Who is Shiv and Who is ShivBaba? Are they different souls?

[mbbhat]

ShivBaba is point.

SM 7-2-81(3):- Kayi bachhon ko abhi tak Baap ka pooraa parichay mila nahin hai, jab tak takdeer khuley. Jab yah samjhe ki hum atma bindi samaan hain, ShivBaba BHI BINDI HAIN, hum bindi ko parampita parmatma bindi ko Yaad karna hai. Aisey samajh jab Yaad kare to vikarm vinaash ho. Baaki saakshaatkaar aadi may bindi ko dekhaa yah bhi Maya ka vighn hai. Khushi to hoti hai, parantu gyaan bhi chahiye na. -51-

= Some children have not yet received full introduction of Father till now, when luck opens. When they understand that we soul/s are similar to point, EVEN ShivBaba IS POINT, we point should remember the point who is God. When remembrance is done by this understanding sins get burnt…..

I will mention the said Murli points a little bit later.

[Surya_40]

Suprem Soul Shiv is bindi When Supreme bindi entered into Corporeal Body (Sakar) then Shiv Bindi became called shiv baba.
it is very simple to understand.

[mbbhat]

It is very simple to understand

Yes, I agree. But it does not satisfy PBKs! That is why this is being discussed here.

[mbbhat]

I will mention the said Murli points a little bit later.

I could not find all the Murli points. But found two.

1)SM 6-5-81(3):- Sirf Shiv kahne se ling hee Yaad aayega.
=If just shiv is said, (people) will get remembrance of ling.


2)SM 29-7-81(1):- Sirf ShivBaba kahne se samjhenge nahin. Isliye kaha jata hai BapDada.
== If just ShivBaba is said, they do not understand. Hence it is said, BapDada.

People will think of ling if just shiv is told. Hence Baba adds Father to make clear that Shiv is our Father. even then people will not understand who is this ShivBaba and where he is. so Baba uses the word BapDada.

Another Murli point which I had read says- many lowkik people have name Shiv. Hence just shiv is not enough.

[mbbhat]

SM 20-5-82(1):- Yah hai bhi rudr gyaan yagy. RUDR KAHA JATA HAI SHIV KO. Vah hee Rajyog sikhlaate hain. -23-

=This is Rudr gyaan yagy. RUDR IS SAID FOR SHIV. He only teaches Rajyog.

SM 19-5-82(2):- ShivBaba akshar shobha bhi deta hai. Rudrbaba nahin kahenge. Kahte hee hain ShivBaba. Yah bahut easy hai. Naam to aur bhi dher hain. Parantu yah accurate hai ShivBaba. ShivBaba maanaa bindi. Rudr maanaa bindi nahin. Bhal kahte bhi hain ShivBaba. Parantu samajhte kuch bhi nahin. ShivBaba aur saaligraam hain. -22-

= The word ShivBaba looks good. (People) do not say Rudrbaba. (They) say ShivBaba. It is very easy. There are many other names. But ShivBaba is accurate. ShivBaba means point. Rudr does not mean point. ...
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The first Murli point clearly says Shiv = Rudr.

Second Murli point says ShivBaba is point, hence disproves PBK's theory.

It also says Rudr is not point.
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What I feel from the above is-
The word meaning of Shiv is point, but word meaning of Rudr is not point. Because even in lowkik world, people believe Shiv means point (niraakaar = incorporeal), one who has nothing= nobody). But they do not belive the word Rudr to be incorporeal.

[mbbhat]

mbbhat wrote:- I will mention the said Murli points a little bit later.

some more Murli points are given below.

SM 9-11-82(1):- Bachche samajhte hain humaaraa behad ka Baap vah hai jisko ShivBaba kahte hain. KYONKI BAHUTON KE LOWKIK BAAP KAA NAAM SHIV HOTA HAI. Parantu vah behad kaa Baap nahin. -89

=Children understand that he is our unlimited Father who is called as ShivBaba. BECAUSE NAMES OF LOWKIK FATHERS OF MANY PEOPLE ALSO IS SHIV. But they are not unlimited Father.

SM 9-10-82(3):- Mujhe kan2 may thikkar bhittar may kah dete hain. Paththar ko poojaa ke liye rakhte hain. Paththar ko hee Shiv kahte hain. -14

= People say I am even in every particle. They keep stone to worship. They say Shiv for the stone itself.
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The following points say SHIV and RUDR are one and the same.

SM 6-2-82(3):- Oonch te oonchaa Bhagavaan ek hai. UNKAA NAM HAI SHIV. RUDR BHI KAHTE HAIN. Yah hai rudr gyaan yagy. Krishn gyaan yagy hotaa hee nahin. -47 [ShivBaba, yagy]

= highest of High is one God. His name is shiv. Even (he) is called as Rudr. ...

SM 20-5-82(1):- Yah hai bhi rudr gyaan yagy. RUDR KAHA JATA HAI SHIV KO. Vah hee Rajyog sikhlaate hain. -23- [ShivBaba, sp]

=This is Rudr gyaan yagy. RUDR IS SAID FOR SHIV. He only teaches Rajyog.

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SM 8-12- 82(1):- Rudr gyaan yagy bhi kahte hain. RUDR TO ShivBaba KO KAHA JATA HAI. -106

= They say rudr gyaan yagy. RUDR IS SAID FOR ShivBaba.

So Rudr = Shiv = ShivBaba

SM 24-12-82(2):- RUDY GYAAN YAGY YAH NAAM SHAASTRON MAY BHI HAI. RUDR NAAM LIKHAA HUVAA HAI. TAB RUDR BHI KAHNAA PADTAA HAI. VAASTAV MAY HAI SHIV.
-138-
= Rudr gyaan yagy this name is present in scriptures. THE NAME RUDR IS WRITTEN (THERE). HENCE (I) NEED TO SPEAK EVEN RUDR. ACTUALLY (IT) IS SHIV. -138-


Since in Bhaktimarg people use different names, Baba also needs to say those.

[shivsena]

AUM Shanti.
I am starting this new thread inorder to get clarity about Whether Shiv and ShivBaba are different souls? If ShivBaba is different soul, then why Shiv is mentioned also for that soul?
Sanjeev.

Dear sanjeev Bhai.

Different groups will have their own interpretations of the word "Shiv" and "ShivBaba".

For BKs 'shiv' and 'ShivBaba' are same ie. "nirakar incorporeal bindi".

PBKs believe that shiv is bindi (Supreme Soul) and ShivBaba is combination of shiv+prajapita(ie. Baba Dixit)

108 would believe that shiv is supreme pure consciousness(parampita ie supreme Father) , and ShivBaba is combination of supreme Father+ no. 1 soul (adi-shakti jagdamba) and that shiv and his shakti can never be seperated.

108 would believe that the words : ''parampita paramatma'' ... ''BapDada''...'' ALAF'' ... ''ShivBaba''... ''mat-pita'' ... and ''shivshakti'', all mean the same personality ie. no 1 shivshakti ie Mama.....but BKs and PBKs will have different opinions about the above terms and will never agree to the beliefs of 108.

shivsena.

[RudraPutra]

108 would believe that the words : ''parampita paramatma'' ... ''BapDada''...'' ALAF'' ... ''ShivBaba''... ''mat-pita'' ... and ''shivshakti'', all mean the same personality ie. no 1 shivshakti ie Mama.....but BKs and PBKs will have different opinions about the above terms and will never agree to the beliefs of 108.

...and u too are having same beliefs and hence you are one of the 108...congratulations!!!

[shivsena]

...and u too are having same beliefs and hence you are one of the 108...congratulations!!!

Dear rudraputra.

Avaykt Vani 6-12-69 says: "जितना बाप को प्रत्यक्ष करेंगे उतना खुद को प्रत्यक्ष करेंगे . बाप को प्रत्यक्ष करने से आप की प्रत्यक्षता बाप के साथ है ही ."
"jitna Bap ko pratyaksh karenge utna khud ko pratyaksh karenge. Bap ko pratyaksh karne se aap ki pratyakshataa Bap ke saath hai hi."

[" How much you reveal the Father (combined with mother ie no. 1 shivshakti), you (108) will reveal yourself (as shivshaktis).
Revelation of Father(combined with mother ie. no 1 shivshakti) will reveal you(108 shivshaktis) as well. "]

The above Vani point clearly describes that those souls who reveal the combined mat-pita(no. 1 shivshakti--Mama jagdamba) will automatically reveal themselves also as shivshaktis.

shivsena.