributions on History of BK-PBK and put in this new section of History you will be creating.
The future is bright my friend...

aumshanti

[shivsena]

Kindly select what is best from all past contributions on History of BK-PBK and put in this new section of History you will be creating.

Yes---i will be doing that...all posts relating to history will be in one section.

The future is bright my friend...
aumshanti

Yes--Sangamyug is kalyankari...there is kalyan in everything which happens around us...we just have to be sakshi bhav.

[button slammer]

Yes---i will be doing that...all posts relating to history will be in one section.

Perhaps if successful this will prove to be a legacy of your pushkarni bramin status ie, before anything is accomplished the intellect requires a kick start.

we just have to be sakshi bhav.

It remains to be seen to what extent you are attached to your admin status.

[button slammer]

]

There seems to me to be some kind of 'pre-menstrual tension', or is it 'post-menopausal tension', that effects both forum discussions, local centers and even entire religions, on some kind of cyclic level ... and it seems to be that you have just reach that low point now. It will pass.

Who says we are going through a low point? Is your view only, just buiseness as usual here. Perhaps you view the world through the emotional filters of the female reproductive system and draw conclusions that way, it doesn't seem an accurate way to interpret the world though.

of trying to make someone into an admin who might not really want to be,

shivsena himself accepts the role of admin.

It may not be perfect but it exists.

Why live life in a slum? I don't have to accept my environment as it is just because you say so.

And I suspect, just like John Morgan, you are doing that from a position of having given nothing, and giving nothing, but really only taking. In short, a parasitical position biting back and poisoning its host. Everyone takes everything for granted on the internet. They seem to think it is free, just because they don't pay for it and have no idea what work it takes to sustain.

I refute this 100% It is shivsena using the PBK platform as a place to proselytise his views. An admin cannot both proselytise and moderate at the same time. Shivsena is simply freeloading off the good graces of the PBKs. If You wish to see me as a poison than do so, some poison is good for the system.
As an artist in the past I've worked on projects 24/7 for months. Some folk hardly even notice the efforts put into the show. I could care less. I do stuff because of what I get out of it. Perhaps its you who enjoys the bloated head of creating the bloated BKinfo/wallmart forum. So tell, how much money you spend, how much time you spend?

Neither you, nor John Morgan, seem to consider for a second the damage you were doing to the greater whole, a greater whole that others the likes of Arjun ... and even Veerendra Dev Dixit and his immediate supporters ... have poured 100s of hours of their time, work and energy into creating.

Actually, if this site went up in smoke today or tomorrow. none of us would even bat an eyelid.

I have no real idea what the doctrinal difference are.

Yes, it's painfully obvious, your ill informed statements highlights the yawning chasm of understanding between what you think is going on here and what is actually happening. Perhaps just shuffle back to BKinfo and await the next BK service news bullitin, yawn.

if you want to fight, take it off forum and work it out somewhere else.

Sorry to tell you, but this forum is the battleground, its why we're all here. If you are too squeemish then do not look.

As I understand it, Shivsena posts here as an equal individual to the rest of you and that is all he wants.

Actually, shivsena has admin rights which he has abused. If he wants to post as an individual then he can relinquish his admin position. End of.

I am not surprised at all to read that Andrey got banned again, he has a serious problem.

But it's not such a serious problem as your own bloated head. Is the pissy lecture over now? Hope you can squeeze your head through the door on the way out.

[button slammer]

fluffy,
Welcome back,
Can’t you help us here?

Am sure fluffy would be happy to help, depending on 'the time of the month'. Apparantly his intellect is governed by the lunar cycle, menstual flow/menopausal flushes and the like,(well as he explained it).

[fluffy bunny]

The differences between you and I. button slammer, is that

a) I won't lower myself to discuss things in that manner, and
b) I know what I am talking about, and can endlessly document the reality of situations.

I don't need to depend on slurs, or false personal attacks in public.

Can’t you help us here? Maybe give a hand to Shivsenabhai or allow someone else to join in to help sorting the layout of this forum. It is confusing in here.

I would if I could but I am afraid that I don't know the subject area well enough.

Discussion forums are difficult to manage. It would be far better to hand it over some entirely neutral third party to run, a fair referee to do their best but that wont happen, so what other options exist?

