Presence of ShivBaba

[arjun]

there are two subtle Brahmas.

I have heard in Murlis that there are two Brahmas. But I have never heard there are two subtle Brahmas.

the other subtle Brahma is the real subtle Brahma (DL after 1969).

Shiv enter none of the subtle Brahmas (even if they exist).

"Parmatma ke liye hee gaayan hai – Hey patit-paavan, aatey bhi hain patit duniya aur patit shareeer may. Patit shareeer ka naam hai Prajapita Brahma. Ismay pravesh kar kahtey hain mai bahut janmon kay anth vaaley saadhaaran manushya tan may pravesh kartaa hoon. Sookshmavatanvaasi sampoorna Brahma may nahee aatey hain. Khud kahtey hain inkay bahut janmon ke anth ke janma may aata hoon. Bahut janma letey hee hain Raadhey-Krishna. Unkay bahut janmon kay anth ka janma saadhaaran hai. Aisey toh kahtey nahee hain ki mai paavan shareeer may pravesh kartaa hoon. Bhagwaanuwaach mai saadhaaran tan may aata hoon. Ab Bhagwaan jaroor aakarke is saadhaaran tan dwara aatmaon ko baith samjhaatey hain ki mai Parampita Parmatma hoon. Mai Krishna kee aatma nahee hoon, na Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar kee aatma hoon. Mai Parampita Parmatma hoon, jisko Shiv Parmaatmaay namah kahaa jaataa hai. Mai ismay aaya hoon. Mai sookshmavatan vasi Brahma may pravesh nahee kartaa hoon. Mujhey toh yahaan patiton ko paavan banana hai. Merey dwara hee vah sookshmavatan vasi Brahma paavan banaa hai, isliye unko sookshma may dikhaya hai.....Bhagwaan oonch tey oonch niraakaar ShivBaba hai. Varsa deney ke liye jaroor Brahma tan may aayega. Yah Prajapita Brahma hai, sookshmavatanvaasi Brahma ko Prajapita nahee kahengey. Vahaan thodey hee praja rachengey. Ham Brahmakumar kumariyaan saakaar may hain toh Prajapita Brahma bhi saakaar may hain. Yah raaz aakar samjho. Ham is Dada ko Bhagwaan nahee kahtey. ... Yahaan koi paavan hai nahee. Trimurti Shiv ke badley Trimurti Brahma kah diya hai. Parantu Trimurti Brahma ka koi arth nahee hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 24.11.07, pg 1&2)

• “It is famous only for the Supreme Soul: O purifier of the sinful ones. He even comes in a sinful world and a sinful body. The name of the sinful body is Prajapita Brahma. He enters in this one and says: I enter in an ordinary human body of the last one of many births. He does not come in the complete Brahma who is a Subtle Region dweller. He Himself says: I come in the last one of their many births. It is Radha and Krishna who take many births. The last one of their many births is ordinary. He does not say – I enter in a pure body. God said: I enter in an ordinary body. Well, God certainly comes and explains to the souls through this ordinary body: I am the Supreme Father Supreme Soul. I am not the soul of Krishna, nor am I the soul of Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar. I am the Supreme Father Supreme Soul, the one who is called ‘Shiv Parmaatmaay namah”. I have come in this one. I don’t enter in the Subtle Region dweller Brahma. I have to come and purify the sinful ones here. It is through me that the Subtle Region dweller Brahma has become pure. This is why he has been shown in a subtle form........The highest on high incorporeal ShivBaba is God. In order to give the inheritance He will certainly come in the body of Brahma. This is Prajapita Brahma; the Subtle Region dweller Brahma will not be called Prajapita. The subjects (praja) will not be created there? We Brahmakumar-kumaris are in corporeal form; so Prajapita Brahma is also in corporeal form. Come and understand this secret. We do not call this Dada God. ...... Nobody is pure here. Instead of Trimurti Shiv they have mentioned Trimurti Brahma. But there is no meaning of Trimurti Brahma.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24.11.07, pg 1&2 published by BKs)

No need. Because when just Shiv enters- there is no change.But when both enter, there can be change- why not?

When Shiv doesn't enter in subtle Brahma at all, then the question of Shiv entering in Gulzar Dadi does not arise at all.

Yes, it is true that- when ShivBaba enters subtle Brahma and leaves- still cannot be predicted. ShivBaba may go to Paramdham leaving Brahma Baba in Subtle Region whenever he wishes.

It is the biggest misconception among BKs that Shiv has gone back to the supreme abode. Read the following Murli point:

• "Tum jaantey ho ham ShivBaba ke baney hain toh yah deh ka bhaan chodnaa padey. Apney ko aatma ashareeri samajhna mehnat ka kaam hai. Isko kahaa hee jaataa hai rajyog aur gyaan. Donon akshar aatey hain. Manushya jab martey hain toh unko kahtey hain Ram-Ram kaho ya guru log apna naam dey detey hain. Guru mar jaataa toh fir unkay bachchey ko guru kar detey hain. Yahaan toh Baap jaayengey toh sabhi ko jaanaa hai. Yah mrityulok ka antim janma hai. Baba hamko amarlok may ley jaatey hain, via muktidhaam jaanaa hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 24.03.08, pg 3)

• “You know that we have become ShivBaba’s (children), so we have to leave this body consciousness. To consider ourselves a bodiless soul is a difficult task. This is called rajyog and knowledge. Both the words are used. When people are about to die they are asked to utter the name of Ram or the gurus give their name. When a guru dies, his son is made the (next) guru. Here, when the Father departs, everyone has to go. This is the last birth in the abode of death. Baba takes us to the abode of eternity. We have to go via the abode of salvation.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24.03.08, pg 3 published by BKs)
- BKs say that with the demise of Brahma Baba in 1969, Father Shiv also left for the Supreme Abode. But in the above Murli Baba is telling that here, when the Father departs, everyone has to go. Had ShivBaba departed in 1969, everyone should have gone to the Supreme Abode along with Him. But it did not happen like that. So, does it not prove that ShivBaba is even now performing His task in this world itself?

