1955, no mention of God Shiva

[fluffy bunny]

I've never read or heard anywhere that "the children needed to have their (Bhakti) beliefs reinforced", although I can agree using Bhakti words and images would have been, and remains, a good way to capture them.

My response would be that those are theories, excuses and speculations put about by the Brahma Kumaris at a later date, in their mid-period, and if you want to progress you have to scrub yourself clean of them and chuck them out too.

Without any hard evidence to support them, they are not worth a lot.

[Roy]

My response would be that those are theories, excuses and speculations put about by the Brahma Kumaris at a later date, in their mid-period, and if you want to progress you have to scrub yourself clean of them and chuck them out too.

I don't believe the BKs have ever made such a claim; this is the teaching of advance knowledge. Perhaps someone else could explain it better, but i believe that this is what was happening in the early days... these souls were captured for the most part as you put it, through the experiences of Bhakti, such as visions, and trance messages. These are not the things of knowledge, and the souls like Prajapita-Ram did not experience them; hence they eventually left the Yagya after a few years.

[fluffy bunny]

What is the earliest evidence of using the term "God Shiva" by the BKs that we have?

They claim that they said "God Shiva" was a lingum, a thumb, an oval and then a dot.

So far we have got to the idea of a lingum ... but it is clear they still think Lekhraj Kirpalani is God incarnate and the lingum is his incorporeal form.

How old is the first bona fide evidence of there being a God Shiva ... and then let's try and fill in the missing steps or pieces.

Jagdish Chander, the great fabulist, joined the BKs in 1952 aged 23 and therefore *BEFORE* God Shiva appeared. His first Yoga was with Lekhraj Kirpalani as God. 3 years later we find there is still no God Shiva.

How much of an influence did he have in the creation of the new Knowledge? Is this his English language material?

[arjun]

Why did *they* have to have their heads filled with nonsense about Lekhraj Kirpalani being God for 20 years (approx), only to spend the next 20 years having it removed from their heads?

Actually, in the beginning of the Yagya there was little knowledge. All those who entered the Om Mandali were Hindu devotees who had faith in Hindu mythology. So, in order to enable them to develop faith on the incarnation of Shiva, they were made to have visions of Hindu deities. Whatever little knowledge there was in the Yagya was given by Brahma Baba's partner (Piu) in the form of clarification of Sanskrit Gita. But due to differences of opinion he had to leave the Yagya (as he did not have any vision), but Brahma Baba (who had a lot of visions) stayed on, but added his own opinions and interpretations to Shiva's words and increased the Bhakti factor to project himself as God's medium. And the Yagya had to be continued until the permanent or appointed Chariot of Shiva re-entered the Yagya. That is why whatever happened was a part of the drama to segregate the Bhakti souls and the wise, intelligent souls in the Yagya.

[fluffy bunny]

... but Brahma Baba (who had a lot of visions) stayed on, but added his own opinions and interpretations to Shiva's words and increased the Bhakti factor to project himself as God's medium.

Point of order please ... the topic title is "no mention of God Shiva until after 1955".

According to all the original documentation so far, Lekhraj Kirpalani did not project himself as God's medium ... Lekhraj Kirpalani projected himself as God.

The partner is said to have died in 1941 but we had Lekhraj Kirpalani Bhakti going on before that. When is the earliest evidence of there being a Shiva in the religion? Late 50s or 1960s?

Whatever little knowledge there was in the Yagya was given by Brahma Baba's partner (Piu)

Hang on, we jumped from Sevakram to Piyu here.

I thought Piu or Piyu was like a spirit who was said to speak through a woman/women medium whilst sitting next to Lekhraj Kirpalani. Had the business partner already died by then and that was his ghost coming back? Were the Piyu Vanis only spoken after 1941 and for how long?

Is this a theory or has it been confirmed? I could make sense because was Piyu not very strict? We need more information.

In another post, I pointed out something that was point out to me ... mention of the Akash Vanis.

We badly need a timeline draw and I still want to know how and when Shiva entered the picture (real version, not the usual retrospective BK/PBK theories. When, historically, did it consciously happen and make them think back and reinterpret what happened?

[warrior]

Actually, in the beginning of the Yagya there was little knowledge.

Dear Arjun,
Do you have any Sakar Murli with the original date? If so, please would it be possible for u to scan the entire Murli and post it here? It doesnt matter if it is in Hindi.

[John2]

Brahma was not worshipped much.
Shiva is worshipped a lot.
So it makes sense from a service in India point of view to introduce Shiva as God because Brahma as God would not get such good results.
Did service expansion in India coincide with introduction of Shiva?
In the 1950s.