Andrey

[pbkdivya]

God save me from souls like andrey. He is the most persistently incorrigible irritating soul I have ever met.

Dear sweet shivsena Bhai,

When i first met you in 1997, you have a versatile character that you can deal with different characters of PBKs with churning or non-churning intellect in a diplomatic manner. You never see their short-comings despite that you are a professional. I was very impressed and admired your strength of character and discretion. It is just like when i was a bk, this phrase of "to have a balance of the brain and the heart" was always mentioned in the Murlis and i have presumed that you are one of those souls who inculcate this phrase.

You give regards to those who are complete novice in knowledge. Besides praising ShivBaba, i used to speak highly of you to the other PBKs but alas, 'all that was once upon a time'. Now i am seeing a total stranger in you. I did not anticipate a drastic change of your character. You are just waiting to hurl caustic remarks. I was under the assumption that all these years in advance knowledge will make you wiser and to possess a charismatic personality. I am aware that you relish the prospects of debating knowledge but why should you be cynical in your postings.

All I can see now is the arrogance that is prevalent in you or am I to understand that now you are in your tamo stage and that's the reason of your sarcasm. All of us are in the tamo stage but that doesn't permit us to be unpleasant to others. After recognizing ShivBaba, one has to be wary of our thoughts, speech and actions, otherwise we have to pay for it.

Om Shanti, divya

[shivsena]

I cannot speak about non-PBKs, but when ShivBaba (either through Brahma Baba or through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) or Avyakt BapDada (through Gulzar Dadiji) has not used abusive language while speaking to the BKs & PBKs, then a PBK member of this forum definitely does not deserve to be addressed with abusive language by a fellow PBK member of this forum.

Dear arjun Bhai.

You are not correct in stating that i have abused andrey Bhai. Do i know andrey Bhai personally? Have i ever met andrey Bhai? Has he caused me any harm personally? So why should i abuse him?

i know him only through this forum, by his views and his attitude, and how he responds to other's views. Inspite of repeated, polite requests from myself, ex-l and john Bhai, he has turned a blind eye and not changed his attitude of butting in irrelevantly to every post (for last 9 months). That is where my patience dam was burst and i had an emotional outburst (just as you had an emotional outburst against me when you felt intimidated by my views).

My outburst was not against andrey Bhai but against his persistent shameless attitude which was damaging to the serious discussion of this knowledge. For last 9 months his attitude of butting in irrelevantly has not changed and so how are we going to change his attitude (by just observing him and let him continue to do what he has been doing), or by pointing out first politely (which he has failed to understand) and then by using some harsh words to make him understand that it is high time he changed his habit. But i see that we (john Bhai, ex-l, and myself) have failed to even make him aware of his shortcoming; and you were just content to be a silent spectator to the whole scene, not even once you reminded andrey Bhai to mend his habit, inspite of being aware of it.

shivsena.

[shivsena]

Dear divya.

Thanks for your advice and comments.

It is also possible that the person deep down remains the same and the perception of the people around him changes with time. i have always been outspoken (frank) in my life (in bk as well as pbk) and there was a time when this was considered a quality which most people admired. When i was pro-bk, and speaking highly of them, then i was in good books of all senior sisters and Dadis. But when i became a pbk and started speaking about the short-comings of bk knowledge, then they felt intimidated and suddenly i became arrogant and cynical in their eyes.

The same thing is being repeated in the pbk family. i have learned to take the comments in my stride and i will always do and say what i feel is right, without having any fear of what people might think.

shivsena.

[john]

All of us are in the tamo stage but that doesn't permit us to be unpleasant to others. After recognizing ShivBaba, one has to be wary of our thoughts, speech and actions, otherwise we have to pay for it.[/b]

Dear Divya

It has become very difficult to have a reasonable discussion in the PBK section any more. Why? Because there is someone who is acting like a mad person poking fun.

I am sorry to have to name you AndreyBhai, but you are making the difficult seem impossible. I have tried many times to have reasonable discussion to what I consider to be important points. Alas, it is turning into a farce. Really, i say this with no malice.

The person in question tries the patience to breaking point ... If someone prod ... prod ... prods you until you lose your temper and then someone comes in the room and says, "why, are you acting like that how rude". They haven't seen what has gone on before to lead to that situation.

That, I feel is your (Divya's) position, coming into the forum at this late stage. You are coming after a year long struggle to get any sensible discussions going without disrespectful, irrelevant interruptions.

It would be nice to have the patience and tolerance of ShivBaba, but really would he even put up with this?

[arjun]

It would be nice to have the patience and tolerance of ShivBaba, but really would he even put up with this?