I always found Arjun to be entirely equanimous and accommodating and despite have the power to do what he wanted at bkinfo, he never once did or abuse it. Neither did Bansy or others. Yes, delegating moderatorship to specific forums in possible. Often the BEST thing to do with a problematic person is give them some responsibility.

Although I don't follow the path of 'Advanced Knowledge', it was always clear that Shivsena was both raising entirely valid anomalies or paradoxes ... AND pushing his own version which he felt was correct. Purely from a logical perspective, I thought many of the controversies he raised were valid and I found many of the answers from Virendra Dev Dixit disappointing. I think Virendra Dev Dixit has an interesting part in the history of the Yagya but I was left feeling it only went so far.

Having said all that ... I would trust Shivsena to do something if he said he would and if he has said he is limiting himself, I would guess he will.

I see you got your history forum now. I think you guys and sisters could do great service by attempting to sort it all out and document the history of the AIVV/PBK which has not been done (at least in English). If it is done, perhaps some academics etc - and questioning BKs - will pick up on it too. Better to work together rather than against each other.

It is probably better to work together on something rather than argue theoretically over irresolvable issues. Statements of faith are irresolvable because they are based on faith. Only time will tell who was right. You should all work together to show a better example to the BKs, and put a better face on AK for the rest world.

What terrible things has Shivsena done as admin?

I found Andrey's to be like that of a hammer and a little bit too idealistic at times ... but I appreciate the value of him having some social support from other BKs or PBKs. I always thought what he lack was sufficient contact with others. Technically, if he was being an irritation, the boss could limit his access to one or two general forums only .. he could even have his own sub-forum where he could voice his opinions and others could go to speak with him if they wished. It is all possible.

Folks have to accept that discussion forums are not perfect, have some limitations according to their design ... and that it is very easy for obsessive individuals to spoil them. It seems to be some problem inherent with computers, the internet and perhaps the kind of people that use them rather than go down the shops or center for a natter.

To me, it looks like the new forum design is true ... one forum does seem to support AK, the other question is? In simple terms, what is the problem?

[fluffy bunny]

Once you have built up the history section, it would be good to incorporate some other pages into this website to explain what it is all about to the rest of the world both BK and otherwise.

Discussion forums without that are all a little bit too obscure and closed to newcomers.

You need a simple FAQ.

[ANU]

In my opinion this forum has become similar to a bazaar or an exhibition of barking dogs. It goes to nowhere, I do not wish to participate in it anymore. This is a never ending game of arguments and contrarguments, sometimes or often in nasty styles in my opinion breaking basic rules of view exchange, which here button slammer presented.
Thanks guys. Boil in your water.

[sita]

Dear Anu,

But what you are doing is very much the same. See what you do, you come, say we are like dogs and go. If you do not wish to particpate, that is alright, it is your own wish, but what is the need for the final attack. Simply don't participate, you have not made a commitement so that you need to apologize for not participating. Everyone comes and goes on his own, as he likes. You like to present it that you won't participate due to the uncomfortable athmosphere, but the fact is that you go by your own choice, with your nose high, no one has chased you away. But with such statement you only aim to humiliate people, that is not necessary.

[arjun]

In my opinion this forum has become similar to a bazaar or an exhibition of barking dogs. It goes to nowhere, I do not wish to participate in it anymore. This is a never ending game of arguments and contrarguments, sometimes or often in nasty styles in my opinion breaking basic rules of view exchange, which here button slammer presented.
Thanks guys. Boil in your water.

I think you made such statements in the past as well and came back to participate in the discussions. So, if you feel like joining the barking dogs like me once again in future, you are most welcome (sister/brother) anu. Wish you all the best once again.

[fluffy bunny]

In my opinion this forum has become similar to a bazaar or an exhibition of barking dogs. It goes to nowhere, I do not wish to participate in it anymore.

Anu,

do what you want and be happy, but understand it is what these types of people 'do' on forums ...

• if they cannot "win", and dominate with their values and ideas, they try to destroy the atmosphere of the forum by personal attacks to sabotage it. They try to "win" by chasing people like you away. It is just petty and nasty.

Better to stick with it and have a positive effect upon them. Better to spend energy working on a positive aspect like Arjun does.

The history section would be a good project.