Who is Shiv and Who is ShivBaba? Are they different souls?

[RudraPutra]

Can you write at least two sentences just before this Murli point? Otherwise, I do not think this point can have full/real value.

....i have no objection to whatever you think....but right now i am able to provide you this much only....

Shiv performs his duty even in Bhaktimarg by giving visions.

....shiv don't perform duty anywhere other than Sangamyug....nothing can be done from Paramdham either in Satyug or treta or dwapar or Kaliyug.....that is why he has to come here in Sangamyug....

when a soul realizes/thinks/loves/remembers/prays Shiv, Shiv becomes ShivBaba for it. Even in Bhakti, people call ShivBaba.

....this is what i am saying that in Bhaktimarg only Hindu's pray with name SHIV,right and Hindus believe in corporeal form and for them the corporeal form is SHIV-Shankar.....no one prays SHIV in hinduism as point of light.....that SHIV-Shankar is corporeal form of SHIV who is titled as ShivBaba in Sangamyug.....

Whenever one remembers, thinks, prays Shiv, Shiv responds either in gyaanmarg or in Bhaktimarg.
This is as though there is len-den(giving and taking) between God and the child/devotee. Under such condition, act/role of Shiv itself is called as ShivBaba.

....hey this doesn't stands anywhere....SHIV responds only in Sangamyug.....if he had responded in Bhaktimarg why it is said that "Bhaktimarg MURDABAAD" ? why it is said that "Bhakti se durgati"(downfall via Bhakti)....no len den takes place between SHIV and his devotee/child other than Sangamyug....

Else, there is no difference between Shiv and ShivBaba.

"Jo sampurn nirvikari hokar jaate hai unke mandir banakar vikari log unki jakar pooja karte hai."-------MU 16.10.73
"Those who become complete viceless their temples are built and viscious people go there to worship them"
....if this is so why somnath mandir is built? do you think SHIV becomes viceless or viscious anytime?...it is the corporeal form of SHIV who gets viscious and becomes viceless and is worshipped in form of SOMNATH....and who is somnath?...in earlier Murli it has been quoted.....so there is difference betwen SHIV and ShivBaba....

"SOMNATH ka mandir kitna bada hai.Kitna sajaate hai....Atma ki sajawat nahi hai vaise parmatma ki bhi sajawat nahi hai.Vah bhi bindi hai.Baaki jo bhi sajawat hai vah shariron ki hai"-----------MU 5.7.75
"Temple of SOMNATH is so big.How much is decorated...Soul has no decoration similarly Supreme Soul(SHIV) has no decoration.It is also a point.Rest all whatever decoration is there,it is of body "
.....How much SOMNATH is decorated? it is possible only if SOMNATH is in corporeal form and not only point....so it is SHIV BABA and not SHIV,the point.......even ARJUN Bhai had earlier mentioned about the meaning of BABA through a Murli point....

[sachkhand]

AUM Shanti.

....i have never said so i suppose...i might have said that Brahma is banni of ShivBaba and not of Shiv....so ShivBaba becomes banna of Shiv....i might have asked you who is banna of Brahma?

Post: Who is Maya ??? in PBK group. On 08 Oct 2009,

Shiv has only one relation with each and every soul that is the relation of Father and children....yes of course when Shiv enters a corporeal media he plays different role and depending on that he is related to children either as Father or mother or teacher or saajan etc....So Brahma is banni....that is true but who is Banna?... Shiv+Baba=ShivBaba ...

What I want to know is that in AIVV whenever ShivBaba is mentioned it is referred to Virendra Dev Dixit which I do not understand how?
So I wanted to know whether they consider Virendra Dev Dixit as ShivBaba or Shiv in Virendra Dev Dixit (according to their belief) as ShivBaba.
Is there any proof for Shiv is playing part through Virendra Dev Dixit.
Virendra Dev Dixit himself has never accepted it. Then how did the members of AIVV came to know about it? Has Shiv anytime introduced Himself through Virendra Dev Dixit?
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

[sachkhand]

AUM Shanti.

"Unki atma ka hi naam Shiv hai.Vah kab badalta nahi.Sharir badalte hai to naam bhi badal jaate.Jaise Brahma se Shankar,phir Vishnu"----------MU 24.1.75

I think the above is for the subtle deities who come along with Shiv and for which He is called Trimurti Shiv.
If not how is it that Shiv becomes Vishnu? Does Shiv comes in Satyug?
Also it is said that neither ShivBaba nor Shankar can be called as Prajapita. How is is that ShivBaba of AIVV is also Prajapita as well as Shankar. It needs more understanding to clarify all this. The points and questions raised by AIVV are correct but not as explained by them. Because their explanation raises many more questions which are unanswered.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

[mbbhat]

"PRAJAPITA Brahma vah dono to naami graami hai"-----------MU 19.3.68
"PRAJAPITA Brahma they both are famous"
why they both?

Dear Soul,
I will wait for the other two sentences. I request you to send me a private message if I fail to respond to that.

But today I got a new thought.
The above Murli point need not mean that there are two peronalities. It can also mean like this- both the words/names Prajapita and Brahma are famous. So- I feel one cannot conclude that Prajapita and Brahma are two different personalities by the above Murli point!

I will come to the topic of Shiv/ShivBaba with Murli points a little bit later.

[arjun]

So I wanted to know whether they consider Veerendra Dev Dixit as ShivBaba or Shiv in Veerendra Dev Dixit (according to their belief) as ShivBaba.
Is there any proof for Shiv is playing part through Veerendra Dev Dixit.
Veerendra Dev Dixit himself has never accepted it. Then how did the members of AIVV came to know about it? Has Shiv anytime introduced Himself through Veerendra Dev Dixit?

PBKs consider Shiv in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit as ShivBaba. The proofs are available in the form of Murlis and Avyakt Vanis and the biggest proof is the advance Godly knowledge being given through his body. This is Father's part being played by Shiv. So, like the role of Mother played through Brahma Baba, you cannot expect saakshaatkaar (visions) as a proof of Shiv's entry in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit.

Shiv does not announce through the body of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit that I am playing the role of Father through this body of Virendra Dev Dixit.

[shivshankar]

Shiv does not announce through the body of Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit that I am playing the role of Father through this body of Veerendra Dev Dixit.

Looks like God became more humble and hidden from the time of Brahma Baba:)

[RudraPutra]

What I want to know is that in AIVV whenever ShivBaba is mentioned it is referred to Veerendra Dev Dixit which I do not understand how?
So I wanted to know whether they consider Veerendra Dev Dixit as ShivBaba or Shiv in Veerendra Dev Dixit (according to their belief) as ShivBaba.

....PBK's believe Veerendra Dev Dixit as SHIV's permanent Chariot and they both are termed as SHIV BABA....

Is there any proof for Shiv is playing part through Veerendra Dev Dixit.

....in Murli it has been said
"Maloom kaise padta hai ki inmein Baap Bhagwan hai? Jab knowledge dete hai. Bachchon ko baith samjhaate hai."-----MU 27.10.74
"How do you know that Father God is in them?When knowledge is given.Explains the children by sitting."
....this is the only proof,dear....

Veerendra Dev Dixit himself has never accepted it. Then how did the members of AIVV came to know about it? Has Shiv anytime introduced Himself through Veerendra Dev Dixit?

in Murli it has been said that
"Baap bhi gupt,knowledge bhi gupt,tumhaara saara purusharth bhi gupt"------MU 13.9.70
"Father also incognito,knowledge also covert,your all purusharth(manhood) also incognito"
....so when SHIV plays the role of Father through his permanent Chariot,he keeps himself in covert.....even i t is said
"Tum aise nahi kahenge mujh Baap ko Yaad karo.Tum baap ka gyaan sunaavenge.Haan kahenge ki 'BABA AISE KEHTE HAI'.Yeh baatein badi achchi reeti samjhaate hai."--------MU 1.7.68
....why would we say mujh baap ko Yaad karenge?....this doesn't make any sense for us.....yes this statement is directly applicable to the permanent Chariot of SHIV i.e Ram's soul.....even Ram cannot say 'mujh baap ko Yaad kar'....so how he would say that he is Father?....he is also bounded by Murli concerns.....even in Murli it has been said that "Apan ko bhagwan kehne waale HIRANYAKASHYAP hote hai"

[RudraPutra]

I think the above is for the subtle deities who come along with Shiv and for which He is called Trimurti Shiv.
If not how is it that Shiv becomes Vishnu? Does Shiv comes in Satyug?

