Madhuban, Kampil and mini-Madhubans, my 3 feet

[arjun]

Andrey,
Do you have Murli/Vani quote on this.

I am reproducing the original Hindi and English version of the concerned point from the Avyakt Vani dated 1977/78 narrated through Gulzar Dadiji:

· “Madhuban kisko kaha jaata hai? Jahaan Brahmanon ka sangathan hai vah madhuban hai. Toh harek videsh kay sthaan ko Madhuban banaao. Madhuban banaavengey toh Baap-Dada bhi aavengey. Kyunki Baap ka vaayada hai ki Madhuban may aana hai. Toh jahaan Madhuban vahaan Baap-Dada. Aagey chal kar bahut wonders dekhengey…..Jahaan rahtey ho vahaan chaaron ore aavaaz fail jaaye. Question utpann ho ki yah kaun hai aur kya hai? Jab aisey sangathan taiyyaar karengey toh jahaan sangathan hai vahaan Bap-Dada bhi haazir naazir hain.” (BKs dwara prakaashit Avyakt Vani sankalan 1977-1980 kay page 344 par uplabdh Avyakt Vani, shaayad date 11.2.78)

· “What is said to be Madhuban? Wherever there is a gathering of Brahmins, it is Madhuban. So, make every place of foreign countries a Madhuban. If you prepare Madhuban, then Bap-Dada will also come. Because it is Baba’s promise that He has to come in Madhuban. So wherever there is Madhuban there is Bap-Dada. In future you will see many wonders. ..... Wherver you live, the name must spread everywhere. A question must arise (in the minds of people) as to who are these people and what is this? When you prepare such a gathering then wherever there is a gathering BapDada will also be present practically.” (Avyakt Vani at the page no. 344 of the compilation of Avyakt Vanis for the years 1977-1980, most probably dated 11.2.78)

There is another interesting AV dated 11.11.81, where BapDada was speaking to Nirmalshanta Dadiji (daughter of Brahma Baba). She must have requested BapDada to visit Calcutta (in Eastern India), where she normally resides. The reply given by BapDada was as follows:

"Jaroor, haan vah samay dikhaayega kyunki bachhey bulaavein, Baap na aavey, yah ho nahi sakta. Lekin kis reeti say aayengey yah dekhna.” (BKs dwara prakaashit Avyakt Vani taareekh 11.11.81, page 134, Nirmalshanta Didi say baat kartey huay)

"Certainly. Yes, time will reveal that, because it cannot be possible that children call Father and Father won’t come. But you must watch how he comes.” ( Avyakt Vani dated 11.11.81, page 134, BapDada talking to Nirmalshanta Didi)

This role of BapDada visiting the various mini-Madhubans and Gitapathshalas is practically going on in the Advance Party among the PBKs, but for the BKs BapDada has not travelled anywhere out of Mount Abu except of course Abu Road (Taleti) which is on the foot hills of Mount Abu. So, when and where will BapDada visit, if the above AV point applies only to the BKs and not to the PBKs?
Could any BK clarify please?
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Note: The English versions of the above AV points have been translated by the PBKs and not from the original BK English version. That is the reason why the Hindi version has also been reproduced, which is from the original BK Hindi version. Normally, all the English versions of the Sakar Murlis/AVs quoted by PBKs in this section are translations rendered by PBKs and not the original English version published by the BKs. If a datewise collection of the official/original BK version of the Sakar Murlis/AVs could be maintained on this site, it would be easy to verify from that version whenever anyone has a doubt.

[pbktrinityshiva]

Om Shanti,

I have received the reply from Baba and I have also included the Hindi reply.

1. Does Paramdham actually exist as a place or is it just a seed state of mind/soul?------------ Paramdham is located around the space. It has been said in the Murli that you children bring down the Paramdham to this world. In the Confluence Age we attain a Paramdham-like stage which has been named as the living Paramdham.

2. If ShivBaba is in Kampil, does this mean Shiva is not in Paramdham?------- Yes, it is correct.

3. If Shiva only plays a 100 year part in the Confluence Age is the rest of his part during the cycle in Paramdham in adormant state like other souls or does he have any consciousness of being there? -------- Without a body the soul would be said to be like a non-living object.
-----------------------------------------------

1. Kya Paramdham vaastav may koi sthaan hai ya fir keval man/aatma ki beej roopi sthiti?------ space ki charon taraf Paramdham hai hi , Murli me kaha hai tum bache param dham ko is sristhi per late ho . Sangamyug me paramdhamik stage banate hai . jis ko chaitanya Paramdham kahagaya.

