God and the Devil are Lies

[bro neo]

There is no God and there is no Satan; not as par the definition of the BKWSU and most other monotheistic religions. This is a bold personal statement I am making to make those of you who are reading this (who don’t want to kill me for saying this) think.

Humans are born needing tons of care and love in order to survive. This is hardwired and truth. Babies without a caretaker will die. All grown ups in this world are still in an unforgiving place where death, famine, unforeseen natural disasters and war are as common as h2o.

It’s so reasonable when people superimpose this sense of needing a caretaker from their childhoods into their adult life that they assume there is a universal parent taking care of them until they ascend, die, are reborn, or whatever so long as they are a ‘good’ boy or girl. Be ‘naughty’ and suffer the flames of hell.

But the Gods of the monotheistic religions are created by a person, or small group of people who determines the characteristics of what is right and wrong according to where, when and how they live. The definition of what is right and wrong are different all over the world. A profit or medium for God creates this God out of their impression and belief of what is justice and then they say this should be so for everyone else.

We are learning more and more about our capacities as human being day by day. What we know is that there is a primal animal side of us and there is also a part of us which can reflect on our self, judge others and create freely in the realm of imagination. Our ability to use language is also miraculous.

In our imagination, belief system, and minds is where God is, when some one tells us God is this or that, that God then comes into our realm of imagination and becomes our new parent. The perfect caregiver we have always sought to make us grow into the perfect people deep down inside we know we have the potential to be.

But this is not God. This is a lie. This is us using a capacity of being human that we know little about. Become free, don’t take others values and dogmas and delusional beliefs of absolutes and decide for yourself (unless you are really lost then adopting someone elses God is a very good idea). Yes most of us had screwed up or at least imperfect upbringings that if it were changed we would be much greater and a new ‘childhood’ in a sense, could make us grand. But we don’t need another’s imaginary God that was created by their conscious or subconscious mind. The Gods of others are there for their political and self serving reasons.

Create your own God, focus your attention into your own God and be God, as real as God can be in this world. A God that influences the variables of day to day life with the power of our emotions and thinking, not to mention our psychic connection with others and the world around us. Of course if you create a God based on bad values, watch out.

As for the devil… this is just the primal instincts within all of us that come out when we are not house trained. By having a God, or being God, the God parent puts this pet animal in check and can train it not to pee on the couch.

By the way, I am sure a lot of you appose what I am saying here. Good, bring it on.

[paulkershaw]

Hey Neo

Not everyone will oppose your posting! I am in agreement with lots of it ... especially the part about being your own God, makes sense to me in many ways.

[bro neo]

Thanks paulkershaw, and I am sure that's because great minds think alike. First round's on me, but ya gotta drink something strong 8). I mainly said that thing about opposition to my theory because nowadays there's an abstract war (sometimes hot, sometimes cold) going on between those who put all their faith in the old spiritual ways and those of us wanting real reform. I want to bring out our enemies so they can show me what they got.

Now it's not because I want a fight ... or peace for that matter.

It's cause I know I don't know everything, and I know I need other people's perspective to be able to see the big picture. For us to share and debate about such a spiritually controversial topic will do us a lot of good, IMO.

If the style of my writing seems to be more assertive nowadays this is mainly because I am finally finding a perspective on reality I can believe in. This has been a light in a long dark night for my soul. Being confident in what I believe in may set me up for a hard fall, but for sure it will take me to great heights and what doesn't kill me will only make me get full out obliterating revenge after I change what backsided me in the first place.

And unless some one is able to give me a good arss kicking here, the next thread I am going to start is, "How to make God", DIY.

[fluffy bunny]

I mainly said that thing about opposition to my theory because nowadays there's an abstract war (sometimes hot, sometimes cold) going on between those who put all their faith in the old spiritual ways and those of us wanting real reform.

I strong agree with this comment. Its unfortunate that the old school BKWSU really cant get it that they are part of that old monolithic mentality ... but there are still many individuals at that level and they need to be served. The BK might even be the better option.

If I was to be generous to them, I would say in generally terms, they were a good step up in the face of the oppositing. All the same, they seem to want to hold back and pull down those that want to fly higher.

As far as your 'capital G' God and 'capital D' Devil, I have to agree as well. But I do think there is a channelled entity that is playing with the God archetype within the BKWSU framework for whatever reason. Since joining this forum my world view has expanded and I have almost come to believe in a pantheistic world view, the existence of many realms of "gods and goddess" albeit we call them entities, aliens, spirits whatever.

There may be a better technical term for how I am feeling right now. I accept the existence of the god or spirit realms (whether they be real of archetypal) but I also believe in the existence of a 'capital G' God ... an unlimited, universal, largely creative energy whether it be "spiritual" or emperical.