....different role gets different tittle.....in Murli it has been said that "BRAHMA SO Vishnu"....so this is first applicable for PRAJAPITA BRAHMA.....Father is said as passed only when his child is seen passed.....if child doesn't gets pass,Father is pointed as the one responsible.....so till the ardhchandrama on forehead of Shankar becomes poornachandrama....even Ram's soul is termed as purusharthi(only on the sense of completeness of his child's stage)....when they get completed alongwith their supporting souls(Lakshmi and Saraswati)....then they play role which is totally different and is named as Vishnu....
....even about the subtle dieties concept is little bit messy.....as such subtleness is stage of soul....phase between corporeal and incorporeal.....at this stage churn level increases or actually churning happens in this stage.....now this subtle churning is distinguished or categorised in three groups.....subtle churning of BRAHMA(lowest),subtle churning of Vishnu(mediocre) and subtle churning of Shankar(highest or topmost)....but finally they are here not any where else....that is why baba says "Mujhe is patit duniya mein aana padta hai"....Subtle Region is not patit

Also it is said that neither ShivBaba nor Shankar can be called as Prajapita. How is is that ShivBaba of AIVV is also Prajapita as well as Shankar. It needs more understanding to clarify all this. The points and questions raised by AIVV are correct but not as explained by them. Because their explanation raises many more questions which are unanswered.

yes of course.....i have answered this earlier also
different stages of soul are the reason of different outputs which have different results...
1)Prajapita is sakari stage....corporeal stage
2)Shankar is akari-nirakari stage.....subtle to incorporeal stage(not 100% when compared to SHIV's stage)
3)ShivBaba is incorporeal stage of SHIV in corporeal form
....from above it is true that ShivBaba as well as Shankar cannot be called as PRAJAPITA.....this means the actual role of Shankar and ShivBaba and PRAJAPITA differs in stages and differs in output result hence their name too differs.....name and fame differs according to act
for example.....suppose i am studying in particular college,at the same time i am also working there for part time as handler of lab and in evening time i am also teaching for particular group of students.....now at different time for my different work you will tittle me with different names.....now is it possible me to say as 'student' as 'lab incharge' or as 'tutor'?....yes it is possible....this is what it is meant for ShivBaba,PRAJAPITA as well as for Shankar and many other roles too....

[mbbhat]

1)SM 2-2-71(4):-Neeche likha jaataa hai Baapdada. BAAP ARTHAATH ShivBaba. Daadaa kahenge Brahma. Pahle toh Daadaa ke bane. Tab varsaa paa sake. Varsaa hai ShivBaba kaa. -67

=BapDada is written below. BAAP MEANS ShivBaba. Dada is said to Brahma. First you became that of Dada. Then you can get property. Property is of ShivBaba.
[so both bap and baba mean same]

SM 15-5-81(3):- ShivBaba, Brahma daadaa donon iakatthe hain. Isliye kahte hain Baapdaadaa. Varsa ShivBaba se milta hai. Agar daadaa (se) kahenge to baaki Shiv ke paas kyaa hai? Varsa ShivBaba se milta hai Brahma dwara. -24-
= ShivBaba, Brahma Dada, both are together. Hence it is said Baapdaada.
[both are together. This implies ShivBaba should be just a point].

2)SM 25-4-77(3):- Yaad bhi ShivBaba ko karnaa hai. Rath ko nahin Yaad karnaa hai. Sakar ko Yaad nahin karnaa hai. Bhaktimaarg may tum Sakar ko Yaad karte aaye ho. Ab niraakaar Baba ki pahchaan milee hai. Niraakaar Baba srushti ke aadi, madhy, anth kaa raaz samjhaa rahe hain. – 169

= one should remember ShivBaba. Chariot should not be remembered. One should not remember corporeal. In Bhaktimarg, you have remembered Sakar. Now, (you have) received introduction of incorporeal Baba. Incorporeal Baba is explaining secrets of beginning, middle and ends of creation.
[See – incorporeal is also called as Baba].

3)SM 22-2-77(1):- ShivBaba hai to hai niraakaar. Jab tak ShivBaba ko bhi sharir na mile to ShivBaba bhee kyaa karenge. Vo to hai niraakaar. Niraakaar kee hee mahimaa gaate hain. Vo hai oonch te oonch ranevaalaa. Oonch te oonch unkaa thaavn hai. Kounsaa thaavn? Mool_vatan. Phir BVS kaa kounsaa thaavn hai? Sookshmvatan. Phir Jagadamba. Inkaa thaav hai yah sthool srushti.

= ShivBaba IS INCORPOREAL. UNTIL ShivBaba GETS BODY, WHAT CAN EVEN ShivBaba DO? He is niraakaar. People praise that of niraakaar itself.

[ so ShivBaba is one who has no body].

4)SM 22-2-77(1,2):- Yah jo hasti hai jismey PARAMPITA PARAMATMA pravesh karte hain. KITNEE OONCHEE HASTI HAI. Abhi tum jaante ho ShivBaba BRAHMA KEE HASTI KE SIVAAYE AUR KISEE MAY AA HEE NAHIN SAKTE. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA dwaaraa hee PARAMPITA PARAMATMA manushy srushti rachte hain. Jab2 bhaarath may bahut dukh bhrashthaachaar hote hai, yah koun samjhaate hain? PARAMPITA PARAMATMA IS HASTI SE SAMJHAATE HAIN. IS BRAHMA ATHVAA BHAAGEERATH BIGAR KUCH KAR HEE NAHIN SAKTE. KOYI TO CHAHIYE NA. YAH HASTI ShivBaba KEE HAI. YAH NA HO TO TUM ShivBaba SE VARSAA LE NA SAKO. 73, 73-

= ... ShivBaba cannot come in any other body except Brahma….This body is that of ShivBaba. If this is not there, you cannot get property from ShivBaba.
[again implies ShivBaba is bodyless]

5)SM 28-1-77(1):- Oonch te oonch ek bhagavaan hai. Unkaa naam hee hai Shiv. Gaate bhi hain Shivaaya namah. SHIV KO HAMESHAA ShivBaba KAHAA JAATAA HAI. PP Shiv dwaaraa pahle2 yah rachnaa rachte hain. Rachaita hai ek. Rachnaa bhi vaastav may ek hai. Ek hee duniyaa hai. Rachna duniyaa ko, rachaitaa baap ko kahaa jaata hai. -37 [twisting]
= .....SHIV IS ALWAYS CALLED AS ShivBaba…..

[Shiv= ShivBaba]

6)SM 24-6-73(2):- Tum bachche jaante ho hum ShivBaba ke sammukh baithe hain. ShivBaba KAA KOYI AAKAAR SAAKAAR NAHIN HAI. Vah niraakaar inkey hee sharir may aate hain. Inmey aakar batlaate hain yah apne janmon ko nahin jante hain. Tum bachche bhi nahin jaante thay. Abhi tum jaante ho. 83-

= You children know we are sitting in front of ShivBaba. THERE IS NEITHER AAKAAR(SUBTLE) NOR Sakar(CORPOREAL) OF ShivBaba…...
[self explanatory]

7)SM 2-1-75(3):- Ab purushottam ban_ne ki Sangamyug par Krishn kahaan se aayaa? Naam roop to badal jata hai na. Aise nahin ki Krishn hee kaayam hai. Krishn ki atmaa hee kaayam hai, yah bhi nahin kahenge. Is srushti may hate (sadaa) kaayam koyi cheez hai nahin. Sadaa kaayam to ek ShivBaba hee hai. Baaki to sabko neeche aanaa hee hai. Parantu vah bhi Sangam par aate hain. Sabhi ko vaapis le jaate hain. -3-

= ... The always constant/stable thing is just ShivBaba. All others descend below. But even he descends in Confluence Age. He takes all back.

