Research into BKWSU.

[john]

Hi John,

I studied Sakar and Avyakt Murlis with the BK. My experiences both with the BK and since the BK seem to me to be far from that which you suggest.

I am not sure what you mean by what I suggest.
I suggest as the title says more research into the BKSWU, everyone is free to then draw their own conclusions.

John M, can you give a straight answer?
Have you read any Murlis prior to 1965?
What year did Murlis start?
Where are the missing Murlis and why are they missing?

If you were to go into business with somebody, you thought you knew and trusted and then later found out their past was not as they told you.
Would you still want to go into business with them so readily?
In business I think people would have more common sense, but when it comes to religion, spiritualism etc, common sense seems to fly out of the window. Yet surely religion and spirituality are more important and therefore should be taken more seriously...is not it?

[john]

Dear Brother, what is accurate remembrance for you?

My method is the same as BKs, remember Shiva as point of light in Paramdham.
I don't know if it is the most accurate way, but from my studies of Murli, that seems to be the strongest message that I pick up.

I am very interested how remembrance evolved for BKs and why it evolved.
First Shiva was known as a Shivaling, then a thumb shape, then a point of light, if it evolved before, will it evolve again?
Of course originally BKs used to chant OM and read from the Gita and Dada Lekhraj was known as Prajapati Brahma Godfather, originator of the Gita. It wasn't until 1950's that ShivBaba first appeared in any literature, before then Dada Lekhraj thought he was God.

[john morgan]

Hi John,

Have you read any Murlis prior to 1965?
Answer - no idea

What year did Murlis start?
Answer - no idea

Where are the missing Murlis and why are they missing?
Answer - no idea

I can see that you consider that the questions you asked are important. I consider them mere horizontal knowledge.

Gyan is vertical knowledge. Some say that Sanskrit is the language of the soul. Gyan is for me the language of the soul.
The history of Gyan matters not a jot to me. What interests me is whether it works. I do not ask for references before reading poetry or listening to music. When an artist stirs something inside me I often buy their tales, their thoughts, their music etc. I never buy their biography first. When Gyan began no one asked for references, those who heard it enjoyed it, most definitely the teaching was in a different form. I trust that it is in its current form for good reason. The essence of bhuddism has travelled through many different cultures and taken many different forms since it began. I have fallen victim to judging the knowledge in the light of another's actions. Now I forget all the forums, all the Dadi's, every Gyani, everything. I just use the knowledge, it works well for me and sometimes it is very useful for those I meet. We all appproach Gyan from our own unique perspective. For some it is magic and for others it is something less. Many have found Gyan to be both easier and more magical than I have. When one mixes vertical and horizontal knowledge it is so easy to miss the inspiration. Perhaps you are one of those lucky ones who see both, I hope so....

Regards,

John M

[john]

I can see that you consider that the questions you asked are important. I consider them mere horizontal knowledge.

Gyan is vertical knowledge.

How can you say you know Gyan without knowing what is in all the Murlis?
Gyan IS the Murlis, without all the Murlis, Gyan is incomplete. Like the bible is incomplete because ruling parties chose to remove pieces that did not serve their purpose.

I trust that it is in its current form for good reason.

I say trust no one except God, ah but where is God? Is the answer in the Murlis? but we don't have access to all Murlis.
In Murli it says you wont even receive a glass of water without making effort. You can sit back and trust Dadis and Seniors, but don't expect all others to waste their life's and time.

[john]

Also I think it makes some of the things said by PBKs to be on shaky ground.
Veerendra Dev Dixit was sent copies of the documents and literature from the 1940's BKSWU and he has made no comment. To me it also reveals that he doesn't know the exact history. How can ShivBaba not know the accurate history of the Yagya?

This was the answer when Virendra Dev Dixit was sent the literature from the 1940's BKSWU, stating Dada Lekhraj was Godfather Prajapati.