The BKs "pea under the shell" trick is to say that the recently discovere Shiva is that energy. I am not so sure. He might be a good guy, he might be a delusional devil ... I do not know. But I separate the two and demote Shiva and Brahma to the god realms. In truth, as wonderful as he was, I don't even think Lekhraj Kirpalani makes it into a god or even "saint realm" just yet. High but not that high until he deal with the karma he set rolling with his daughters.

[pilatus]

Dear all,

Good topic - thanks to bro neo for starting it. I can now be considered as a representative of the monotheistic faiths you refer to. Remember that I've dabbled with BK over last six years, but I am also drawn to (especially Tibetan) Buddhism, have an Indian-bodied wife and am in the process of returning to my spiritual roots, at least for this life (namely Anglican Christianity). I am currently on track to receive confirmation in November (in the post-45 phase of life) and am following the path towards becoming a Tertiary in the Society of Saint Francis (SSF for short).

I don't accept in a literal sense the traditional images of God (big man with white beard and sandals - see the Simpsons) and Satan or the Devil (horns and pitchfork). Rather I agree with most of what you've written. One of the key phrases with which I identify a lot is

This has been a light in a long dark night for my soul

For me, as I've written elsewhere God/Devil, positive/negative, light/dark, male/female, Baba/Maya is all about the duality of the divine within us and our great ability to ignore/suppress/repress it, either within ourselves or others.

So we can recognize aspects of ourselves as both god-like and devilish. The self development "work" is all about fostering the divine potential within and letting the negative aspects go - not by attacking or rejecting them but by accepting and loving them, so that their hold on us fades.

For me, one of the best artworks to capture this is the film "Beautiful Mind" in which Russell Crowe played a very brilliant but troubled mathematician.

Lots of love and light to all you unbelievers and pantheists :P.

[abrahma kumar]

Have been reading the posts with great interest and no little marvel. Even as we speak I am absorbed in the book that has an accompanying website here. Once completed I hope to contribute somethings to the books, movies etc part of the forum.

On a personal note, I have a feeling that the book will have an invaluable place amongst the artefacts of this, my spiriitual enlightenment period.

Thanks to you all for sharing your thoughts.

regards
abek

[bansy]

Abek,

THis has been in my bookmarks for some time.

You can watch the google video of that book, God Delusion, by Dawkins. It comes under a documentary, Root of All Evil, in 2 parts. Just search in Google videos. Here's a link; video.

So, I actually haven't seen them yet so tell me what's about and so maybe this weekend instead of swimming ... the things we have to give up eh ? :P

Here's also the wiki link; The Root of All Evil

[abrahma kumar]

Thanks bansy. I know some folk (haven't seen our flying carpet travel agent around here recently :oops:) that would not dream of 'giving up' swimming, especially if in the sea by some tropical beach, for the sake of watching a video. "Calling alladin" :lol:.

Anyway, I am having a ball reading the book. Thus far, one impression i am not able to shake off is that parents AND educators ought to leave no stone unturned in ensuring that science (especially the study of nature and the universe around us) is made a lot more appealing and accessible to children. We all need to understand what it is that scientists offer us by way of explanation of who we are and how we fit into this planet we live on.

It doesn't really pay for us to be vague, or outright ignorant, of the facts and high- probability explanations that scientists share with us on many things that we deem to be solely in the realm of religion.

In this vein I was remarking to a friend that it seems as if one of the great gifts we humans hand over to these "G-O-D men" is our capacaity to be truly amazed by the universe we inhabit. We give up a natural wonderment, a curiosity and innocence that knows no bounds. And once knowledge begins to fill the intellect, off we are ready to go again on another adventure of learning!

I think that it is this natural sense of wonderment that gets (we allow it to be) hijacked. Seems too that the one of the chief ministers of the "reclamation phase" is the good old question mark! Yes, that same hooked symbol that we BKs are told to have nothing to do with because "questions have the habit of forming a queue". (Anyone remember that oblox?).

So as a not much learned human I ask: If God and the Devil are Lies, why surrender?

Do enjoy your weekend bansy.

[andrey]

Despite the fanfare title i think that you have just described the aspect of God like a parent. The way each one has his own parents - a universal parent that is parent to all.

[howiemac]

I used to believe in God, as a supreme being with a personality. I no longer believe that there is such a being, and that I was in communication with that being. What I had thought was communication with God, I now see as communication with my own higher self, and / or the higher selves of others.

So for me, the spiritual quest has changed from achieving union with God, to achieving union of my mundane everyday self with my higher ('true') self. This true self is already, and always, in harmonic unity with all other true selves - in this way we are all linked, or 'one'.