[ShivBaba is constant. So he should be point. Because any corporeal will get into change]

8)SM 9-7-81(1):- Asal may atma pavitr muktidham may rahnevali hai jahaan ShivBaba BHI RAHTE HAIN. Ab ShivBaba PPB. Ek ko Baap, EK KO DAADAA KAHENGE. Yah to tum jante ho. ... ShivBaba aur daadaa ikatte hain. ShivBaba ismey virajmaan hain. -109

= Actually pure soul remains in muktidham where ShivBaba also resides. One is called as Father, the other is Dada- you know this. ...…ShivBaba and Dada are together.

[ShivBaba resides in Paramdham. So he should be a point]

9)SM 1-5-79(2):- Bhaktimarg may bhi samajhte hain hum ShivBaba ke baney, isliye kaashi kalvat khate hain. Bhaktimarg MAY JAB KAASHI KALVAT KHAAYE SHARIR CHOD DETE TO UNKEY PAAP SAB KAT JATE HAIN. Phir bhi vaapis to koyi jaa nahin saktaa. Oopar se sab aa jaavenge, tab vinaash hoga. -57 [WOT, LM, PM,CP]
=Even in Bhaktimarg, people think let us belong to ShivBaba. Hence they do kashi kalvat(sacrificing body in the name of shiv). .....

[So Baba uses word ShivBaba even for Bhaktimarg or people use that word].

10)SM 1-5-79(2):- Baba kahne se hi varse ki khushboo aati hai. SHIV KO HAMESHA BABA KAHA JATA HAI. ShivBaba hi sadgatidata hai. -57

= SHIV IS ALWAYS CALLED AS ShivBaba!
[self expanatory]

11)SM 21-10-77(3):- Yah sab tumko koun samjhaa rahe hain? ShivBaba BRAHMA Dada KE BHRUKUTI KE BEECH MAY BAITH TUMKO SAMJHAATE HAIN. Jaise unki aaatmaa bhrukuti may baithee hai. Zaroor unkey baajoo may baithaa hogaa na. -76
=Who explains these to you? ShivBaba SITS IN FOREHEAD OF BRAHMA DAADAA and explains to you. Like his soul is seated at forehead. Definitely (even ShivBaba) would be seated just next to him, is it not?

[ShivBaba should be a point. Then only he can sit in forehead].

12)SM 7-1-81(1):- Yah bhi jaantey ho, behad ke Baap kaa bhi part hai. Creator, director hai na. Sab maantey hain, toh zaroor unki koyi to activity hogi na. Unko aadmi nahin kaha jata. UNKO TO SHARIR NAHIN HAI. Baaki sabko yaa manushy, yaa devtaa kahenge. ShivBaba ko to na manushy, na devtaa kah saktey hain. KYONKI UNKO SHARIR HEE NAHIN. Yah toh temporary liyaa hai. Khud kahte hain meethey2 bachchon ko main sharir bigar Rajyog kaise sikhlaavoon? -10

= (You) know that even unlimited Father also has part. (He is) creator, director, is it not? All believe. So there should/will be some activity of him, is it not? He cannot be called as human being. HE HAS NO BODY. All others are called as humans or deities. ShivBaba can neither be called as human or deity. BECAUSE HE HAS NO BODY AT ALL. This is taken for temporary. (He himself) says sweet2 children, how can I teach you Rajyog without body? -10

13)SM 8-1-81(1):- BRAHMA BABA ShivBaba KA RATH HAI. Donon kaa ikaththaa part chaltaa. Ismey zaraa bhi samshay nahin aanaa chahiye. -11-[ShivBaba, rath]

= BRAHMA BABA IS Chariot OF ShivBaba. Parts of both occur together/simultaneously. You should not get doubt even a little in this.

14)SM 8-1-81(1):- Brahma hai nahin toh ShivBaba bolenge kaise?- 11-

=Without Brahma how can ShivBaba speak?

15)SM 17-12-72(2):- Bhaktimarg may mehnat bahut karte hain. Milte hain bhugude(chane). ShivBaba par bhal Sharir bhi hom dete hain to bhi bhugude milti hai. Varsa to mil nahin sakta. Kashi kalvat khaate samay vikarm karke vinaash honge. Phir shuru ho jayenge. Toh bhaavanaa ke bhugude huye na.

= .....In Bhaktimarg, even if one sacrifices his body to ShivBaba, he will not get just groundnuts(hope translation is OK). One cannot get property. .....
[the word ShivBaba used in Bhaktimarg. In Bhaktimarg, shiv has no body. So he is just a point]

16)SM 4-2-71(3):- Tum bachchon ko koun padhaa rahe hain? Vah nirakar ShivBaba.

=Who teaches you children? That incorporeal ShivBaba.

17)SM 4-5-79(1):-Har cheez pahle satopradhan hoti hai. Bhakti bhi pahle satopradhan thi jab ShivBaba ko Yaad karte thay.
=Everything will be initially satopradhaan. Even Bhakti was satopradhaan when (devotees were) remembering ShivBaba.

[satopradhaan Bhakti means remembering/worshipping incorporeal, not the body(Baba calls worshipping body as bhoot pooja. So again ShivBaba means point].

18)SM 9-7-70(4):- Ram koyi patit_pavan thode hi hai. Haan, ShivBaba patit_pavan hai. Unko Yaad karna hai. ShivBaba hai hi sab atmaavon ka Baap.

= Ram is not patit-pavan. Yes, ShivBaba is patit-pavan. ShivBaba IS Father OF ALL THE SOULS.

19)SM 25-9-73(4):- Baap kitna beloved hai. Baap bachchon ko kitna love karte hain. Kitni khaatri karta hun. Phir bhi bachche chod dete hain. ..... Phaarkati karne may deri nahin karte hain….. Main chitr to lagaavunga. Tumko Bruhaspati ki dasha hai. Zaroor dashayein badalti rahti hain. BapDada par to love chaahiye na. ShivBaba PAAS JAAVO, KHAAVO, PIVO, NIRAKAR KO BOLO HUMKO KHILAVO. UNKO HAATH KAHAAN SE AAYE. To baap se bahut love hona chahiye.

= How much beloved Father is! How much the Father loves children! Even then children leave Father. ..... they do not take much time to divorce. ..... one should have love towards BapDada, is it not? GET NEAR TO ShivBaba, EAT, DRINK. TELL THE INCORPOREAL TO FEED YOU. Where is hand for him? ...

20)SM 5-11-73(1):- 5 vikar stree may, 5 vikar purush may yahi Ravan sampraday huye. To yah NAYI bat huyi na. Swarg bananevala hai P Paramatma. Jisko Ram kahte hain. Narak bananevala hai Ravan. Ravan ka chitr banakar varsh2 jalate hain. Manushy marta hai tho phir thode hi unka epheeji dekhne may aayega. Vah atma jakar doosra sharir leti hain. (GM). Features aadi badal jate hain. Yah to Ravan ko vahi features varsh2 banate aur jalate hain. VASTAV MAY JAISE NIRAKAR ShivBaba HAI, UNKA KOYI FEATURES NAHIN. Vaise Ravan ka bhi koyi features nahin hain. Yah to vikar hai. [53]

= .....In fact, like the incorporeal ShivBaba does not have any feature, even Ravan also does not have any features. This is vices.


21)SM 26-6-81(1):- ShivBaba kahte hain main temporary jiv atma banta hun. So bhi tumhaare maaphik nahin banta. Main is jeev may pravesh karta hun apna parichay dene. Nahin to parichay kaise miley? Baap ne samjhaya hai ruhani Baap ek hee hai jisko ShivBaba va Bhagavaan kahte hain.

= ShivBaba says, I become temporary living soul. Even then not like you. I enter in this body to give my introduction. Else how to get introduction? Father has explained- SPIRITUAL Father IS JUST ONE WHO IS ALSO CALLED AS ShivBaba OR BHAGAVAAN(GOD).

22)SM 28-6-81(3):- ShivBaba ke photo to nikaal na sake. Bindi hai na.
=ShivBaba’s photo cannot be taken. (He) is point, is it not!?

23)SM 1-7-81(3):- Atma kahti hai yah mera sharir hai. Main Prime Minister hun. Aatma Sharir ke saath na ho to bol na sake. ShivBaba BHI HAI NIRAKAR. UNKO bhi bolne ke liye karmendriyon kaa aadhaar lena padta hai. Isliye dikhate hain mukh se ganga bahtee hai. Ab Shiv to hai bindi. UNKO mukh kahaan se aayaa? To jismay aakaar baith_te hain us_se yah Gyan gangaa bahaate hain.

