Shankar's Part ?

[arjun]

Om Shanti. Dada Lekhraj Brahma should not be seen only as the one through whom Shiv played the role of a Mother. Brahma is also an individual effort-maker like any other soul. Similarly Prajapita is also an effortmaker besides being the appointed Chariot of Shiv. The above negative comments are upon his individual efforts and have nothing to do with his role as the temporary Chariot of Shiv or with the role of Mother that Shiv played through him. We have to follow the actions that Shiv performed through him to set an example before the children.

[ANU]

Dear Arjuna,
We received teaching "Follow Brahma" not "Follow Shiva as the Mother in Brahma" or "Follow Shiva in Brahma".

[arjun]

We received teaching "Follow Brahma" not "Follow Shiva as the Mother in Brahma" or "Follow Shiva in Brahma".

On this aspect even the BKs would agree with us that 'Follow Brahma' means 'to follow Brahma in the actions performed by Shiv through him'. Shiv played the role of Karanhaar (doer) through Brahma. If Brahma had the power to perform righteous actions on his own, he would have transformed the world in the past 63 births. Brahma became 'worth following' only after Shiv started playing the role of mother through him. And you say that we have to follow Brahma independant of Shiv. Is there any importance of any Brahmin soul (from Prajapita to the last bead) without the knowledge of Shiv?

[pbkindiana]

Arjun wrote:
On this aspect even the BKs would agree with us that 'Follow Brahma' means 'to follow Brahma in the actions performed by Shiv through him'.

In AK it is said that to 'Follow Brahma' means not to give sorrow to anyone. Brahma actions were such that he never hurt anyone with words and actions. Even when the demoniac souls spoke to him harshly, he never uttered anything back to give sorrow to any of them. Thats Brahma's speciality and we follow Brahma in actions ie. not to give sorrow. Shiv only played the tolerance part but when it is said to practise purity, Brahma Baba violated Shrimat by conducting marriages between the brahmin children. On this aspect Shiva would never performed such an action through Brahma. So we cannot say that all the actions of Brahma is performed by Shiv through him.

If Brahma had the power to perform righteous actions on his own, he would have transformed the world in the past 63 births.

Brahma is indeed a righteous soul and he is seated on the right side of the Trimurti picture. Brahma alias Krishna's purity level was higher than Prajapita as he is shown to have a dand or weapon in his hands and on the basis of purity Brahma gained victory over Vishwamitra (Prajapita) too. Only when Prajapita did penance and when his purity increases with the power of Yoga, then Prajapita is able to ride on the bull (Brahma). Not to forget that even the Ram soul will meet his downfall and only after Shiva's entrance that these souls become elevated once again.

indie.

[mbbhat]

On this aspect even the BKs would agree with us that 'Follow Brahma' means 'to follow Brahma in the actions performed by Shiv through him'.

I do not agree and also believe that most of the BKs also will not.
BKs believe that we should follow actions of Brahma Baba. Since it is believed that he is going to be number one and the one who studies the best, his remembrance would be the best.

[arjun]

Om Shanti. As a BK I was taught that Shiv performs the role of Karan-karavanhar through Brahma. Otherwise why would Shiv use the words 'establishment through Brahma' ? He could have used the words 'establishment by Brahma'.

[ANU]

why would Shiv use the words 'establishment through Brahma' ? He could have used the words 'establishment by Brahma'.

Shiva doesn't use these words. These words are the words of translators. They are English words and they have their meanings. In Hindi, in SM, the words 'se' and dvara' were used. "Through" means "by means of" and "by" means the same, "through the agency or means of". These two words in English mean the same. Please, do not use English for clarifying Hindi. These two languages have nothing in common. Translations bring more harm than benefits. They confuse and twist meanings. Each language has its own logic and its own meanings. Actually, if we look from the point of view of English language there is no difference whether we say "through " or "by ". English native speakers which I spoke with do not notice any difference. They take them as the same. The difference between "through " and "by" i English was created by PBKs who wanted to express some different meanings. Actually some natives speakers say that saying "establishment through Brahma" is incorrect.

[shivsena]

Om Shanti. As a BK I was taught that Shiv performs the role of Karan-karavanhar through Brahma.

This is pbk teaching(not bk teaching), that shiv performs karan-haar through brahma DL and plays karaa-van-haar through VD (ie through 2 different bodies)....this again is the most misleading teaching that shiv acts as karan-karavanhaar through 2 bodies.

When the term ''shyam-sunder'' is explained in AK, then 2 bodies are not considered....the meaning of shyam-sunder as explained in AK : it refers not to DL(Krishna) because DL did not play the part of shyam sunder while he was alive.... but the part of shyam-sunder is attributed to VD (who is supposed to be Sangamyugi Krishna)....but how is VD playing the part of shyam-sunder is not explained in AK and how shiv at the same time is playing the role of karaa-van-haar through the same body is what needs to be explained.

Has any pbk wondered about this double standard teaching of AK and has had the courage to ask Baba Dixit about this ambiguity....it would be worthwhile if any pbk could ask why shiv has to play karan-karavanhaar part through 2 bodies(DL and VD) and why Krishna(VD) has to play shyam-sunder part through one body and also HOW ????

shivsena.

[ANU]

We have to follow the actions that Shiv performed through him to set an example before the children.

In order to follow someone, I need to see him. I haven't seen Brahma Baba in action. So I can rely on what those who saw him tell me. They are all BKs who according to AIVV teaching lie. Relying on their heard stories is the same as "suni-sunayi baton se bharatvasi...." means relying on gossiping. Why should I believe BKs and their stories about Brahma Baba, in order to be able to follow Brahma?

According to SM I must not even keep a photo of Brahma and I should not remember him. On the other side I should follow Brahma. To follow someone definitely involves a kind of remembering him. It is inevitable. Whom should I follow? The dead one? All BKs are trying to follow Brahma and they are said by AIVV to be wrong. Why should we follow the dead Brahma, but we should remember the living God. Why shouldn't we follow the living Brahma? Prajapita Brahma is said to be the most elevated among Brahmas. The SM point is "Follow BRAHMA", not 'follow Brahma Baba'.

[arjun]

In order to follow someone, I need to see him. I haven't seen Brahma Baba in action. So I can rely on what those who saw him tell me. They are all BKs who according to AIVV teaching lie. Relying on their heard stories is the same as "suni-sunayi baton se bharatvasi...." means relying on gossiping. Why should I believe BKs and their stories about Brahma Baba, in order to be able to follow Brahma?

According to SM I must not even keep a photo of Brahma and I should not remember him. On the other side I should follow Brahma. To follow someone definitely involves a kind of remembering him. It is inevitable. Whom should I follow? The dead one? All BKs are trying to follow Brahma and they are said by AIVV to be wrong. Why should we follow the dead Brahma, but we should remember the living God. Why shouldn't we follow the living Brahma? Prajapita Brahma is said to be the most elevated among Brahmas. The SM point is "Follow Brahma", not 'follow Brahma Baba'.

In that case you can follow the practical part of Brahma that is going on through the body of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. But you need to have the discerning intellect to differentiate the role of Shankar and Brahma being played through the same body. The soul of Ram is also one of the five Brahmas, is not he? Now shivsena Bhai will immediately say that there is no such Murli point that the role of Shankar and Brahma is played through the same body. Well, we cannot take everything in literal sense. The advance knowledge is clear about the souls which play the role of Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar in practical, but it is also said that there are five Brahmas. So, as the soul of Ram is also one of the Brahmas, we can follow him if we want to follow Brahma in practical.

[mbbhat]

It is said very clearly in Murlis to follow Brahma Baba just as it is. It is said- "You follow this. Even if this says something, you consider it to be mine (that of Shiv). I will take responsibility of correcting it".

So- it is said- follow Brahma Baba directly.

[arjun]

The above member is free to have his own views.

[shivsena]

The SM point is "Follow Brahma", not 'follow Brahma Baba'.

Vanis always say: : ''Brahma ki jivan hai accurate computer"....so we children have to "Follow Brahma"..."Follow Father"....so who is this brahma(badi Maa) whom we have to follow.....it is not brahma DL, but it is Mama Saraswati (adi-shakti brahma) who was topmost in all 4 subjects and who set an example for the future students to follow her and attain the karmatit stage.....this is my view.

shivsena.

[ANU]

Actually, I would also raise another issue here:

Very often Vanis say: "Folow Brahma Bap". Acc to AK "Brahma Bap" means Mother and Father. Where are they to be followed?

[arjun]

Very often Vanis say: "Folow Brahma Bap". Acc to AK "Brahma Bap" means Mother and Father. Where are they to be followed?

The soul of Brahma (bari ma or senior mother) is playing a part through the the soul of Ram. So, by following the present Sakar form of ShivBaba you are following both the mother and the Father (ardhanareeshwar).