2. Yadi ShivBaba Kampil may hain toh kya iska artha hai Shiv Paramdham may nahe hai?------ theek hai.

3. Yadi Shiv Sangamyug may keval 100 saal hee part bajaatey hain toh chakra ke baaki bhaag may kya vay anya aatmaon ki tarah jad avastha may rahtey hain ya fir unko vahaan honay ka ehsaas hota hai?------- Bina sarir ki, atma ko jadbat kahenge.

[bansy]

From above quotes, Paramdham is located around the space and Shiva is in Kampil. Just a few further Qs following from this.

• Where do souls that now leave bodies go before they take rebirth into another body (ignore Advance Party souls) ?

• How are souls selected to enter a body, if Shiva is in the corporeal world ? Does He not play the part on the selection ?

• Where are the Advance Party souls staying now ? Who's looking after them ?

• How many souls are there going to be in the Soul World just before the destruction and after the destruction, zero and 6 billion respectively ?

[fluffy bunny]

From above quotes, Paramdham is located around the space and Shiva is in Kampil.

That is the picture of the Three Worlds. But how does it fit with logic and reason?

• Paramdham they say is infinite and eternal.

How can you have infinite space minus a little bit for the material Universe?

Infinite means without boundaries, endless, no beginning and no end. How can infinite exist with finite boundaries? Infinite over there, Finite over here.

It does now work. Infinite must be all and everywhere at the same time. Right here and now, just accessed in a different level of consciousness. Or else you have to call Nirvana something else and say it is not infinite.

Ditto with eternity. Eternity means for all time. So all time, every moment must exists always. The past and the present together.

Strangely science does not disagree with this but how do we square scientific measurements of the Universe's size and age? Science tends to think of the Universe as infinite and expanding or contract. A concept that makes my brain hurt just as much. How can you have something that is infinite and getting bigger?

We cant "know", can we? We can just accept the simplistic mental plugs to stop us thinking or not. Do the PBKs and their ShivBaba have any better answers?

Frankly, neither answer would lead to making one a better person or removing suffering and so I suppose the pursuit of such wisdom does not have much point where there is not the experience of it.

The problem we have to recognise is that human beings are vulnerable in their ability to believe. We have conceived our planet here floating in a great big vast bowl out there for all our existence on this planet. What is reality and what are we taught just stop stop our thoughts wandering so that we 'yogitate' instead?

[arjun]

From above quotes, Paramdham is located around the space and Shiva is in Kampil.

That is the picture of the Three Worlds. But how does it fit with logic and reason?

• Paramdham they say is infinite and eternal.

How can you have infinite space minus a little bit for the material Universe?

Infinite means without boundaries, endless, no beginning and no end. How can infinite exist with finite boundaries? Infinite over there, Finite over here.

It does now work. Infinite must be all and everywhere at the same time. Right here and now, just accessed in a different level of consciousness. Or else you have to call Nirvana something else and say it is not infinite.

Om Shanti. I was going through a couple of latest Sakar Murlis published by the BKs today. I found this relevant point in the revised Sakar Murli dated 2.6.06, narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba:

“Yah duniya ek badaa maandvaa hai. Yah aakaash tatwa bahut badaa hai, iskaa koi ant nahee. Inki end kahaan hai, vah nikaal nahee saktey. Chaltey jaao, end nahee ho sakti. Brahma mahtatwa kee bhi koi end ho nahee sakti. Yoon science vaaley kitnee koshish kartey hain end dekhney kee lekin ja nahee saktey, ant paa nahee saktey. Brahma tatwa bahut badaa, beant hai. Ham aatmaen bahut thodi jagah may rahtee hain.”

“This world is also a big tent. This sky element is very big. There is no end to it. Its (i.e. the world’s) end cannot be found. You may keep walking, but it would not end. There cannot be any end to the Brahma Mahatatwa (i.e. the Soul World). As such the scientists try so much to see the end, but they cannot go; they cannot reach the end. The Brahma Mahatatwa is very large, infinite. We souls live in a very small space.”

So as per Baba, when compared to a tiny being like a man, this Earth is endless. And similarly in comparison to this Earth or solar system, the Soul World is infinite. Even the scientists say that beyond this solar system, there are other solar systems also. But I don’t think they have been able to research/reach much beyond that. Their physical access has not covered even the fathest point of our solar system. So any talk about the universe beyond the solar system cannot be cent percent correct. It can be a theory but not a law. This is in terms of the gross Earth/Solar System/Soul World.