= Soul says- this is my body. I am Prime minister. If the soul is not with the body, it cannot speak. ShivBaba IS ALSO INCORPOREAL. EVEN HE ALSO NEEDS SUPPORT OF ORGANS TO SPEAK. Hence it is shown ganga flows from mouth. Now- shiv is point. How did he get mouth? So- in whom he enter and sits, he makes ganga to flow from there.

[ShivBaba needs support of organs means he has no body]

24)SM 22-7-81(2):- Bhagavaan ko kaha jata hai Baba. ShivBaba hai to angrezi may bhi kahte hain Godfather.
=Bhagavaan(God) is called as Baba. In English he is called as Godfather.

25)SM 25-7-81(2):- Practical may tum dekhte ho kaise NIRAAKAAR BABA ne rudr gyaan yagyu rachaa hai. Sakar TO KUCH KAR NA SAKE. [PG NO. 133-]

=Practically you are see how INCORPOREAL BABA has established rudr Gyan yagy. THE CORPOREAL CANNOT DO ANYTHING!

26)SM 26-2-77(1,2):- Ghadi2 apne ko dehi abhimaani samjho. Tab Baap ko bhi Yaad kar sako. Aise baap ke saath badaa regard se chalnaa pade. Parantu saadhaaran hone kaaran vo regard nahin rahtaa. Samajhte bhi hain vo kaalon kaa kaal hai. YAH ShivBaba JISKO BAAPDAADAA KAHTE HO YAH SABKO SAATH le jaavenge. Kitnaa unkaa bhaari part hai. Sabse oonch te oonch part milaa huvaa hai. Jisko saari duniyaa Yaad kartee hai. Atma kyaa cheez hai. Atma ko to jaan_naa chahiye na. -80

= At every step consider yourself to be soul conscious. One should have very high regard with such a Father. But since he is ordinary, (children) do not keep that regard. (Children) know that he is kaalon kaa kaal(= death of deaths). This ShivBaba to whom you call BapDada, this will take all together. How great his part is!
Note:- Sometimes baba says in Murli- apne ko atma samajh ek baap ko Yaad karo. = Consider yourself as soul and remember one Father.

Sometimes Baba says- remember ShivBaba.

So does not this mean both Baap and ShivBaba are one and the same? Or does not it mean there is no need to differentiate them at least in remembrance? If they are different, then how can our remembrance be stable?

[RudraPutra]

1)SM 2-2-71(4):-Neeche likha jaataa hai Baapdada. BAAP ARTHAATH ShivBaba. Daadaa kahenge Brahma. Pahle toh Daadaa ke bane. Tab varsaa paa sake. Varsaa hai ShivBaba kaa. -67

=BapDada is written below. BAAP MEANS ShivBaba. Dada is said to Brahma. First you became that of Dada. Then you can get property. Property is of ShivBaba.
[so both bap and Baba mean same]

....sorry for BAAPDADA it is said that BAAP is said to ShivBaba and not for SHIV.....still it is uncleared from your sense..
yes we first became Brahma's child,we came to know who our Dada i.e big brother is(from corporeal point of view)....and afterwards about ShivBaba our Father....

SM 15-5-81(3):- ShivBaba, Brahma daadaa donon iakatthe hain. Isliye kahte hain Baapdaadaa. Varsa ShivBaba se milta hai. Agar daadaa (se) kahenge to baaki Shiv ke paas kyaa hai? Varsa ShivBaba se milta hai Brahma dwara. -24-
= ShivBaba, Brahma Dada, both are together. Hence it is said Baapdaada.
[both are together. This implies ShivBaba should be just a point].

no it doesn't imply that ShivBaba is just point....
agar Dada kahenge toh SHIV ke paas kya hai?....so no Dada and no shiv....it is ShivBaba...lekin maataon ko aage rakhte hai....so we get varsa from ShivBaba via BRAHMA....

2)SM 25-4-77(3):- Yaad bhi ShivBaba ko karnaa hai. Rath ko nahin Yaad karnaa hai. Sakar ko Yaad nahin karnaa hai. Bhaktimaarg may tum Sakar ko Yaad karte aaye ho. Ab niraakaar Baba ki pahchaan milee hai. Niraakaar Baba srushti ke aadi, madhy, anth kaa raaz samjhaa rahe hain. – 169
= one should remember ShivBaba. Chariot should not be remembered. One should not remember corporeal. In Bhaktimarg, you have remembered Sakar. Now, (you have) received introduction of incorporeal Baba. Incorporeal Baba is explaining secrets of beginning, middle and ends of creation.
[See – incorporeal is also called as Baba].

....ShivBaba ko Yaad karna hai....shiv ko nahi.....sirf rath ko nahin Yaad karna hai.....rath mein saarthi ko Yaad karna hai..
sirf Sakar ko Yaad nahi karna hai.....Sakar mein nirakar ko Yaad karna hai....ab nirakar + baba ki pehchaan milee hai ...similar to what you say as BAAP + Dada....

"Abhi tum bachche hi jaante ho ki BABA aaya hua hai.Kalp 2 baap aate hai.Pukaarte bhi hai 'Tum maat-pita'; parantu iska arth toh koi bhi nahi samajhte,nirakar baap ke liye samajh lete hai."--------MU 5.2.95

"Achcha Sakar bigar nirakar ko Yaad karke dikhaao? kya tumko gyaan prerna se milega?Phir mere paas aaye hi kyon ho?"----------MU 2.9.02

"Behad ka baap hai nirakar.Vah jab tak Sakar mein na aaye tab tak baap se varsa kaise mile?"------------MU 21.1.00

3)SM 22-2-77(1):- ShivBaba hai to hai niraakaar. Jab tak ShivBaba ko bhi sharir na mile to ShivBaba bhee kyaa karenge. Vo to hai niraakaar. Niraakaar kee hee mahimaa gaate hain. Vo hai oonch te oonch ranevaalaa. Oonch te oonch unkaa thaavn hai. Kounsaa thaavn? Mool_vatan. Phir BVS kaa kounsaa thaavn hai? Sookshmvatan. Phir Jagadamba. Inkaa thaav hai yah sthool srushti.

= ShivBaba IS INCORPOREAL. UNTIL ShivBaba GETS BODY, WHAT CAN EVEN ShivBaba DO? He is niraakaar. People praise that of niraakaar itself.
[ so ShivBaba is one who has no body].

Yes, when we say ShivBaba it is incorporeal SHIV in corporeal media...together they become ShivBaba...fully in control of SHIV....but the soul of corporeal Chariot(Ram) follows three stages.....saakari(corporeal),aakari(subtle) and nirakari(incorporeal)... when Ram's soul stays in stage other than SAKARI(corporeal) or when Ram plays a role of aakari(subtle-time of churning) and of nirakari(incorporeal-stage of Yaad),this practical stage of SHIV+BABA is termed as nirakara with no Chariot as such....which means stage of detachment from Chariot.....mahima toh nirakar ki hai....thats true....

4)SM 22-2-77(1,2):- Yah jo hasti hai jismey PARAMPITA PARAMATMA pravesh karte hain. KITNEE OONCHEE HASTI HAI. Abhi tum jaante ho ShivBaba Brahma KEE HASTI KE SIVAAYE AUR KISEE MAY AA HEE NAHIN SAKTE. PRAJAPITA Brahma dwaaraa hee PARAMPITA PARAMATMA manushy srushti rachte hain. Jab2 bhaarath may bahut dukh bhrashthaachaar hote hai, yah koun samjhaate hain? PARAMPITA PARAMATMA IS HASTI SE SAMJHAATE HAIN. IS Brahma ATHVAA BHAAGEERATH BIGAR KUCH KAR HEE NAHIN SAKTE. KOYI TO CHAHIYE NA. YAH HASTI ShivBaba KEE HAI. YAH NA HO TO TUM ShivBaba SE VARSAA LE NA SAKO. 73, 73-

= ... ShivBaba cannot come in any other body except Brahma….This body is that of ShivBaba. If this is not there, you cannot get property from ShivBaba.
[again implies ShivBaba is bodyless]

"Drama mein jiska part hai unmein hi pravesh karte hai aur uska naam BRAHMA rakhte hai.....Agar vah doosre mein aave toh bhi unka naam BRAHMA rakhna pade"----------MU 8.3.83
....so BRAHMA becomes the name given to character where SHIV has entered in Chariot.....but if Chariot is not called as BRAHMA, that means there is no SHIV in that Chariot.....so no varsa.....is Gulzar Dadi called BRAHMA?....plzzzzzzz explain me in detail....