[mbbhat]

I have heard in Murlis that there are two Brahmas. But I have never heard there are two subtle Brahmas.

One is just the image (like photo). I had already mentioned there. I do not know why you could not understand. If my image is in mirror, does that imply there are two persons like me?

Baba used to say - there is complete brahma in Subtle Region before 1969 itself. Now, how can there be complete brahma before 1969 itself? So- it was image that Baba created for two purposes- one to give children the message. children used to go to Subtle Region- by trance and get message of ShivBaba through (image of) Brahma. The other - it acted as milestone to Brahma Baba to check himself- where he has reached in his effort.

ther is a Murli point which also says- I enter in complete Brahma

SM 6-11-77(2):- Koyi buraa kaam kiyaa toh be_ijjati hogi. So bhi Baap ke aage. ShivBaba baith_thay hain na. Tumko saakshaatkaar karaavenge. “Hum ismey thaa. Tumko kitnaa samjhaate thay. ABHI MAIN SAMPOORN (BRAHMA) MAY HUN". TUM BACHCHIYAAN SAMPOORN BABA PAAS JAATI HO, US DWAARAA ShivBaba DIRECTION AADI DETE HAIN NA. Toh tumko saakshaatkaar karaavenge ki is par baithkar tumko kitnaa padhaate, samjhaate thay ki daivee gun dhaaran karo. Service karo. Kiski nindaa na karo. Tumney phir bhi yah kaam kiye. Ab khaavo sajaa”. -8 [warning, Prajapita, Hoshiyaar, vision]

= If you do any bad action, it will create insult, that too of the Father. ShivBaba is (also) seated (in this), is it not? (In the end) visions will be given to you -"I had been in this (Sakar Brahma). You were taught a lot. Now, I am in complete (Brahma)". (Even now) You children go to (image of) complete Brahma, ShivBaba gives directions through him (image of Complete Brahma), is it not?. So (in the end), you will be given visions* that- "by sitting in this (Sakar Brahma) how much you were being taught- inculcate divine virtues, do service, do not criticize/insult others. Even then you did this (bad) actions. Now, eat/experience punishment”

* - I think while giving vision, ShivBaba would be inside the complete brahma. the initial sentences (underlined) say this.
So- it seems- in the end , being seated in complete brahma Baba would give visions- that- by sitting in Sakar brahma, i had taught you this, this, and this. ...

Shiv enter none of the subtle Brahmas (even if they exist).

Refer to the above Murli point.

I enter in an ordinary human body of the last one of many births. He does not come in the complete Brahma who is a Subtle Region dweller.

This implies ShivBaba does not enter in the image. How can he enter the image? [refers to before 1969]

I have come in this one. I don’t enter in the Subtle Region dweller Brahma. I have to come and purify the sinful ones here. It is through me that the Subtle Region dweller Brahma has become pure. This is why he has been shown in a subtle form....

This proves that- the same Brahma (DL) is going to become pure. This proves the subtle brahma before 1969 was just image. else- how can there be pure brahma before 1969?

1)the Subtle Region dweller Brahma will not be called Prajapita. The subjects (praja) will not be created there? We Brahmakumar-kumaris are in corporeal form; so Prajapita Brahma is also in corporeal form. Come and understand this secret. 2) We do not call this Dada God. .

1)The above Murli point is said before 1969. What would have been ShivBaba's aim at that time? to prove that- I have incarnated in a corporeal human being. But lowkik people do not believe that- God enters in a corporeal human being, nor it is written in scriptures. But lowkik people believe that brahma resides up above. So- the above mruli point refers to lowkik people. Here Baba wishes to prove that- my incarnation has happened in physical world. Hence Baba says so.

2)clearly says- the Murli point is for lowkik people and not for BKs.

1)BKs say that with the demise of Brahma Baba in 1969, Father Shiv also left for the Supreme Abode. But in the above Murli Baba is telling that here, when the Father departs, everyone has to go.

1) BKs do not say so. It is myths and lies spread by PBKs. BKs believe both shiv and subtle brahma are waiting for children to become complete and to go home.

[mbbhat]

1)The above Murli point is said before 1969. What would have been ShivBaba's aim at that time? to prove that- I have incarnated in a corporeal human being. But lowkik people do not believe that- God enters in a corporeal human being, nor it is written in scriptures. But lowkik people believe that Brahma resides up above. So- the above mruli point refers to lowkik people. Here Baba wishes to prove that- my incarnation has happened in physical world. Hence Baba says so.