Question No.200: You have been shown some of the pictures prepared in the beginning of the Yagya on the basis of visions and also some literature of that period. What is your reaction to that? Moreover, it is proved through that literature that Shiv’s name did not appear anywhere in the literature for many years in the beginning of the Yagya. So then, since when did the name of Shiv began to be mentioned in the Yagya?
Ans: There is no literature of the beginning of the Yagya. Which ever literatures were there were buried in the box in the Karachi.

Virendra Dev Dixit has not taken into account the literature that was given out at that period.

[john morgan]

Hi John,

You do work hard at this.

I am not afraid that something may be missing in the Murlis. If a person really catches the inspiration then just one Murli could be enough.
I think that these investigations are not Gyan. You on the other hand consider them essential.

Just one point well inculcated is worth more than having read everything and practised nothing. If the Supreme Soul is the Supreme Soul his words whilst spoken long ago to others had you in mind at the exact moment that you read or listen to a Murli. To think that others had special treatment or that you are not in the perfect situation for you to learn is waste thought. Faith in drama includes the faith that nothing will be kept from you. The whole shabang is accurate to the millisecond. Think of Murli points or churn waste thought, the choice is yours. Practice having a light body or get involved in who said or did not say or perhaps said. Angels are here and we have the opportunity of clearing all our bad karma once and for all, I think its a good chance.

We learn and we unlearn. Never mind what was buried in the box, Gyan is about what is buried deep inside you. The story is told, each person then makes effort to discover their own deepest truths. Locked inside us is the treasure, Gyan is a key that can open our box, we have to turn that key. Discard waste thought and more strength becomes available. Krishna was very strong, great strength is also needed to sit amid the roots of the Kalpa tree. To study thought at the point at which it is created is far better than wondering if one might be missing out because there may have been something in that box. Some people study Murlis over and over, it never occurs to them that just one Murli is enough. We study Murli's and explore ourselves, one without the other is not mature Gyan .

Kindest regards,

John M.

[john]

Hi John M

Most of what you say I agree with to some point, it is not that I don't understand you or agree.
I am just saying let's do more.
For a long time I survived on maybe 20 Murlis, I thought it was OK, but looking back and now having access to so many more has made me realise that yes, I was OK, but it wasn't a rounded education. Baba says in Murli 'each Murli I will reveal new points', 'knowledge will slowly unravel'. So this cannot be understood from just one Murli. Yes in every Murli many essence points are repeated and repeated so that new students don't miss them, which is why IF you only have one Murli you can learn a lot. But it doesn't mean you should have one Murli and then not bother.

John M wrote

Never mind what was buried in the box,

I think you are misunderstanding what this is about and why I posted that quote. I think maybe because you came late to BK.info forum, you have missed a lot that was said.
My point was that Virendra Dev Dixit never answered the question properly over such a relevent find and was unaware of the literature before.


I think it will be good if you start a thread showing ideas of how souls can apply the knowledge, it is a good idea, but let's not limit the forum to a few good ideas, let's be unlimited.

[john]

So John M, if we may proceed beyond discussing the merits and demerits of doing research, we could actually do something ;-)

Dear all or anyone with an interest.
In the library part of BK.info are books written by very old BKs, some are the relatives and close companions to Brahma Baba.
Though they can not be taken at face value, there are some valuble insights into the early days and workings of the Yagya.
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/forum/down.php
You don't need to be a member to access the documents.
Inside the vintage publications section are some good biographies
— Autobiography of Dadi Nirmal Shanta.pdf
— Life Story of Dada Chandrahas,2001.pdf
I will over time post aspects that have struck me.
In one book it explains how Dada Lekhraj had a business in Calcuta and in the same bulding on seperate floors were Sevakram and other relatives of Dada Lekhraj each having there own business. i think Dadi Nirmal Shanta describes this from her childhood days of playing in the building.
In another part it says they had little money left(in the Yagya), and if you read it as I did, that is why they started doing more service, to make money?

[shivsena]

There is the biography of Brahma, of Mama of Didi Dadi etc etc. Where is the true biography of ShivBaba? in the Murli it speaks of the 'Biography of Shiva'.

Yes---Murlis do mention ShivBaba ki biography. So whose biography is this??....is it bindishiv ki biography???....or is it the biography of Ram's soul who attained the status of ShivBaba in the end and this will be narrated only by Ramshivbaba in 100% nirakari stage("Bap ki biography bap se hi jaani jaati hai").

shivsena.

[john morgan]

Hi John,

I am not sure why service started. If there was shortage of money it wouldn't have made service possible. That people had reached a stage where they could teach and give something of benefit is what made service possible.

Do you currently attend class?

Kindest regards,

John M

[john]

When we came to Abu from Karachi, we had some money and rations but there was no outside service in Abu. In Sindh Godly service was being done accordingly mothers and girls would put money in Baba's Box, but what could we do in Abu?

From the book 3 in 1, autobiography of Dadi Nirmal Shanti, page 63.


John M wrote

Do you currently attend class?

For you to even write such a thing makes me see you are making too many assumptions. Actually it is personal information.
Maybe you are stuck in a timewarp from the time you were with the BKs? Seriously, think about it. Can you not at least open your mind to any possibilities beyond the brainwashing you received? You were duped, would you not like to see the truth? BKSWU DID NOT TELL YOU THE TRUTH THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, it's time to wake up and get off the fluffy clouds.

[john morgan]

Hi John,

It is interesting that an innocent question should result in so many assumptions on your part.

Do I believe the BK without question?
Answer : Of course not.

Do the BK teach and demonstrate something of great value?
Answer : Yes they do.

Has my spiritual study brought me into contact with other yogi's and knowledge?
Answer : Yes it has.

Our paths deviate at this point John, See you around sometime.

John M.

[john]

Do the BK teach and demonstrate something of great value?
Answer : Yes they do.

If all they claimed was that they teach something of great value, then that would be fine,there would be no need to really examine much, but they are claiming to be the one and only truth.

Has my spiritual study brought me into contact with other yogi's and knowledge?
Answer : Yes it has.

Our paths deviate at this point John, See you around sometime.

John M.

yes our paths deviate, I take Murlis and BK stuff very seriously, for me it is not just another item in the spiritual supermarket to throw in the basket with the best elements of other spiritual paths.

[john morgan]

Gosh John,

If they are claiming that its not very kind on the rest of the world. I thought a yogic life following BK knowledge aimed at becoming like Bap Dada. That aim and activity seem to me to be far from the arena of argument. Surely the merits or demerits of the knowledge are ultimately proved by following Bap Dada's instructions. Leaving the heated dialogues to those vultures that think that dead meat is LIFE seems best to me. Either I follow or do not. If I don't then my responsibility has to be to do what I can. It may be that one value of thinking that there is nowhere else to go is that a person will do what they have not done before - sort out their karma and improve it. That effort must be made alone - even if one is part of an organisation with a million plus members each subscribing in their own way to the ideals and aims taught.

I shop around, I also do a little selling. The depth of my studies are with all due respect not something you need be concerned about. It's a little driving. Watch like a hawk the guy in front and keep an eagle eye on the guy behind, but the one you've really gotta watch is the one behind the one in front and in front of the one behind. You seem both for and against certain aspects of knowledge, there is, for me, merit in where you are- where else could you possibly be! That the value of the BK method has by far exceeded the value of all commentary on their activity is true for me. I think they are way in front but even if they were far behind I would still need to keep a beady eye on - the one in between!

[john]

John M
I think generally we will have to agree to disagree.
Hopefully over time the reasons for research will become apparent and you be able to view them and any people involved less suspiciously.
My view is that research will prove the Murlis and Gyan to be correct, which differs from the BK.info slant, though, there is a common goal and that is for the truth to come out.
I believe BKSWU is teaching the knowledge incorrectly and that is why there is damage being done. You say the proof is in seeing the results of the followers. John M I have heard some nasty things about BKSWU, none of which is on this forum or the BK.info forum.
The people with the information will not come forward because of threats. You really have to wake up.