5)SM 28-1-77(1):- Oonch te oonch ek bhagavaan hai. Unkaa naam hee hai Shiv. Gaate bhi hain Shivaaya namah. Shiv KO HAMESHAA ShivBaba KAHAA JAATAA HAI. PP Shiv dwaaraa pahle2 yah rachnaa rachte hain. Rachaita hai ek. Rachnaa bhi vaastav may ek hai. Ek hee duniyaa hai. Rachna duniyaa ko, rachaitaa baap ko kahaa jaata hai. -37 [twisting]
= ....Shiv IS ALWAYS CALLED AS ShivBaba…..

[Shiv= ShivBaba][/color]

....SHIV ko hamesha ShivBaba kaha jaata hai....kyonki SHIV ki pooja Sakar BABA dwara hi hoti hai...so SHIV never gets manifested in form of point....but SHIV's incorporeal stage will manifested through his permanent Chariot of Ram hence only shiv is never called....SHIV is always called as ShivBaba....

6)SM 24-6-73(2):- Tum bachche jaante ho hum ShivBaba ke sammukh baithe hain. ShivBaba KAA KOYI AAKAAR SAAKAAR NAHIN HAI. Vah niraakaar inkey hee sharir may aate hain. Inmey aakar batlaate hain yah apne janmon ko nahin jante hain. Tum bachche bhi nahin jaante thay. Abhi tum jaante ho. 83-

= You children know we are sitting in front of ShivBaba. THERE IS NEITHER AAKAAR(SUBTLE) NOR Sakar(CORPOREAL) OF ShivBaba…...
[self explanatory]

...definitely it is self explanatory.....i told you ShivBaba is incorporeal SHIV in corporeal form.....that SHIV although been in body is always incorporeal.....never ever comes in aakar(subtle) or Sakar(corporeal)...

7)SM 2-1-75(3):- Ab purushottam ban_ne ki Sangamyug par Krishn kahaan se aayaa? Naam roop to badal jata hai na. Aise nahin ki Krishn hee kaayam hai. Krishn ki atmaa hee kaayam hai, yah bhi nahin kahenge. Is srushti may hate (sadaa) kaayam koyi cheez hai nahin. Sadaa kaayam to ek ShivBaba hee hai. Baaki to sabko neeche aanaa hee hai. Parantu vah bhi Sangam par aate hain. Sabhi ko vaapis le jaate hain. -3-

= ... The always constant/stable thing is just ShivBaba. All others descend below. But even he descends in Confluence Age. He takes all back.

[ShivBaba is constant. So he should be point. Because any corporeal will get into change]

'is srushti mein' means what?....this corporeal srushti.....do you think bindi or point SHIV always remain in this corporeal srushti?...it is ShivBaba(implied to Chariot of SHIV)....one who is in corporeal form always remain in this world in constant(compared to all rest souls)....that is why in Murli it is said that
"Vaastav mein mandir hona chahiye ek ShivBaba ka.Vahi nimitt bana hua hai patiton ko pavan banane ke liye"-------MU 1.8.73
....shiv patit se pavan banata hai lekin nimitt koi hai aur voh hai ShivBaba(corporeal Chariot of SHIV)...

"Shankar na hota toh humko Shankar ke saath milaate bhi nahi."-------MU 26.6.70
....that means Shankar is there in practical

"GOD is one,unka bachcha bhi one.Kaha jaata hai Trimurti Brahma.Devi devtaon mein bada kaun?Mahadev Shankar ko kehte hai"---------MU 10.2.72
....GOD SHIV comes to make us DIETY....who is the bigger diety of all?...Shankar...so he should be the SHIV's one and the only son....

"Shankar kya karte hai? Unka part wonderful hai jo tum vishwas kar na sako"-----------MU 14.5.70
....it is happening....no one is ready to believe....why?....because that has mix stage role...subtle and incorporeal.....won't you get confused?...yes that is why it is an wonderful part....which is really tough to understand.....even in Murli it is said that
"BAAP hai vichitra toh unki knowledge bhi vichitra hai"-----------MU 1.5.73
....so Shankar is also wonderful as well as BAAP....so Shankar is the part of BAAP.....as it is already said in Murli
"Baap ne samjhaaya hai Shankar ka itna part nahi.Vah next to SHIV hai"--------MU 8.3.76
....kyonki sab part bajaane waali aatma toh SHIV hai....so Shankar has no such part....SHIV plays the role...
that is why SHIV and Shankar are believed to be one and the same.....Child gets the tittle of his Father....Shankar also gets all of the tittle's of SHIV.....hence Shankar is next to SHIV....

8)SM 9-7-81(1):- Asal may atma pavitr muktidham may rahnevali hai jahaan ShivBaba BHI RAHTE HAIN. Ab ShivBaba PPB. Ek ko Baap, EK KO DAADAA KAHENGE. Yah to tum jante ho. ... ShivBaba aur daadaa ikatte hain. ShivBaba ismey virajmaan hain. -109

= Actually pure soul remains in muktidham where ShivBaba also resides. One is called as Father, the other is Dada- you know this. ...…ShivBaba and Dada are together.

[ShivBaba resides in Paramdham. So he should be a point]

....it is stage of Paramdham.....baba had said in Murli "BACHCHON TUM Paramdham KO BHI NEECHE UTAAR DOGE"....it is the stage we attain....ShivBaba is always in Paramdham....where the soul doesn't do any type of vikarm and hence soul attains purity.....that is why it is said that "Yaad SE TUMHAARE VIKARM VINASH HONGE AUR TUM PAVITRA BANOGE"...

9)SM 1-5-79(2):- Bhaktimarg may bhi samajhte hain hum ShivBaba ke baney, isliye kaashi kalvat khate hain. Bhaktimarg MAY JAB KAASHI KALVAT KHAAYE SHARIR CHOD DETE TO UNKEY PAAP SAB KAT JATE HAIN. Phir bhi vaapis to koyi jaa nahin saktaa. Oopar se sab aa jaavenge, tab vinaash hoga. -57 [WOT, LM, PM,CP]
=Even in Bhaktimarg, people think let us belong to ShivBaba. Hence they do kashi kalvat(sacrificing body in the name of Shiv). ...
[So Baba uses word ShivBaba even for Bhaktimarg or people use that word].

arey dear try to understand...in Bhaktimarg people believe in Shankar and there is no concept of ShivBaba....they do call Shankar as BABA(you can research on that...in Bhaktimarg Shankar IS CALLED AS BABA) and baba says people in Bhaktimarg keep belief about ShivBaba....so it is clearly proved that ShivBaba and Shankar are one and the same in general terms....

10)SM 1-5-79(2):- Baba kahne se hi varse ki khushboo aati hai. Shiv KO HAMESHA Baba KAHA JATA HAI. ShivBaba hi sadgatidata hai. -57

= Shiv IS ALWAYS CALLED AS ShivBaba!
[self expanatory]

i have answered same typical question above.....SHIV is renowned only in form of chitra that is of Shankar.....hence SHIV is always called as ShivBaba....or else how he would hear us without Chariot....?

11)SM 21-10-77(3):- Yah sab tumko koun samjhaa rahe hain? ShivBaba Brahma Dada KE BHRUKUTI KE BEECH MAY BAITH TUMKO SAMJHAATE HAIN. Jaise unki aaatmaa bhrukuti may baithee hai. Zaroor unkey baajoo may baithaa hogaa na. -76
=Who explains these to you? ShivBaba SITS IN FOREHEAD OF Brahma DAADAA and explains to you. Like his soul is seated at forehead. Definitely (even ShivBaba) would be seated just next to him, is it not?