Murli points supporting the above statement:-

SM 21-1-89(1):- Shiv aur Shankar ko manushyon ne milaakar ek kar diyaa hai. Kahte hain Shankar vinaash karte hain. Unsey aankh kholee toh vinaash ho gayaa. Vinaash toh bombs se, natural calamaties se hotaa hai. Shiv Shankar mahadev kahte hain. Yah chitr koyi yathaarth naheen. Sab arth rahit hain. Yah sab Bhaktimarg ke chitr hain. Vahaan aisee koyi baath naheen. PPB bhee dehdhaaree hai. Kitney dher bachche hain. Yah sab chitr poojaa ke liye hee hain. Baap ne samjhaayaa hai yah vyakt, vah Avyakt. Jab Avyakt bane hain toh faristaa ho jaate. MOOLVATAN, SOOKSHMVATAN DONON HAIN ZAROOR. Sookshmvatan may bhee jaate hain. Baap ne samjhaayaa hai PPB jo manushy hai, vahee faristaa bantaa hai. Phir raajaayi kaa bhee usmey dikhaayaa hai. Phir yah raajy karenge. SOOKSHMVATAN KAA CHITR NA HO TOH SAMJHAANE MAY MUSHKILAATH HO. Vaastav may Vishnu kaa chaturbhuj roop bhee naheen. Yah hain Bhaktimarg ke chitr. Baap samjhaate hain aatmaa ko hee patit se paavan ban_naa hai. -27 [Prajapita, Chitr, sookshmvatan]

= ....Actually, the pictures (what you have) are not correct. ... these all are pictures of Bhaktimarg....Without picture of Subtle Region, it would be difficult to explain the knowledge. actually- Vishnu's form is not with four hands. these all are of Bhaktimarg.

SM 2-6-81(2):- PRAJAPITA BRAHMA DWARA KAISE BACHCHE PAIDA HOTE HAIN YAH KOYI BHI SHAASTR MAY NAHIN HAI. Yah to Baap samjhate hain. BAAP NE INMAY PRAVESH KAR PHIR INKA NAAM PRAJAPITA BRAHMA RAKHA HAI JISKO ADI DEV KAHA JATA HAI. Achcha baap se kya milta hai? Samjhya jata hai yahaan Baap ka varsa nahin milta. Dade ka milta hai. Vah hai nirakar. Patit Pavan Gyan ka sagar. [IMP]

= how, children are created through Prajapita Brahma, this is not written in any scripture. Father explains this. Father entered in this and kept the name as Prajapita who is also known as Adi dev....

SM 26-6-72(3, 4):- Shaastron may likh diyaa hai Krishn bhagaaye le gaya. Yah to julm kar diya. SriKrishn bachchaa unke liye kahte. Yahaan phir kahte hain Brahmakumariyaan bhagaatee hain. Bolo PRAJAPITA BRAHMA ka naam suna hai? SAMAJHTE HAIN VAH TO SOOKSHMVATANVASI THAA. Arey- PRAJAPITA BRAHMA sookshmvatan may kaise hoga? Vah to zaroor sthoolvatan may hoga na. To ab tum jaante ho hum takdeer banane aaye hain. Yahaan Baap baithe hain sammukh. Baaki teachers numberwaar hain. Yahaan Baap baithe hain. PPB ke mukh dwaaraa Bhagavaan ne sabhi vedon shaastron kaa saar sunaayaa hai. Pahley to Brahma sunegaa na. Vishnu KO, BRAHMA KO VATAN MAY DE DIYAA HAI. Ab Vishnu hai Satyug ka maalik. Brahma hai Sangam ka. Braahman to yahaan chaahiye na.

= Ask them have you heard of the name Prajapita brahma? They think- He was in Subtle Region- arey- how can PPB be in Subtle Region? He should be in physical world. ... they have shown brahma and Vishnu in vatan (lowkik people believe that Brahma resides in brahmalok, and Vishnu in Vaikunth- above this physical world)...

[mbbhat]

Murli points that prove Subtle Brahma = Prajapita

SM 8-11-76(2):- Sookshmvatan may jo Brahma dikhaate hain, vah toh paavan hai. Sookshmvatan may Prajapita toh ho nahin saktaa. Baap samjhaate hain yah vyakt hai, yah jhaad may bhi pichaadi may khadaa hai. Yahaan bachchon sahit Yoga may baithay hain pavitr faristaa ban_ne liye. TOH SOOKSHMVATAN MAY BHI DIKHAANAA PADEY. YAHAAN BHI PRAJAPITA BRAHMA ZAROOR CHAAHIYE. Vah Avyakt, yah vyakt. Tum bhi faristaa ban_ne liye aaye ho na. Ismey hee manushy moonjhte hain. Kyonki yah hai bilkul nayaa gyaan. -11- [Prajapita, BHI]

= The Brahma shown in Subtle Region is pure. PPB cannot be in Subtle Region. Father explains- this is vyakt (corporeal). This is standing at the end/bottom in the (picture of) tree. He is seated with the children doing Yoga to become angel/farista. So- (PPB in sublte form) should also be shown in Subtle Region. Here also PPB is definetly necessary. This is vyakt. That is Avyakt. You also have come to become farista, is it not? In this point only people get confused. Because this is totally new knowledge.

See- Baba says- In this point only people get confused. why? Just think- when people do not believe Brahma had been here, 'but had been a person up above, how difficult would be for them to digest this? So- Baba explains- Hey- children the brahma above what you believe is pure. But initially (before that) when i come here- it would be impure world. so- i will get impure body only. I need to purify. After that- they will become pure/angel. [Point to be noted is- main yaadgaars in Bhaktimarg is shown only of pure things. hence Brahma is shown as up above in Bhaktimarg. - else- if it is Prajapita in corporeal form is going to be revealed in the end, even in Bhaktimarg, it should have been shown as Brahma resides in corporeal world. why is it shown above? ].