If I think of God at all now, it is as that transcendent oneness that we are all a part (and reflection) of: the divinity that unites us all. Worship of this God makes no sense, and neither does prayer to it. In fact God is no longer relevant to me personally - but I appreciate the concept as a means of communicating on divinity with others who "believe in God".

This is a big shift for me - even a year ago I still believed inherently in God as a separate being with a personality who I could develop a relationship with. I was still looking outside myself for spiritual support, and for enlightenment. Now I believe that the best and strongest spiritual support comes from within the self. So, spiritual progress comes through independence and self reliance, and not from surrender to a God or guru or religion, or from dependence on any other being or group.

(from my blog on spiritualsun.org)

[abrahma kumar]

Despite the fanfare title I think that you have just described the aspect of God like a parent. The way each one has his own parents - a universal parent that is parent to all.

Hi andrey, welcome back. The way I understand it, your post typifies one of the key issues that the author brings to our attention. If you have not yet done so, why not read the book yourself before glibly grafting your oblox onto anything that you perceive can serve to validate your superstitious beliefs.

I agree with the author when he shares the opinion that if scientists can ever prove that God and the devil ARE lies, religious types will continue to keep their heads buried in the sand and assert that they (scientists) are not qualified to comment on such 'elevated matters'. Or they will say that scientists do not have the type of mind in which spiritual matters can take root and o sthey are not qualified to comment on the existence of G-O-D.

But, if the existence of God and/or the Devil IS proven by scientific methods, then those same religious-types will feel so vindicated that their religious fervour will know no bounds; and the scientist will be hailed as a hero. Can you imagine the religious wars that will be fought over just whose G-O-D it is that science would have proven?!

So okay, the verdict may still be out on whether God and the devil ARE lies but till the jury returns is it be okay for me ask the so-called G-O-D men/women for proofs to the contrary?

"God and the devil are lies". Let's discuss.

[pilatus]

Sorry abek, I agree completely with andrey - we really need to avoid jumping on his input, it's becoming a bit of a habit! :wink:

God (or our higher self if you prefer) does have Father-like qualities. We tend to focus a lot on this in various world faiths (perhaps because it's true?!). As I've already said elsewhere:

I am now personally comfortable with a blended Christian/Eastern view of three aspects of God as:
1) Incorporeal Father/creator
2) Incarnate/embodied/time limited in one or more enlightened human beings - some (much) more than other
3) Omnipresent Holy Spirit/shabd

I am also happy that different human beings/faith groups relate to different aspects of God and experience/see/feel that connection in many varied ways. This is often very closely linked to our cultural roots (in this life, at least) and how we (prefer to/best) interact with the world, e.g. some people are more visual, some are great thinkers, some are beautifully clear and simple etc. Sometimes I see God's presence in terms of visual/third eye facts and other times I feel his hand/presence as gentle vibration around my head.

A friend/guru asked me to contemplate the question of God some time ago and the image which came to me was of a baby connected by an umbilical cord to the universe! (Perhaps linked to 2001, Space Odyssey)

On the subject of Richard Dawkins, I am very ambivalent. Of course, we've all heard a lot about "God Delusion" but I am not planning to read it any time soon! While I might have when I was a teenager studying science - his book the Selfish Gene was probably one of the contributors to my turning away from religion/faith/God.

I am now in a very different space and time, so when I recently read an interview with him in the Times by a spiritual/religious lady, it just confirmed my view that you either choose to believe in God or not, depending on your experience. No amount of cerebral argument is going to change someone's view of God - which is why so many "religious" wars have been fought in His name! And this thread may be just another example.

All of you have a great weekend - am off to the English seaside. 8)

[bro neo]

Loved reading everyone’s opinions, sharing and links.

If God as the Supreme Parent existed he would be guiding each one of us individually in an indisputable way from the time we were born to show us the path. Instead, what we get is a bunch of different spiritual groups with their own high medium who claims it is them, and them alone who are the special child and gets the messages from the OG and thus should control everyone else. This is spiritually speaking.

In more real life terms, what a lot of us are born into (or some of us, like me) is a couple of totally clueless parents who screw up our lives with an upbringing that makes us malfunction adults in need of years of reformation just to be 'OK'.

Evolution does seem to be guiding humanity into higher and deeper levels of perception but to say certain individuals have evolved an ability to finally communicate directly with the Big Cheese is also unreasonable because they all say they are THE path and everyone else is wrong. So this is either saying there is not One Supreme, or that these chosen mediums are channeling something else, probably something out of their subconscious and that they are just charismatic leaders driven by the same instincts as the rest of us; survival, security, love, approval, power and control.