[ShivBaba should be a point. Then only he can sit in forehead].

yes that is what i am saying....i have explained it earlier....goes again
when we say ShivBaba it is incorporeal SHIV in corporeal media...together they become ShivBaba...fully in control of SHIV....but the soul of corporeal Chariot(Ram) follows three stages.....saakari(corporeal),aakari(subtle) and nirakari(incorporeal)... when Ram's soul stays in stage other than SAKARI(corporeal) or when Ram plays a role of aakari(subtle-time of churning) and of nirakari(incorporeal-stage of Yaad),this practical stage of SHIV+BABA is termed as nirakara with no Chariot as such....which means stage of detachment from Chariot.....then who is called as Chariot owner at that time?....BRAHMA Dada Lekhraj is also studying in the permanent Chariot of SHIV.....so he is also sitting on same forehead....


15)SM 17-12-72(2):- Bhaktimarg may mehnat bahut karte hain. Milte hain bhugude(chane). ShivBaba par bhal Sharir bhi hom dete hain to bhi bhugude milti hai. Varsa to mil nahin sakta. Kashi kalvat khaate samay vikarm karke vinaash honge. Phir shuru ho jayenge. Toh bhaavanaa ke bhugude huye na.

= ....In Bhaktimarg, even if one sacrifices his body to ShivBaba, he will not get just groundnuts(hope translation is OK). One cannot get property. ...
[the word ShivBaba used in Bhaktimarg. In Bhaktimarg, Shiv has no body. So he is just a point]

16)SM 4-2-71(3):- Tum bachchon ko koun padhaa rahe hain? Vah nirakar ShivBaba.

=Who teaches you children? That incorporeal ShivBaba.

why it is said that 'VAH NIRAKAR..'...why not told that "MEIN PADA RAHA HOON"...?

17)SM 4-5-79(1):-Har cheez pahle satopradhan hoti hai. Bhakti bhi pahle satopradhan thi jab ShivBaba ko Yaad karte thay.
=Everything will be initially satopradhaan. Even Bhakti was satopradhaan when (devotees were) remembering ShivBaba.

[satopradhaan Bhakti means remembering/worshipping incorporeal, not the body(Baba calls worshipping body as bhoot pooja. So again ShivBaba means point].

....shiv ki pooja as point kabhi nahi hua....shiv is never ever worshipped as point in Bhaktimarg....instead SHIV was worshipped as LING....which is an identity of corporeal form of SHIV.....ling represents the male corporeal form....

18)SM 9-7-70(4):- Ram koyi patit_pavan thode hi hai. Haan, ShivBaba patit_pavan hai. Unko Yaad karna hai. ShivBaba hai hi sab atmaavon ka Baap.

= Ram is not patit-pavan. Yes, ShivBaba is patit-pavan. ShivBaba IS Father OF ALL THE SOULS.

....ShivBaba is patit pavan....and neither only bindi SHIV.....nor only corporeal permanent Chariot of Ram....together as ShivBaba they are patit pavan.....

19)SM 25-9-73(4):- Baap kitna beloved hai. Baap bachchon ko kitna love karte hain. Kitni khaatri karta hun. Phir bhi bachche chod dete hain. ... Phaarkati karne may deri nahin karte hain….. Main chitr to lagaavunga. Tumko Bruhaspati ki dasha hai. Zaroor dashayein badalti rahti hain. BapDada par to love chaahiye na. ShivBaba PAAS JAAVO, KHAAVO, PIVO, NIRAKAR KO BOLO HUMKO KHILAVO. UNKO HAATH KAHAAN SE AAYE. To baap se bahut love hona chahiye.

= How much beloved Father is! How much the Father loves children! Even then children leave Father. ... they do not take much time to divorce. ... one should have love towards BapDada, is it not? GET NEAR TO ShivBaba, EAT, DRINK. TELL THE INCORPOREAL TO FEED YOU. Where is hand for him? ...

....that is what i am asking...unko haath kaha se aaya....?....that means it is said to ShivBaba not to SHIV....

20)SM 5-11-73(1):- 5 vikar stree may, 5 vikar purush may yahi Ravan sampraday huye. To yah NAYI bat huyi na. Swarg bananevala hai P Paramatma. Jisko Ram kahte hain. Narak bananevala hai Ravan. Ravan ka chitr banakar varsh2 jalate hain. Manushy marta hai tho phir thode hi unka epheeji dekhne may aayega. Vah atma jakar doosra sharir leti hain. (GM). Features aadi badal jate hain. Yah to Ravan ko vahi features varsh2 banate aur jalate hain. VASTAV MAY JAISE NIRAKAR ShivBaba HAI, UNKA KOYI FEATURES NAHIN. Vaise Ravan ka bhi koyi features nahin hain. Yah to vikar hai. [53]

= ....In fact, like the incorporeal ShivBaba does not have any feature, even Ravan also does not have any features. This is vices.

so what do you want to say from this?

26)SM 26-2-77(1,2):- Ghadi2 apne ko dehi abhimaani samjho. Tab Baap ko bhi Yaad kar sako. Aise baap ke saath badaa regard se chalnaa pade. Parantu saadhaaran hone kaaran vo regard nahin rahtaa. Samajhte bhi hain vo kaalon kaa kaal hai. YAH ShivBaba JISKO BAAPDAADAA KAHTE HO YAH SABKO SAATH le jaavenge. Kitnaa unkaa bhaari part hai. Sabse oonch te oonch part milaa huvaa hai. Jisko saari duniyaa Yaad kartee hai. Atma kyaa cheez hai. Atma ko to jaan_naa chahiye na. -80

= At every step consider yourself to be soul conscious. One should have very high regard with such a Father. But since he is ordinary, (children) do not keep that regard. (Children) know that he is kaalon kaa kaal(= death of deaths). This ShivBaba to whom you call BapDada, this will take all together. How great his part is!
Note:- Sometimes Baba says in Murli- apne ko atma samajh ek baap ko Yaad karo. = Consider yourself as soul and remember one Father.

Sometimes Baba says- remember ShivBaba.

understand the point ShivBaba who is called BAAPDADA.....plzzz explain me your views...
for rest i think i had answered for similar typ of questions....
So does not this mean both Baap and ShivBaba are one and the same? Or does not it mean there is no need to differentiate them at least in remembrance? If they are different, then how can our remembrance be stable?[/color][/quote]
...

[sachkhand]

"Maloom kaise padta hai ki inmein Baap Bhagwan hai? Jab knowledge dete hai. Bachchon ko baith samjhaate hai."-----MU 27.10.74
"How do you know that Father God is in them?When knowledge is given.Explains the children by sitting."
....this is the only proof,dear....

In PBK group, Thread: Q and A with Baba, Page 2.
by arjun on date: 16 Aug 2006

Brother, I have received the Murli points from nimit Sisters vide email no. 7037/06, which prove that ShivBaba and Shiv are different and that the name Shivabab is based on a body, while the name Shiv is only for the incorporeal point of light.
1. "ShivBaba naam shareer par padtaa hai. Parantu Parmaatma ka Shiv hee naam hai."
"ShivBaba name is based on the body. But the name of Supreme Soul is Shiv only." – Sakar Murli dated 15.3.96
2. "Is srishti par koi bhi cheez sadaa kaayam hai nahee. Sadaa kaayam ek ShivBaba hee hai. Baaki toh sab ko neechey hee aana hai."
"Nothing is permanent in this world. It is ShivBaba alone who is permanent. All the remaining souls have to experience downfall." – Sakar Murli dated 11.1.95
3. "Shiv arthaat bindi."
"Shiv means point." – Sakar Murli dated 21.2.93

AUM Shanti.
In the above quote, please read the Murli point 2. In that it is clearly indicated that ShivBaba alone is permanent in this world and also ShivBaba never experience downfall. ShivBaba never experience downfall is clearly indicated because it is said that except ShivBaba (Who is the only permanent soul in this world) all the remaining souls of this world experience downfall.
Note: The above Murli point is provided by a responsible PBK who is in close contact with AIVV Sisters and also Veerendra Dev Dixit and so I think there needs to be no doubt about the Murli point and it’s truthfulness.

The question that arises now is, does ShivBaba mentioned here not the same as Supreme Soul Shiv i.e., Shiv Bap?
I think, no. Because, although Shiv Bap never experience downfall, still He is not permanent in this world i.e., He is a Special Guest of this world in The Confluence Age only. And then returns back to Paramdham. And amongst the souls of this world who take corporeal form, except ShivBaba all the remaining souls of this world experience downfall i.e., in a way get perished in body consciousness.