But Baba speaks about these things in the unlimited sense also. That is why you must have heard Baba telling frequently in the Murlis that ‘behad ka Baap, behad ke bachhon say behad kee baatein kartey hain’ (The unlimited Father narrates to his unlimited children the matters in unlimited sense). In the advance knowledge the Earth, the nature, the Soul World, the Sun, the Moon, the stars everything is in unlimited sense.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[pbktrinityshiva]

Hi Bansy,
I'll try to answer these questions per my own understanding then email your questions and my answers to Baba for correction if you would like me to :)

Where do souls that now leave bodies go before they take rebirth into another body (ignore Advance Party souls) ?
Ignoring souls in Gyan, I think they must roam, trying to find souls they 'can' enter into to fullfill their desires or gain knowledge from. If they are to take another birth then they would move closer to that location/bodies.

How are souls selected to enter a body, if Shiva is in the corporeal world ? Does He not play the part on the selection ?
I am not sure which you mean 'entering' as in being born into a new body or entering into an existing body. If entering into a new body then it would happen according to whether that soul has completed its maximum births or not.
In regards to a particular soul or souls entering into an embodied soul this is determined based on karmic bonds. Its not that any soul can enter any other soul. It may enter/follow a soul based on the karmic accounts between those souls entering and the embodied soul. Its not that Shiva selects, its predetermined.

Where are the Advance Party souls staying now ? Who's looking after them ?
The Advance Party souls are embodied and staying all around India/Overseas (PBK's).. Or do you mean the BK souls who have left their bodies who are inspiring embodied Advanced Party Souls? Please clarify on this :)

How many souls are there going to be in the Soul World just before the destruction and after the destruction, zero and 6 billion respectively ?
Yes i think this is correct, I do not know when the last human soul would arrive from Soul World before the destruction, but I guess the animal souls would keep coming down right up until the very end. I know whether embodied or not after destruction all souls will be in Soul World, when it is brought down to this very earth.

I've only answered here to the best of my knowledge. Please clarify if i've interpreted your questions correctly before i send for them.
Om Shanti
On Godly Service,
Pbk trinityshiva

[bansy]

Dear pbktrinityshiva and others

Thanks for your replies.

How are souls selected to enter a body, if Shiva is in the corporeal world ? Does He not play the part on the selection ?
I am not sure which you mean 'entering' as in being born into a new body or entering into an existing body. If entering into a new body then it would happen according to whether that soul has completed its maximum births or not.

Yes, I meant born into a new body.

Where are the Advance Party souls staying now ? Who's looking after them ?
The Advance Party souls are embodied and staying all around India/Overseas (PBK's).. Or do you mean the BK souls who have left their bodies who are inspiring embodied Advanced Party Souls? Please clarify on this

Yes, the latter, the ones who have left their bodies.

Regards
Bansy

PS I am having my PC and internet connnection "revamped" so will be slow to reply this month. Go ahead with churnings.

[pbktrinityshiva]

Hi Bansy,

My apology for the delay, but I have finally send those questions to Baba. I reanswered/altered a few of the questions/replies in accordance with your clarification. I will post Baba's corrections when they are received.

Om Shanti

[bansy]

General comment to all :
The dates for this BapDada season have been issued, double foreigners are requested to go during certain months and meetings. This seems to be a recurring theme, becoming more explicitly told to Double Foreigners year on year to come on certain dates.
Why should double foreigners not have access to BapDada anytime, He already only comes in Madhuban for half a year, and during this half year, it is only at selected meetings ? Does it not occur to them that some Double Foreigners, even of a Western nature, may actually like to mix with the Indian culture, language is not the problem as experienced BKs are able to handle themselves anyway. And not all Double Foreigners want to attend the classes but just simply want to "go home".

To PBKs:
The size of gatherings (for now) at Kampil may be smaller so easier to administer as compared to Mt Abu, but are PBKs (Double Foreigners or not) allowed access to Kampil and ShivBaba throughout the year ? Or are specific dates set, like the BKs.

[arjun]

To PBKs:
The size of gatherings (for now) at Kampil may be smaller so easier to administer as compared to Mt Abu, but are PBKs (Double Foreigners or not) allowed access to Kampil and ShivBaba throughout the year ? Or are specific dates set, like the BKs.

Om Shanti. PBKs have access to Kampil and ShivBaba throughout the year. The only constraint is the size of the house at Kampil. Since it is small, and can accomodate less than 200 souls (I suppose) at a time, the PBKs are generally advised to fix their programme beforehand so that all the parties do not come at the same time from all over India (or world). And it is also advised that those who have already undergone bhatti should come to Kampil only in case they are bringing new souls for bhatti. Otherwise, their visit may cause inconvenience to the new souls who may be desirous of doing bhatti at Kampil. If by chance the number of souls coming for bhatti at any given time exceeds the limits of accomodation, then the old PBKs are accomodated somewhere else in the Kampil village.
In view of the above, it is observed that bhatti goes on almost continuously throughout the year at Kampil.

As regards access to ShivBaba, PBKs are free to contact him through emails, letters, telephonic message etc. or can meet him whenever he visits their city/town/village of residence.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[pbktrinityshiva]

Om Shanti,

I have received Baba's corrections to the questions I answered previously in this topic. Questions are in blue, my answers are in darkblue and Baba's answers are in red.

Question No.33: Where do souls that now leave bodies go before they take rebirth into another body (ignore Advance Party souls)?
Prashna No.33: Jo aatmaen abhi sharir chod rahi hain voh doosra sharir leney say pehley kahaan jaati hain (Advance Party ki aatmaon ki baat ko chod deejiye)?

Ans: They must roam, trying to find souls which they are able to enter into, to fulfill their desires or gain knowledge. If they are to take another birth then they would move closer to that location and souls/bodies. ------- jinka akalmaut hota hai , oonko suksham sarir dharan kerke bhataknapadhta hai , sahej sarir chodne walon ko dusri sarir jaldi miljata hai (Those who have met an untimely death have to wander here and there by assuming a subtle body. Those who leave their bodies naturally get another body easily).


Question No.34: How are souls selected to enter a body, if Shiva is in the corporeal world? Does He not play the part on the selection?
Prashna No.34: Yadi Shiv saakari duniya may hain toh fir shariron may pravesh karney ke liye aatmaon ka chayan kaisey hota hai? Kya vay is chayan may koi bhoomika nahee nibhaatey?

Ans: Its not that Supreme Father Shiva selects, souls take those bodies to which it is predetermined according to drama. If a soul enters into a new body then it would happen according to whether that soul has completed its maximum births in the cycle or not. The soul would then take birth where it has karmic bonds to complete. --------atmaon ko sanskar ki adhar per pahele se hi sarir nirman hota hai khudrati roop se (The bodies of souls get prepared in advance naturally on the basis of their sanskars) .

Question No.35: Where are the BK Souls who have left their bodies and are entering embodied Advance Party souls staying now?
Prashna No.35: Jo BK aatmaen apna sharir chod chuki hain aur Advance Party ke sharirdhaariyon may pravesh kar rahee hain, voh kahaan nivaas kartee hain?)
Ans: -------- jinka akalmaut hota hai , oonko suksham sarir dharan kerke bhataknapadhta hai , sahej sarir chodne walon ko dusri sarir jaldi miljata hai (Those who have met an untimely death have to wander here and there by assuming a subtle body. Those who leave their bodies naturally get another body easily)..Who's looking after them? (Unki dekhbhaal kaun kartaa hai?) -------sukshmsarir dhari to aise hi bhatakte rahete hai (the souls possessing subtle bodies simply keep wandering here and there).
I’m not sure if they would be staying in any one place. I think they are constantly roaming to assist embodied Advance Party souls or to gain the advance knowledge.

Question No.36:How many souls are there going to be in the Soul World just before the destruction and after the destruction, zero and 6 billion respectively?
Prashna No.36:Vinaash say theek pehley aur vinaash ke theek baad Paramdham may kitnee aatmaen rahengi - kya kramashah shoonya aur 600 karor?
Ans: -----------kam se kam 1 (at least 1).
Yes I think this is correct, I don’t know when the last human soul would arrive from Soul World before the destruction, but I guess the animal souls would keep coming down right up until the very end. I know whether embodied or not after destruction all souls will be in Soul World, when it is brought down to this very Earth.

Baba

Arjun, please feel free to post these into Q&A..I have sent these to you via email with BBcode to save time. Please change format/structure if you require. Om Shanti

On Godly Service,
PBK Ben Bhai

[surya]

[quote]Question No.36:How many souls are there going to be in the Soul World just before the destruction and after the destruction, zero and 6 billion respectively?
Prashna No.36:Vinaash say theek pehley aur vinaash ke theek baad Paramdham may kitnee aatmaen rahengi - kya kramashah shoonya aur 600 karor?
Ans: -----------kam se kam 1 (at least 1). [/quote]

My question is: Why only one soul is left up there in Paramdham? What kind of soul is that?

Om Shanti

[arjun]

Arjun, please feel free to post these into Q&A..I have sent these to you via email with BBcode to save time. Please change format/structure if you require. Om Shanti

Dear PBK Trinityshiva,
Om Shanti. I have posted the Q&A with necessary modifications. Pl. check your mail.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[arjun]

My question is: Why only one soul is left up there in Paramdham? What kind of soul is that?

Dear brother, Om Shanti. I don't think that the above answer means that one soul is 'permanently' left there. Even that soul would have to come down when the first soul returns to the Soul World.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[bansy]

Dear brothers

Thanks for the replies. Will churn on them for a while.

Regards
Bansy