[Since yaadgaar is shown of pure things only, the part done during impure part will not be clear. this is the reason why pure Krishna is shown as Gita of god in the place of God in impure brahma. else- if Brahma's yaadgaar is shown as impure Brahma, automatically- mind will think- how can impure brahma can teach? So- god should have entered in him. Easily god's introduction can be guessed. but when pure Krishna is put there God is forgotten- that is why Baba many times says-i need brahmins. the question is not of juts brahma, it is also braahmins]

[If PBKs believe this Murli point (Baba's saying - I do not come in subtle Brahma) is for BKs, then let them explain what is the significance of subtle(pure) brahma in drama. Is it to play parts like Hiranyakshayap, Ravan, etc? OK, let us even agree so. Then let them show yaadgaars of that in Bhaktimarg scriptures- where it says- Prajapita brahma is different than Brahma and God entered in two chariots, one temporary, another fixed, and the yaadgaars of how the title holder Brahma plays role of Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, no. 01 false guru, Dharmaraj and still dharmaraj, etc.

Why baba says- people get confused to understand that the same vyakt becomes Avyakt? Do BKs get confused in this? they esily understand that the vyakt becomes Avyakt. So- it is for lowkik people. Because nothing about this is available in scriptures. ]

SM 24-9-73(3):- Sthaapnaa karnevaalaa hai Parampita Paramatma- IS BRAHMA DWARA. Yah bhi Baba ne samjhaayaa hai sookshmvatanvaasi ko Prajapita nahin kahenge. Vahaan Praja hoti nahin. Toh zaroor Prajapita Brahma yahaan hoga. Vah hee phir Avyakt sampoorn banega. Vah toh hai Avyakt. Zaroor vyakt bhi chaahiye jo phir Avyakt hona hai. Donon abhi dikhaayi padte hain. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA YAHAAN BHI HAI TOH SOOKSHMVATAN MAY BHI HAI. Prajapita toh zaroor yahaan chaahiye. Zaroor Prajapita Brahma ke bachche bhi yahaan hee hain. Tum sabko kah sakte ho Prajapita jo vyakt hai vahee phir Avyakt hona chahiye.

= The one who creates is Supreme Godfather-through THIS Brahma. Baba has also explained that the (present) subtle Brahma (may be image what BKs show or the lowkik people's belief) cannot be called as Prajapita. There is no praja(citizen). So definitely Prajapita would be here. He only will then become Avyakt. That is Avyakt(subtle). Definitely vyakt(corporeal) is also needed who will become Avyakt. Both are seen now. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA IS HERE AS WELL AS IN Subtle Region. Prajapita should be here. Definitely Prajapita Brahma’s children also would be here. You can tell all that the Prajapita who is corporeal himself will/should then become subtle. [VVIMP][118]

[arjun]

One is just the image (like photo). I had already mentioned there. I do not know why you could not understand. If my image is in mirror, does that imply there are two persons like me?

Ur imaginary words don't impress me.

Baba used to say - there is complete Brahma in Subtle Region before 1969 itself. Now, how can there be complete Brahma before 1969 itself? So- it was image that Baba created for two purposes- one to give children the message. children used to go to Subtle Region- by trance and get message of ShivBaba through (image of) Brahma. The other - it acted as milestone to Brahma Baba to check himself- where he has reached in his effort.

Almost the entire Yagya including Brahma Baba was following the path of knowledge on the basis of Bhog, dhyan (trance) and deedaar (visions/sakshaatkaar) instead of knowledge. So, the Murli point regarding complete Brahma in Subtle Region was just metaphorical and referred to the future Brahma's part to be played from 1976. The entire Subtle Region and the surrounding stories are imaginary. You are free to believe such imaginary concepts.

1) BKs do not say so. It is myths and lies spread by PBKs. BKs believe both Shiv and subtle Brahma are waiting for children to become complete and to go home.

You yourself have written in this thread that Shiv comes from Paramdham, enters in subtle Brahma and then both enter in Gulzar Dadi. You forget your own words so soon. It is not my problem.

Point to be noted is- main yaadgaars in Bhaktimarg is shown only of pure things. hence Brahma is shown as up above in Bhaktimarg. - else- if it is Prajapita in corporeal form is going to be revealed in the end, even in Bhaktimarg, it should have been shown as Brahma resides in corporeal world. why is it shown above?

All the memorials in the path of Bhakti pertain to acts performed in this Confluence Age in practical and not in the Subtle Region through subtle body.

If PBKs believe this Murli point (Baba's saying - I do not come in subtle Brahma) is for BKs, then let them explain what is the significance of subtle(pure) Brahma in drama. Is it to play parts like Hiranyakshayap, Ravan, etc? OK, let us even agree so.

There is no part of subtle Brahma in the Subtle Region as such. The soul of Brahma Baba is not living in an imaginary Subtle Region situated above the Earth's atmosphere or beyond this universe. He is very much present here in this world. He is playing his part of studying advance knowledge through Shankar's body and is depicted as the half Moon on Shankar's forehead. He also enters in various Brahmin children to inspire them to study advance knowledge and to do service.

Don't stick to a word like a child. You have to differentiate different roles played by Brahma Baba's soul. He played the role of being the Chariot of Shiva. Shiva played the role of a mother through him. Shiva played the role of a doer (karanhaar) through him. But Brahma Baba also played his individual part as an effort maker (purusharthi), as a student. It is during his role as an effort maker that he failed because he became egotistic of his part as the Chariot of God. That is why he was named Hiranyakashyap. As regards Ravan, it is a misconcept spread on internet by some souls. It has been clarified by ShivBaba several times that in his individual capacity Brahma Baba played the role of the head of donkey placed above the ten heads of Ravan. And his role as a donkey has been praised a lot by ShivBaba in advance knowledge. Just as a donkey obediently carries the burden of clothes from a washerman's house to the laundry and back, in the same way Brahma Baba's soul carried the burden of the Yagya from 1942 to 1969 during the absence of the actual Prajapita Brahma (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). He is praised as the dearest child of Shankar, i.e. Ganesh. He is also praised as Hanuman. But you don't see all those praises and catch one or two words to defame the PBKs and advance knowledge for your selfish motives. Anyway, you can keep trying. But you will never succeed because Baba has declared that howevermuch you may try to separate Bap (the soul of Ram) and Dada (the soul of Krishna), they will unite again and again. So, decide yourself whether you wish to play a positive role of uniting the Brahmin family or a negative role of disuniting the Brahmin family.