I think my views are correct. What do you think?

Now read the answer given to question No. 26 in the following quote: (It is to be noted that the answers are given directly by Veerendra Dev Dixit)

In PBK group, Thread: Q and A with Baba, Page 2.

Om Shanti. Surya Bhai had asked some questions on 26th June, 2006 for which I have received replies from Baba vide email no.6075/06. The same are produced below for the kind information of members.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prashna No.25: Kya chakra may Shiv aur Ram kabhi alag hotey hain? Arthaat kya Ram kabhi ham jaisey saadharan vyakti banta hai, apni aatma ke saath akela?
Uttar: ShivBap & ShivBaba 5000 varsh kay liye alag ho jaatey hain.
Prashna No.26: Tretayug ke pashchaat, kya Ram kabhi vikaari banta hai? Ya kya vah sampoorna drama may ever-pure hai?
Uttar: Haanji , girta hai , lekin vikaar alag baat, vyabhichari alag baat.
Question No.25: Do Shiv and Ram ever get separate during The Cycle? Meaning does Ram ever becomes a simple person like us, alone with his own soul?
Ans: Father Shiv and ShivBaba get separated for 5000 years.
Qustion No.26: After Silver Age, does Ram ever fall into lust? Or is he ever pure in the entire drama?
Ans: yes, he does experience downfall, but sex-lust is a different matter and becoming adulterous is a different matter.

Veerendra Dev Dixit has stated that ShivBaba does experience downfall (although not by being adulterous i.e., vyabhichari but due to sex-lust). Someone might say that in the above question it is asked about Ram and not about ShivBaba. True. But even in question No:25 the question is asked about Ram, but the answer given by Veerendra Dev Dixit considers Ram as ShivBaba and answers accordingly.

Now the important question that arises is, Does ShivBaba experience downfall?

RudraPutra has written a Murli point which tells how to recognise Shiv in anyone, i.e., through the knowledge given by him. Regarding such an important point of knowledge whether Murli is correct or the explanation given by Veerendra Dev Dixit is correct?
Everyone has to decide themselves.
And this explanation by Virendra Dev Dixit is not given when he started to recognise his part, but after thirty years of playing his part as ShivBaba. And still the explanation given by the so called Supreme Teacher contradicts the basics in Murlis.
==========================================================================================

in Murli it has been said that
"Baap bhi gupt,knowledge bhi gupt,tumhaara saara purusharth bhi gupt"------MU 13.9.70
"Father also incognito,knowledge also covert,your all purusharth(manhood) also incognito"
....so when Shiv plays the role of Father through his permanent Chariot,he keeps himself in covert....

Where is Virendra Dev Dixit keeping incognito himself? Since 1976, or a couple of years earlier, he is trying to prove himself as ShivBaba. But he is not getting successful.

even i t is said
"Tum aise nahi kahenge mujh Baap ko Yaad karo.Tum baap ka gyaan sunaavenge.Haan kahenge ki 'Baba AISE KEHTE HAI'.Yeh baatein badi achchi reeti samjhaate hai."--------MU 1.7.68
"Apan ko bhagwan kehne waale HIRANYAKASHYAP hote hai"

The above Murli points apply to human souls, not for Supreme Soul Shiv.
Shiv introduces Himself. It is said in Murlis that ShivBaba tells who is Prajapita. Has ever Shiv told who is Prajapita through Virendra Dev Dixit directly? And Virendra Dev Dixit himself does not believe that Shiv speaks through him. Wonderful, is it not?
Has ever Virendra Dev Dixit accepted his part as Prajapita? When Father does nopt accept his role how can children have faith in such a person? Has Jagadamba (according to AIVV)told anyone that Virendra Dev Dixit is Jagatpita? If yes, then why has she left yagnya? If no then how can children believe those people who themselves do not accept their role as Mother and Father?
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

[sachkhand]

AUM Shanti.
Those PBKs or ex-PBKs wo came around 1993 they must be knowing that at that ime in the audio cassettes of pictures by Virendra Dev Dixit it was said that "Wohi Brahma ki soul kisi Brahman bachhe main pravesh kar Adi dev ka part bajati hai" and "wohi Brahma Saraswati ki soul brahman bachhon main pravesh kar Mama baba ka part bajati hai" [in English: "The same soul of Brahma enters in some Brahman child and plays the part of Adi Dev" and " The same souls of Brahma and Saraswati enters in some Brahman children and plays the part of Mama and baba."]
Few words may be different, but the meaning of them was that it was the soul of Dada Lekharaj who enters and plays the part of Adi Dev, and that Saraswati plays the part of Adi Devi.
And also it was said that the same soul of Brahma plays the part of Shankar by telling those points which pinched the asuri or devilish brahman children.

And after few years slowly, Parampita Paramatma was bifurcated and it was said that Parampita is Shiv and Paramatma is Virendra Dev Dixit himself. So, who has called himself as Paramatma and therefore who is Hiranyakashyap? Is it not wonderful about Virendra Dev Dixit that on one hand he will never accept directly that Virendra Dev Dixit is Prajapita but will indirectly not even hesitate to call himself Paramatma. Is this proper?
Now please do not say that knowledge keeps on altering and changing. If so, then please have pity on us if we are actually dear to you and give knowledge and tell about your claims when you have guarantee and it is the final version. But yes, till then you and we can discuss Murli points and share our views and experiences.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

[sachkhand]

AUM Shanti.
I wrote in wrong thread and so deleted what I had written.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

[mbbhat]

Rudraputra soul wrote:- "Drama mein jiska part hai unmein hi pravesh karte hai aur uska naam Brahma rakhte hai.....Agar vah doosre mein aave toh bhi unka naam Brahma rakhna pade"----------MU 8.3.83

....so Brahma becomes the name given to character where Shiv has entered in Chariot.....but if Chariot is not called as Brahma, that means there is no Shiv in that Chariot.....so no varsa.....is Gulzar Dadi called Brahma?...plzzzzzzz explain me in detail....

Reply:-

yes, it is right. Brahma is the character through whom God does work of creation. So Brahma is that character through whom creation occurs. Because in Bhaktimarg, it is famous- Creation through Brahma.

But Bhaktimarg people even though say- creation through Brahma, they do not believe/understand God’s incarnation in impure body. They think Brahma did creation by sitting above called Brahmalok. But Baba says- I do not create new world, but purify old world and souls, hence I need to enter in an impure body to give knowledge. People get highly upset when they hear Dada Lekhraj as Brahma. Because they cannot digest that brahma can be impure. Because they cannot believe Brahma is like a human being like us!

But Baba directs/suggest children/BKs how to make them understand about god’s incarnation. Baba says- hey my children/fools, tell like this to outside people-

I(=God) am bodyless. I do not create new world. I just purify the old world. So I need to come in impure world in impure body. You only say- creation through Brahma. But just Brahma cannot do it. Because God is the only creator. And God is incorporeal. So he needs a body. You celebrate shivratri. So Shiv should have come, is it not? Why shiv came? Definitely to purify you. So creation= purification= transformation. To transform you, I have to give you knowledge. I need to convert you(change your wrong belief into right belief). This conversion is called adoption and the new varna is called as braahmins.
You only say(=it is written in scriptures) braahmins are created through mouth of Brahma. So definitely braahmins should be created by knowledge. So the Chariot/body in which I enter (use mouth to give knowledge) should be named as Brahma, is it not? Since God has to come in impure world, he will get just impure body like us!

So, dear brothers and sisters, you should not get upset just by keeping one of the person of this world in the place of brahma.

Outside People initially were destroying/tearing pictures when they see Dada Lekhraj in Brahma’s place. There are clear Murli points about that. If you have you can mention. One more is below.

SM 22-11-77(3):- Naam bhi hai Ishwariy Vishw Vidyalay. Aakhrin prasiddh ho javegaa. Yah BK ki Gita pathshaalaa hai. Koyi ne kaha- Trimurti MAY BRAHMA KO DEKH BIGADTE HAIN. To bolo- achchaa LAKSHMI Narayan Radha KRISHN kaa hee laga do. Parantu unhon ko zaroor ShivBaba ne Brahma dwara rajayi dee hogi na. TO BRAHMA BHI ZAROOR LAGAANAA PADE. ARTIFICIAL KAHAAN TAK CHALEGAA. Trimurti ko hum chipaa nahin saktey. Trimurti MARG BHI NAAM HAI. Sensible bachchaa koyi ho to yah koyi naam rakhnevaali department hai unsey pooche Trimurti marg naam rakha hai, yah kounsi Trimurti? Tumney ikatthaa naam kyon daalaa hai? Achchaa- in teenon ko rachnevaalaa jo hai, unkaa bhi marg hai? Gop bhi gupt vesh may bahut kaam kar saktey hain.-74-

= The name is Ishwariy University. In the end it will become famous. This is BKs’ Gita pathshala. Somebody said- people get upset when they see Brahma in Trimurti picture. Then say- OK, (then) use pictures of LN and Radha Krishn. BUT DEFINITELY ShivBaba WOULD HAVE GIVEN THEM KINGDOM THROUGH BRAHMA, IS IT NOT? SO- PICTURE OF BRAHMA ALSO SHOULD BE KEPT. To what extent we can proceed in artificial? We cannot hide picture of Trimurti. There is also name Trimurti road. Sensible child should ask the people of the dept who keep/fix/give names- you have kept name as Trimurti road. Who are these trimurtis? Why have you kept names together? OK- do you have kept name of the one who creates these three? Male BKs can do service in incognito…...

Dear Soul:- See, how Baba says- if some get upset by picture of Trimurti, then do not use it. But sensible children can make outside people realize the truth. So Baba stresses the point- in whoever I come, his name should be kept as brahma.
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Now- coming to your question- why Gulzar Dadi’s name is not kept as Brahma?

Reply:- Through Brahma, braahmins are created. Through Gulzar Dadi, nobody gets converted into braahmin! Anyone from outside world becomes braahmin just by seven days course and Sakar Murlis which were products through Dada Lekhraj! Nobody can become braahmin just by hearing Avyakt Murlis. So in fact there is no creation through Gulzar Dadi! How can she be called as Brahma?

For your kind reference, there are many Murli points which say Brahma is just one. [see the thread- “Prajapita can be two souls, but Brahma is just one” –in common room created by mbbhat].

There is also an Avyakt Murli point that says- the part of creation even at present is still through Brahma. The part through Gulzar Dadi is just like sidescenes.(something like that).

Please note that even today, out of seven days in a week, almost 6days, Sakar Murlis only will be read which are through Dada Lekhraj! Even outside people get vision of Dada LRaj and not of Gulzar Dadi. Hence part of creation is still trough Dada Lekhraj. Gulzar Dadi is just dummy. She is not even aware of herself when BapDada use her body.

Some more comments(but better to ignore. This is just for extra exercise):-

1)some Murli points need not be applicable to all the time. So the above Murli point may be applicable till 1969, need not be afterwards.

2)The Murli point says- the body in which shiv enters should be named as Brahma. It does not say- body in which two souls enter should be named as Brahma.

3)I have no objection(many BKs may not) to agree that it is Brahma Baba(DL) who speaks thorugh Dadi. Because he is now complete. So what he speaks is also srimat. So it can also be shiv just sitting in Dadis’s body, and Brahma Baba speaking most of the time. I do not know. But from Avyakt Murli points, it is clear that both shiv and Dada are present in Dadi’s body during Milan or direct to believe/think so.

4)when even in Sakar Murlis, it is said- ShivBaba takes full responsibilities of Brahma. It is clearly said- even if Brahma speaks, you consider them to be words of ShivBaba. Hence I need not bother who enters there. Because Murli point says- bothy Bap and Dada are together.

Somethings to you:-

a)in this thread, the topic was between ShivBap and ShivBaba. Why did you raise topic of Dadi?

b)when Baba speaks something it should be benefit at least someone, right? That too, when he repeats a point several times, it should benefit many people. So in the Murli point, I have explained to my capacity how outside people can realize God’s incarnation by the name Brahma.

Now will you explain why Baba says- in whoever I come/enter, his name should be kept as Brahma? Who is going to get benefited and how?

Moreover you say- all the points are meant to bk/pbk world. So what is the use of having three or four brahmas?
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[mbbhat]

In PBK group, Thread: Q and A with Baba, Page 2.
by arjun on date: 16 Aug 2006

arjun wrote:Brother, I have received the Murli points from nimit Sisters vide email no. 7037/06, which prove that ShivBaba and Shiv are different and that the name Shivabab is based on a body, while the name Shiv is only for the incorporeal point of light.

1. "ShivBaba naam shareer par padtaa hai. Parantu Parmaatma ka Shiv hee naam hai."
"ShivBaba name is based on the body. But the name of Supreme Soul is Shiv only." – Sakar Murli dated 15.3.96

2. "Is srishti par koi bhi cheez sadaa kaayam hai nahee. Sadaa kaayam ek ShivBaba hee hai. Baaki toh sab ko neechey hee aana hai."
"Nothing is permanent in this world. It is ShivBaba alone who is permanent. All the remaining souls have to experience downfall." – Sakar Murli dated 11.1.95

1) Around three months before I saw this Murli point and was surprised how ShivBaba can be name of body! after a month, i found older version of that Murli which is given below.

SM 27-2-76(3):- ShivBaba ko saajan bhi kahte hain. Tum sajaniyaan is samay chee2 tamopradhaan ho. Main tumhen gul2 banaaye le jaavoongaa. Atmavon ko pavan banaakar le jaavenge. Unko liberator, guide kaha gaya hai na. Behad ka baap le jaataa hai. UNKA NAAM KYAA HAI? ShivBaba. Naam sharir par padtaa hai. PARANTU US PARAMATMA KAA SHIV HEE NAAM HAI. BVS ka to sookshm sharir hai. ShivBaba ka koyi sharir hai nahin. Inko ShivBaba hee kahte hain. Bachche kahte hain- Hey Maat_Pitaa, hum aapkey baalak baney hain. -85-

= ShivBaba is also called as Sajan(Bridegroom). You brides are dirty at present. I will make you pure and take back. Souls are purified and taken back. He is called as Liberator, Guide, is it not? The unlimited Father takes back to home. WHAT IS HIS NAME? ShivBaba. NAME is based on body. BUT NAME OF THAT GOD IS JUST SHIV. Brahma Vishnu Shankar also have subtle body. ShivBaba does not have any body. This is called just ShivBaba. Children say- Hey Mother & Father, we have become your children.

[here Baba says- name of others are based on body. but not for Shiv/ShivBaba.

Just see:- By omitting the fullstop after the word ShivBaba, how the meaning has turned totally different!
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2)I found the older version of this Murli point also.

SM 2-1-75(3):- Ab purushottam ban_ne ki Sangamyug par Krishn kahaan se aayaa? Naam roop to badal jata hai na. Aise nahin ki Krishn hee kaayam hai. Krishn ki atmaa hee kaayam hai, yah bhi nahin kahenge. Is srushti may hate (sadaa) kaayam koyi cheez hai nahin. Sadaa kaayam to ek ShivBaba hee hai. Baaki to sabko neeche aanaa hee hai. Parantu vah bhi Sangam par aate hain. Sabhi ko vaapis le jaate hain. -3-

= Now, in the purushottam Confluence Age, from where Krishn came?(meaning how can Krishn come?) Name and form change, is it not? It is not that Krishn is permanent. We cannot even say- soul of Krishn is permanent. There is nothing permanent in this world. The one who is permament is just one ShivBaba(please note- here the word srushti is not used in this sentence). All others have to come down. But even he(ShivBaba) comes during Confluence to take back all.

Note:- Here- neeche aanaa hee hai= should come down.descend. it does not say/mean expereince downfall.
there is one more mistake- it is neeche aanaa hee hai and not neeche hee aanaa hai.

Actually it is almost clear that the word ShivBaba used here is for the point of light. and not for any other soul which remains in this srushti/world. Because it is only ShivBaba who comes down to take back all.

PBKs simply point just word srushti and say the Murli point is for the human soul and not for God.

I feel PBKs deliberately misused the second Murli point for their need.

But in the first Murli point, there may be possibility of typing mistake by BKWSU.

Anyhow, we should say- it is drama