Looking at a God from a different perspective is much more contemporary. There are indeed intelligent laws guiding the ebb and flow of our universe. To understand them and to incorporate them into how we manage ourselves and society is a much more logical and sane way of interpreting messages from a higher intelligence. Hence my respect for science and its willingness to redefine its laws as new information is established and proven.

The Devil as a single being who encourages and manipulates us to commit vice is also not very logical. Our subconscious, which is programmed by our habits of the past and perhaps even the habits of our parents, via DNA, which for a lot of people can be called sinful behavior, is a much better definition of the Devil. This mechanical intelligence that operates within us from habit is what makes us do 'evil' time and again. But this same intelligence is what makes us remember how to ride a bike even after years of not riding one. Our primal instincts and the intense brain drugs that are release when we act on them are also a better definition of the Devil then some being constantly trying to coerce us.

Over coming subconscious ‘evil’ or primal ‘sin’ is about reprogramming our minds with constant conscious thinking and acting. That’s what having a God and putting absolute faith in It does, we constantly bombard our minds with new thinking and faith and we constantly act differently changing our programming. Doing this, however, we are becoming what another person (or their God) wants us to become not what is necessarily what is right and good. The love we feel and security we fell (more brain drugs) from our new religious group is what changes us and makes us believe and overcome the old patterns (less enticing brain drugs).

[abrahma kumar]

Pilatus, thanks for the feedback. However you have not said anything that would dissuade me from exploring the topic on the basis of its title i.e. God and the Devils are Lies.

As per my personality, i read your offering: "God (or our higher self if you prefer)" as the classical way in which one might attempt to camoflague G-O-D in clothing that 'any resonable person ought not to question, much less deny! Because after all what we are talking about is "one's OWN higher self" (except that what we are really talking about is a Supernatural God and not one's higher self) What is the point we are trying to make when we disguise G-O-D in this way? That to question the existence of G-O-D is to somehow foolishly divorce oneself from one's own elevated nature?

Because your other comments about abek jumping on andrey's input are untrue i wont even respond to them, except to say that thank God that we are not over here to participete in some sort of popularity contest. And please do not ever be mistaken into assuming that i fail to realise that i too was once an unquestioning believer in G-O-D or should i refine that to be God Shiva? Nowadays I am just as happy to say that when i examine more closely what these G-O-D men tell us about their God assertions, I am left wondering.

Have a great English seaside time and catch you on the forum some other time.

"God and the devil are lies". Let's discuss.

regards
abek

[fluffy bunny]

Undercutting this, within the context of this forum, is the evidence assertion that Lekhraj Kirpalani was not conscious but deluded to a number of degrees about what happened to him, that for potentially as ong as the first 20 years there was no monotheistic, personal God as given in the "invisible Krishna" that the "bindi dot Shiva" has been recreated in.

What I am attempting to underline here is that the concept the BKs work with is largely God Krishna worship transposed onto another concept, that of an incorporeal Shiva lingum.

What is clear from the earliest documentation is that the Prajapati Brahma Kumaris believed in a "universal god energy", the Brahm, and that Lekhraj Kirpalani had "realised" and transmitted the experience of this. Again, all traditional parts of Hindu experience either from the Saddhu tradition (and we need to look at the experience and relationship of Lekhraj Kirpalani with the Bengali saddhu he met whilst he was in Calcutta), Shaktism (which involves the invocation and mediumship of spirits) and "energetic transmission" which is widespread in Hindu, Buddhist and native traditions. Perhaps absolute states, e.g. God IS The Oneness.

So what do we see in the current BKWSU? Have the Krishna/Lekhraj Kirpalani bhagats super-imposed their Bhakti onto the raw experience of an universal "god" and are they attempting to cut individuals off from that unlimited source channelling BK followers' connection through them ... creating a God and Devil (Maya) lie to create a framework based on fear and sustained through worldly punishment and reward schemes ... to sustain their worldly and spiritual statuses.

My position is similar to howiemacs with the addition of a god or spirit realm between us and the absolute.

Yes, there is Yoga with the higher self. Yes, the experience of the higher self could easily be mistake for a god experience. Yes, the channelling of the higher self could easily be mistaken for the channelling of a personal God. But also that we are subject to the influence of many spirits, gods, kami, demons ... whatever you want to call them. Originally the word demons was not used quite so negatively as today ... and "devils" as in negative disturbed spirits.

To underline what brother neo wrote ... the corrupted mirror through which we view all this is that of our limited, damaged, multiply programmed self. So what hope do we have of seeing "what is" in the first place, rather than that of our own unresolved ghosts? Be those ghosts "Krishna", Lekhraj Kirpalani, our abuse parents/priest etc.