Om Shanti. There are many Discussion VCDs where some souls have argue with ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) in a hot temper/loud voice. Some even went to the extent of pointing their hands at Baba in anger. But he was very cool.

Even in the Discussion CD 151/152, which Shivsena Bhai quotes very often, a particular PBK would raise the pitch of his voice very high and Baba was his cool self and had to request the concerned PBK to cool down.

In one of the Discussion CDs (recorded at Mumbai) that I saw recently, a PBK mother who keeps arguing with Baba in almost every discussion class went to the extent of indirectly saying that there is a ghost in Baba. But even then she is allowed to sit in the first row just in front of Baba and Baba replies to all her questions patiently.

At the most, whenever someone asks too simple questions which could have been answered by any BK, Baba asks him/her to undergo the basic/Advance Course once again to understand the basics before raising questions in the discussion classes.

Maximum arguements take place in the discussions at Mumbai mini-Madhubans only, but that has not stopped Baba from visiting that mini-Madhubans.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[john]

ArjunBhai,

That is nice to hear :D.

Let us all try and keep the forum as positive as possible. Maybe more examples of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit will help.

[arjun]

You are not correct in stating that I have abused andrey Bhai;

Shivsena Bhai wrote in the thread "Who is the God of Gita - Krishna, Ram or Shiva Baba?" on 29.06.07:

Andrey Bhai has no idea of what he himself is speaking, so it is most unlikely he will ever understand what I am trying to say in these last 9 months. It is no use speaking to him or writing to him. It is like bashing your head against a stone wall, where the only possibililty is to break your own head, nothing will happen to the wall. God save me from souls like andrey. He is the most persistently incorrigible irritating soul I have ever met.

Shivsena Bhai wrote in other threads:

I agree with you 100% that andrey should just stop replying to any post in the PBK forum and if he does not stop this compulsive obssessive habit of butting in and replying irrelevantly to every post (which is detrimental to the forum itself), then the administrators should do something about it, as a healthy discussion of knowledge is turning into a mockery (like a joker who has been let loose in a circus, who does not know when to stop his pranks).

You will be punished very soon, if you don't stop replying irrelevantly on this PBK forum.

"If Murlis get burnt out, then I will hold andrey Bhai responsible, just as he is burning the hearts of those who are on this forum, by his irresponsible, irrelevant replies."

Is this a language recommended by ShivBaba in either the Sakar Murlis or the Avyakt Vanis that Shivsena Bhai Bhai believes?

I have already replied why I have been silent to Andrey Bhai's posts. And this has been mainly because of the valuable advice of Shivsena Bhai to me very long back on this forum to remain impartial. If most members do not like Andrey Bhai's posts, it is upto the Admin to take any further action. Although members have found Andrey Bhai's posts to be irrelevant on many occasions, but he has never used abusive language like Shivsena Bhai. The abusive language used by Shivsena Bhai may not appear to be abusive for some members and might be considered to be a fitting reply to Andrey Bhai, but from the point of view of Murlis and Avyakt Vanis, it is definitely abusive.

Although Shivsena Bhai has crossed the limit many times as evidenced above, and although many PBKs do not like his style of writing nobody ever asked Admin to take action against him, but he has used such language against Andrey Bhai that creates terror in the minds of fellow members. The only option left for members like me is to remain silent and watch helplessly.

I request the Admin to take appropriate steps so that healthy discussion takes place between the members without such obstacles. Personally speaking my only suggestion is that wherever members find some posts to be irrelevant or inappropriate, we can be silent rather than continuing the debate. I hope this happens to be my last post on this topic.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[john]

ArjunBhai

You are correct AndreyBhai has never used abusive language, yet he has upset many users of the forum and not just in the PBK section.

I believe AndreyBhai does not want anyone posting outside of his understanding and comfort zone, but we can not limit ourselves to that. I will take a break from posting and hopefully come back refreshed with some points I would like to get clarified.

If AndreyBhai, still insisted on playing snakes and ladders and interrupts with no real purpose, then I will make an official complaint to admin. If nothing is done then, really I don't know what else to do.

I feel enough is enough and it's time to make advancements in our understanding, rather than pointless squabbles.

[shivsena]

Dear arjun Bhai.

Thanks for labelling me as a terrorist, who is causing terror in the minds of PBKs. So i feel that it is time for me to take leave from this forum and give peaceful nights to my brothers.

Consider this to be my last post and i shall never disturb you again. If i have caused any pain to anybody, then please forgive and forget.

OK. Goodbye and happy churning and peaceful exchange of views.

shivsena.