[arjun]

Then let them show yaadgaars of that in Bhaktimarg scriptures- where it says- Prajapita Brahma is different than Brahma and God entered in two chariots, one temporary, another fixed, and the yaadgaars of how the title holder Brahma plays role of Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, no. 01 false guru, Dharmaraj and still dharmaraj, etc.

I have already written several times that Brahma Baba's memorial is the temple of Brahma in Ajmer. Yaadgaar of Brahma's role as Hiranyakashyap or false guru is Prajapati Daksh. I have asked you to see the serial Devon ke dev Mahadev on Lifeok TV channel. You will understand everything. Each and everything being shown there is a memorial of the incidents that are taking place in the Confluence Age. PBKs feel overjoyed to see the entire knowledge tallying with the serial.

The memorial of Prajapita Brahma is Adi Dev of Dilwara, Adam of Christians, Aadam of Muslims, Adinath of Jains, Shankar of Hindus, and Narayan.

[mbbhat]

So, the Murli point regarding complete Brahma in Subtle Region was just metaphorical and referred to the future Brahma's part to be played from 1976.

In the Murli point- it is clearly mentioned that- you children go and talk to complete Brahm and get directions of ShivBaba through him. So- it refers to that period (before 1969) only. OK- you need not agree.

The entire Subtle Region and the surrounding stories are imaginary. You are free to believe such imaginary concepts.

i know. It is matter of saakshaatkaars/vision. That is all. But, for a person in physical world- it makes no difference. Because- punishment is given after vision. So- even if Subtle Region does not exist physically- there is effect of visions and directions.

In that case- then every knowledge should be take imaginary. Baba says- you had been in Satyug. So- is there Satyug now? no. So- should we say- the knowledge is false and imaginary? but, it is through the present available knowledge, we can prepare ourselves for future.

Are thoughts real or not? Can one show it physically? Impossible. So- should we declare thoughts are imaginary?

Actually- it is thoughts what we experience and not the matter undergoing change, is it not? even in dreams, we experience, may be for short period.
scientists write books . Should we say it is just book which is as common as other books? No. it is full of knowledge. Similarly- in the end- when Baba gives visions, it will have very high importance.
---
but, strangely surprising is- PBKs on one hand say- all of them are imaginary. But when they wish to prove their philosophy- they point out trance messages of BKWSU souls to BKs. Is this not Double standard?

You yourself have written in this thread that Shiv comes from Paramdham, enters in subtle Brahma and then both enter in Gulzar Dadi. You forget your own words so soon. It is not my problem.

I have said- shiv is free to move anywhere he wishes. The final return has not come.

All the memorials in the path of Bhakti pertain to acts performed in this Confluence Age in practical and not in the Subtle Region through subtle body.

Then prove it properly if you wish. .

He is playing his part of studying Advanced Knowledge through Shankar's body and is depicted as the half Moon on Shankar's forehead.

Do Bhaktimarg people believe this? where is yaadgaar that Brahma studies through Shankar's body? Is is believed by Bhaktimarg people that Brahma is half moon or had been half moon and then became full?

It is during his role as an effort maker that he failed because he became egotistic of his part as the Chariot of God.

Murli point says opposite. I have already put here. It says- both ShivBaba and Dada were nirahankaari (egoless).

He is praised as the dearest child of Shankar, i.e. Ganesh. He is also praised as Hanuman.

But, then in Bhaktimarg, there should have been yaadgaars - where there is belief that Hiranyakashyap also plays good roles like Hanumaan, Ganesh, Dharmaraj, etc?
I do not say- PBKs do not praise brahma Baba. they praise mainly to support their philosophy.
The main and first thing is- God reads some papers (Murli) and explains! There should have been yaadgaar of this in Bhaktimarg.

[rmn]

My dear mbbhat bai brother soul.
pl tell me how u are doing Yoga with sweet Shiva bap-shiv/nirakar.
thank.

And My dear Arjun bai brother soul,
Pl u also tell me how u r doing Yoga with sweet Shiva bap- shiv/nirakar.
thank.

And My dear BKWSU supporter brother souls,
Pl u also tell me how u r doing Yoga with sweet Shiva bap-shiv/nirakar.
thak

And My dear Shivasena bai brother soul,
Pl tell me how u r doing Yoga with sweet Shiva bap-shiv/nirakar.
thank.

And My dear other bai souls,
pl u also tell me how u r doing Yoga with sweet shiv bap-shiv/nirakar.
thank.

Pl all above brother souls. with open hearts, pure vision and with soul concessioness pl write the truth on the above subject.
thank

[Rudraakash]

Here are few mu. points which are clearly saying that BRAHMA AND PRAJAPITA BRAHMA are two different personality, In which PRAJAPITA IS CREATOR OR Father and BRAHMA IS CREATION OR MOTHER

Mujhe BRAHMA zaroor chahiye toh PRAJAPITA BRAHMA bhi chahiye"
Murli Date:15.11.87


"Creator BRAHMA ko nahi kaha jaata"
MU dt:13.2.75

"PRAJAPITA BRAHMA ko bhi creator kehte hai"
MU dt:26.7.77

"PRAJAPITA BRAHMA vah dono toh naami graami hai."
MU dt:19.3.68

Mu1-2-68
Tumko maloom hai DO BAAP hai,Teesa fir hota nahi, BRAHMA SE KOI WARSA NAHI MILTA.

Mu 14-1-2000
PRAJAPITA BRAHMA SABKA BAAP HUA. Ek hai Lokik Baap, dusra hai Parlokik Baap. AB YAH TUMKO ALOKIK BAAP MILA HAI.

Mu 19-12-01
PRAJAPITA BRAHMA KO BHI PITA KAHTE HAI, To Mata kaha? YAH BRAHMA MATA BAN JATI HAI.

Mu 17-1-2000
WAH BAAP TO ALAG HAI, BAKI Dada BHI Maa HAI, Parantu yah male ka chola hone ke karan mata mukarar ki jati hai.

[Rudraakash]

Mu 3-7-99
UNKA WAH RATH TO BADA HAI. AANE SE HE GYAAN SUNANA SHURU KAR DIYA. YAH TO KUCH NHE JANTE THE.

Mu 10-5-68
Sharir chhutega tab jab BAAP KA RATH aakar lenge.

Above both points are clearly talking about TWO PERSONALITY, After Diminishing the one Father will take another costume,

[mbbhat]

Above both points are clearly talking about TWO PERSONALITY, After Diminishing the one, Father will take another costume,

who said No? That is why BKs believe after DL, Dadi Gulzar is the Chariot. Even in Avyakt Murli- it is said- even after Dadi Gulzar- BapDada may come in another corporeal body.
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Regarding other Murli points supplied by you- I have are already replied to most of them. You may search in the forum.

If you wish, I will mention the links here to you. - provided - i see your request- because I cannot say- when i will become off line [Why i do not mention them myself is because- then it may appear that- i am interested in projecting myself]
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and in some cases, if you mention just one line of Murli point, it may not be enough to understand. We need to listen to two to three sentences before and after that point [i am not saying that every point needs , but in some cases, there is need]

[arjun]

In the Murli point- it is clearly mentioned that- you children go and talk to complete Brahm and get directions of ShivBaba through him. So- it refers to that period (before 1969) only. OK- you need not agree.

It is just imaginary.

In that case- then every knowledge should be take imaginary. Baba says- you had been in Satyug. So- is there Satyug now? no. So- should we say- The Knowledge is false and imaginary? but, it is through the present available knowledge, we can prepare ourselves for future.

BK concept of Golden Age is imaginary. But PBK concept is not. BKs speak of golden palaces, deities covered with jewelery from tip to toe, aeroplanes, rivers of milk, etc. etc. But PBKs say that the Golden Age will be established here in the midst of the Iron Age. Even while living in an atmosphere of pain, sorrows, vices, disturbance, the mind and intellect should remain stable, happy and peaceful. That is a stage of heaven we have to achieve here in the Confluence Age in this birth. What BKs show is a imaginary world that is to be established after death.

but, strangely surprising is- PBKs on one hand say- all of them are imaginary. But when they wish to prove their philosophy- they point out trance messages of BKWSU souls to BKs. Is this not Double standard?

BKs take trance messages in a literal sense like primary school children whereas PBKs draw a metaphorical meaning out of those messages. For example, some messages say Mama is born in Nepal, some say in Delhi and some say in London. But the fact is that she has not taken rebirth at all. Mama being born in Nepal, Delhi or London has a metaphorical meaning.

I have said- Shiv is free to move anywhere he wishes. The final return has not come.

Don't change your words after being shown the truth.

Then prove it properly if you wish. .

You can see on internet. Anyway, if you wish to know in detail come to the mini-Madhubans. Here, on the internet you just argue.

Do Bhaktimarg people believe this? where is yaadgaar that Brahma studies through Shankar's body? Is is believed by Bhaktimarg people that Brahma is half moon or had been half moon and then became full?

Murlis say that Brahma is Moon of knowledge and that moon is shown on Shankar's forehead. If people of Bhaktimarg can understand all the meanings where is the necessity for Shiv to come on Earth?

Murli point says opposite. I have already put here. It says- both ShivBaba and Dada were nirahankaari (egoless).

Actions are a better proof than words. During and after his lifetime he has allowed his photographs to be displayed all over BKWSU (Madhuaban, centers, gitapathshalas). He allowed offering of Bhog, construction of samadhi, allowed children to have his photographs, even in the dress of deities. He has been presiding over all the violations of Shrimat (at organizational level) without correcting the BKs.

But, then in Bhaktimarg, there should have been yaadgaars - where there is belief that Hiranyakashyap also plays good roles like Hanumaan, Ganesh, Dharmaraj, etc?
I do not say- PBKs do not praise Brahma Baba. they praise mainly to support their philosophy.

I have already explained that different roles are played through Brahma Baba at different periods and by different souls. You cannot mix up everything. Every soul passes through sato, rajo, tamo phases of purusharth during Confluence Age. The role of Hiranyakashyap is played during the tamo stage. This is applicable to the soul of Ram as well. It has been clarified several times how Ram becomes Ravan and Krishna becomes Kansa.

The main and first thing is- God reads some papers (Murli) and explains! There should have been yaadgaar of this in Bhaktimarg.

Scriptures are shown in the hands of Brahma.

[mbbhat]

Murlis say that Brahma is Moon of knowledge

there is a Murli point which also says- brahma is gyaansoory. But I cannot claim now without mentioning it.

Actions are a better proof than words. During and after his lifetime he has allowed his photographs to be displayed all over BKWSU

Murli says- Prajapita ka alag photo honaa chahiye = there should be separate photo of Prajapita. [sorry- i do not have date now]

Scriptures are shown in the hands of Brahma

Good attempt. I appreciate for the immediate answer. But- that implies god gives knowledge thorugh Brahma . but- god himself reads something and explains.....does not digest to me. OK, good.

And- much more questions arise. It is gyaan gagaayein (rivers of knowledge) that should flow and not the ocean (god). But in AIVV, it is the ocean(God) that moves/travels maximum.

Debate will never end. You are here in the intention of doing service and even myself.

both of us agree that truth will win and also respect truth from inner side. so- Good and fine.
Hope we end with good mood. Thank you.

[mbbhat]

My dear mbbhat bai Brother soul.
pl tell me how u are doing Yoga with sweet Shiva bap-shiv/nirakar.
thank.

I see either soul or ShivBaba or heaven or Paramdham while doing anything. Like a child remembers its mother one remembers lover.

It is immaterial where you imagine him. you can feel ShivBaba is in Paramdham and even self as here, or both are there, or both are here, whatever it is , it is OK. Only thing is- we should not forget at least one of the above.

and do actions slowly- walk slowly- eat slowly- think slowly- listen slowly. if someone talks with fast speed, talk only to the needed extent


Feel that the body, food, object, any matter- all are same- because all are nothing but prepared from protons, neutrons and electrons. Is it not?

So- even when you get hunger, feel that- actually you should not feel the hunger. Take 10 seconds break- Oh- i feel hungry- why? I am not body, i am soul , is it not? then- why do i feel it?

Oh, Oh- the reason is I have not considered body as an object. feel then body as not body, but just a doll of plastic (proton, neutron and electrons). Then your hunger will be eliminated. Then you will eat only to the right extent as if you are just putting petrol into a car.

But- sometimes you will have no interest to eat food. Because when you become soul conscious, automatically- all feelings will die and you are already in liberated stage.

You will get super sensuous joy. But hold on. Do not move fast (except doing exercises and emergency situations)). Try to eat the food as if you are eating just mud.

But initially- before taking the food, check whether its taste, smell are correct for your body/health requirement. Once you make sure that the food is OK, then consider both the body and food as mud and eat the food.

You may also practice like this. i am not at all present in this body. i am at Paramdham. This body is ShivBaba's. So- feel how would ShivBaba sit in this and eat, if he has such a role in drama. He will not even take vaasanaa- right?

So- assume that ShivBaba is in your body and is taking care of the body.

when someone comes in front of you, assume that soul is perfect. do not feel that you give knowledge to that. You will get burden or ego.
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another best way is- to feel that i am just repeating action as i had done 5000 yrs before. that is- when you eat, sit, stand, walk, try to feel i am not fre. I am fully caught by drama. drama is making by body to move, to think. So- become fully surrender.

and most important- see everyone as they are caught in drama - hence they are doing wrong such actions.

even if someone does bad, do not think- that person as doing bad- think that- it is the pre ordained role in that soul that is forcing that person to do such action. you will not get influenced either by good or bad in anyone.
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even if you sit in Murli class to listen Murli- do not give any attention to the sister or brother there. Talk only if the other person is ready to listen with slow movements.

While listeing to Murli, feel that you are in Paramdham sitting and hearing to Baba- and it is a point teaching to point.

Or emerge Baba- point in front of you- say - one feet distance from your forehead and is giving you the knowledge

Or you may feel two points- one yourself and one Baba- both are outside your body, or both inside your body or however you feel.

the point is- sharir may fasnaa nahin = we should not get caught in the Kaliyugi body.
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but when you sit and do Yoga, it is better to feel self with Baba at Paramdham or feel the heaven.
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While giving drushti- do not think that you are seeing at forehead of someone. feel that you are seeing the diamond (soul) in a box or mud (body). You then will feel that- actually- you are notgiving drushti at all. you are just trying to feel soul (niraakaar = incorporeal) in everything (Sakar).

More practice- when you listen to words or speak- assume that- they are not words- they are just acoustic waves. [scientifically- sound is nothing but waves]. then you will not have feeling/emotions.

Then even when you speak- Baba, friend, dog, sweet, brother, sister, Dadi, did, etc- you will not feel any difference.

You will go beyond words and sound- Baba says- feeling proof and Vani se parey.

[arjun]

Murlis say that Brahma is Moon of knowledge

“जब कलियुग का अन्त आये तब भक्ति का भी अन्त आये, तब ही भगवान आकर मिले क्योंकि वही भक्ति का फल देने वाला है। उनको ज्ञान सूर्य कहा जाता है। ज्ञान चन्द्रमा, ज्ञान सूर्य और ज्ञान लकी सितारे। अच्छा ज्ञान सूर्य तो है बाप। फिर माता चाहिए ज्ञान चन्द्रमा। तो जिस तन में प्रवेश किया है वह हो गई ज्ञान चन्द्रमा माता और बाकी सब हैं बच्चे लकी सितारे। इस हिसाब से जगदम्बा भी लकी स्टार हो गई क्योंकि बच्चे ठहरे ना। स्टार्स में कोई सबमें तीखा भी होता है। वैसे यहाँ भी नम्बरवार हैं। वह हैं स्थूल आकाश के सूर्य चाँद और सितारे और यह है ज्ञान की बात। जैसे वह पानी की नदियां और यह है ज्ञान की नदियां, जो ज्ञान सागर से निकली हैं।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक ११.०१.०८, पृ.२)

“When the Iron Age ends, then Bhakti would also end; only then will God come and meet because He alone gives the fruits of Bhakti. He is called the Sun of Knowledge. The Moon of knowledge, the Sun of Knowledge and the lucky stars of knowledge. OK, the Father is the Sun of Knowledge. Then the mother should be the Moon of knowledge. So, the body in which He has entered is the Moon of knowledge mother and the rest of the children are lucky stars. In this way, Jagdamba is also a lucky star because she is also a child, isn’t she? Even among the stars one shines the most. Similarly, even here they are numberwise. Those are the Sun, the Moon and the stars of the sky and here it is a matter of knowledge. Just as they are the rivers of water and these are the rivers of knowledge, which have emerged from the ocean of knowledge.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 11.01.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

Murli says- Prajapita ka alag photo honaa chahiye = there should be separate photo of Prajapita. [sorry- i do not have date now]

Even if it exists it will apply to Prajapita, but as far as Brahma is concerned there are several Murlis which say that one should not keep Brahma's photos.

“बाप कहते हैं भारतवासियों को अपने धर्म का पता नहीं – कब और किसने स्थापन किया? कोई किस देवी को याद करते, कोई कृष्ण को, कोई गुरू को याद करते। गुरू का फोटो भी लगा देते हैं। तुम्हारा चित्र से काम नहीं। जिसका कोई चित्र नहीं है, वह है विचित्र। आत्मा विचित्र है। जैसे बाप विचित्र है वैसे बच्चे भी विचित्र हैं। आत्मा ही सुनती है। बाबा ने यह तन लोन लिया है। कहते हैं प्रकृति के आधार बिगर मैं ज्ञान कैसे दूं? राजयोग कैसे सिखलाऊं?“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २६.०८.०८, पृ. ३)

“The Father says – The Indians do not know about their religion – when and who established it? Some people remember some devi (female deity), some remember Krishna, some remember some guru. They also display the photo of the guru. You don’t have any connection with pictures. The one who does not have any picture is called vichitra. A soul is vichitra. Just as the Father is vichitra, children are vichitra too. The soul itself listens. Baba has taken this body on loan. He says – How can I give knowledge without the support of prakriti (nature/body)? How can I teach rajyog?”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 26.08.08, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

• "Baap kahtey hain tumko koi bhi chitra rakhney kee darkaar nahee. Kyaa tum ShivBaba ko nahee jaantey jo chitra rakhtey ho? Kya chitra rakhney say Yaad kar saktey ho? Baba jeeta hai fir bachchey chitra kyon rakhengey? Baap tumko gyaan dey raha hai fir chitra kya karengey? Boodhey hain Yaad bhool jaati hai isliye chitra diya jaataa hai. Baaki aur koi bhi dehdhaari ko Yaad kartey rahengey toh anth samay vahee Yaad aayega. Kuch na kuch rag hai toh vah tumhaarey peechey padega. Fir bhaley kitney bhi ShivBaba ke chitra rakho. Agar rag aur taraf hogi toh vah Yaad jaroor aayega. Isliye Baap kahtey hain bachchey poora nashtomoha ho jaao." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 26.12.07, pg 3&4)

• “The Father says – there is no need for you to keep any picture. Don’t you know ShivBaba that you keep (His) pictures? Can you remember (Him) by keeping (His) pictures? When Baba is alive, then why will children keep pictures? The Father is giving you knowledge, then what will you do with pictures? There are aged ones; they forget to remember (Baba), this is why picture is given. But if you keep remembering any other bodily being, then in the end his thoughts will only come to your mind. If there is attachment to some extent or the other, then he will chase you. Then you may keep any number of pictures of ShivBaba. If you have attachment for someone else, then he will certainly come to your mind. This is why the Father says – Children, become completely victorious over attachment.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 26.12.07, pg 3&4 published by BKs)

But- that implies god gives knowledge thorugh Brahma . but- god himself reads something and explains.....does not digest to me. OK, good.

God does not read. Nor does the soul of Ram read. It is the soul of Dada Lekhraj (Moon of knowledge depicted on Shankar's forehead) who reads the Murlis (scriptures) and Shiv clarifies.

And- much more questions arise. It is gyaan gagaayein (rivers of knowledge) that should flow and not the ocean (god). But in AIVV, it is the ocean(God) that moves/travels maximum.

It is to save Yagya money that ShivBaba travels himself. Instead of thousands of children coming from different corners of the country and abroad to Madhuban, if one ShivBaba travels to their doorstep, will it not save precious Yagya money?

It has been said in an Avyakt Vani - If you set up mini-Madhubans BapDada will come there. But Avyakt BapDada through Gulzar Dadi has not travelled anywhere except Abu or Abu Road even after many years of this declaration.

There is a song in the path of Bhakti - तेरे द्वार खड़ा भगवान - (God is standing at your door step) and even in the Murlis Baba says that you have found God sitting at home.

In AIVV Baba thinks so much about saving money whereas in BKWSU, lakhs and even crores of rupees are wasted on travelling by AC trains or aeroplanes. I remember that when Prakashmani Dadi died thousands of BKs wasted money travelling from all over the world to Mount Abu. Is it in accordance with Shrimat when Baba says every paisa of Yagya money is precious? I have just given one example (tip of the iceberg).

Debate will never end. You are here in the intention of doing service and even myself.

both of us agree that truth will win and also respect truth from inner side. so- Good and fine.
Hope we end with good mood. Thank you.

Thank you, too. :D