[pbkdivya]

It has become very difficult to have a reasonable discussion in the PBK section any more. Why? Because there is someone who is acting like a mad person poking fun. I am sorry to have to name you AndreyBhai, but you are making the difficult seem impossible. I have tried many times to have reasonable discussion to what I consider to be important points, alas, it is turning into a farce, really I say this with no malice. The person in question tries the patience to breaking point ...

Dear john Bhai,

I just don't understand why are you interfering the discussion between shivsena Bhai and me. Before you put names for others, make sure you are perfect.

Om Shanti, divya

[pbkdivya]

One incident where you and I differ, shivasena, is that I am actually grateful for andrey's involvement (although I am concerned for the PBKs PR image). For me andrey is a wonderful teacher in reverse. By his comments, he actually inspires me to go and learn more about the reality of the stuff he comes out with. Subjects which I otherwise only had a passing awareness of.

Dear ex-l Bhai

You are a knowledgeable soul. Only a knowledgeable soul will never see the defects of others.

Dear arjun Bhai,

Please call shivsena Bhai back so that he can continue to post his views. By tolerating him, you are becoming stronger in the self. Moreover he is member of the PBK family. We have to back up each other.

Om Shanti, divya

[arjun]

Om Shanti. I knew that Shivsena Bhai would feel offended by my words as always. But I have expressed what I felt.

I have already said many times that I (and possibly many other PBK members of this forum) have no objection to his discussing advance knowledge or criticising it or proving it to be false. It is only his personal comments in inappropriate language that is objectionable to me (and possibly others). He has been using abusive language against Andrey Bhai and many others since a long time, but when I said that I am afraid to read his posts he feels hurt. He should apply the same formula while addressing others. I have not labelled him a terrorist as he is wrongly inferring from my post. I only wish to say that there cannot be healthy discussions in an atmosphere of fear.

Anyways, I do not like him to leave and wish that he continues to post in this forum in a cordial atmosphere. He has made valuable contribution to the forum that has been acknowledged by one and all. Most of the questions asked by him and answered by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) have even been circulated to all the PBKs across the world. I hope he would excuse me if he is hurt by my comments and continues to post.

It is in anticipation of such situations only that ShivBaba (through Brahma Baba) discouraged formation of Committes for discussions and ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) did not allow setting up of separate discussion forums for PBKs. If we wish to prove Him wrong, we must create such cordial atmosphere where Godly knowledge could be discussed without fear or favour.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[fluffy bunny]

You are a knowledgeable soul. Only a knowledgeable soul will never see the defects of others.

To be honest Divya, I do not only see andrey's intention. I feel it viscerally and it makes me feel sick. On many ocassions, I am left with this choked feeling like I am being attacked or psychically hammered down in an attempt to supress my voice.

I agree with Shivsena that too often, andrey's posts are irrelevant, irritating; and even designed to be so. It is as if he enjoys it or it gives him pleasure.

I agree with Shivsensa that you too ought be careful of your position as a newcomer to the forum, especially if you are going to come in and start laying down the law of what others should or should not do, should or should not be. You have no idea what we have been through. Best go back and read over some of it.

As John wisely and sensitively points out, it does appear that when conversation moves out of Andrey's comfort zone, he appears to feels the need to to bash it back into place with incredible stupidity, below even his own intelligence. ("He has come ... he has come").

For anyone attempting to construct or explore an intelligent or precise discussion, it is like some irritating kid banging on a drum to gain attention during a conversation between adults. And so I understand Shivsena's sentiments.

I have given my best advice. Andrey needs to work out his need to do basic service in an environment where it is appreciated, not here, and find some balance between the 4 main subjects. He also needs to consider the public impression he creates of the face of BK and PBK.

For me he is perfect because he demonstrates clearly what the blocked mentality of too many of the BK-types is like.

[john]

I just don't understand why are you interfering the discussion between shivsena Bhai and me. Before you put names for others, make sure you are perfect.

Dear Divya

This is an open forum. What you write on here is for open discussion. If you want it private, use 'private messages'.

I was merely trying to explain the situation over the past year to you. You talk of Shivasena and his behaviour, and already you show no manners.

[arjun]

I just don't understand why are you interfering the discussion between shivsena Bhai and me. Before you put names for others, make sure you are perfect.

Om Shanti. I agree with John Bhai and ex-l Bhai.

I do not know since how long you have been reading this forum. But, if you have actually started reading this forum recently, then you will have to take some time to study the methods and norms of open discussion forums. I am sure that you will be able to adjust with all of us very soon.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun