Picture Of Shiva Baba

[shivshankar]

I think this is it :D : http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.p ... gShiva.jpg

Or some kind of it.

[bansy]

Tete,

The issue is
(i) is ShivBaba's remembrance in a physical form or in a corporeal body or in an incorporeal body
(ii) where is the "home" of ShivBaba - is it in Paramdham Supreme abode, inside a Chariot, or just in your intellect (home).

Besides, when Supreme Soul says "I am a soul", and indicates that this is a point of light, then to how many souls in this world would conjure up an image in their brain/intellect that it is actually a physical picture of a dot of light (as given by shivshankar). Hence, in my own opinion, however you try to interpret it it will always be a physical image. It is said that if you meditate hard and long enough that you will merge and combine into this light and find yourself immersed (other members have had differing experiences of this), but the issue in this thread comes down to the crux of what exactly is the "soul". It seems there are still many interpretations of it, and so as usual, my interpretation is better than yours, and so on, and so on.

The problem is having to describe or putting God/Supreme Soul into words. Hence you've moved from a spiritual to a physical concept. Murlis do that. I don't think you need words to do this. Words are human expressions and expressions that try to define what is natural, but there is no need to describe what is natural. But we humans are all brought up in a world where we are bounded by words, the words define what and who we are, and maybe simply doing away with words will be the easier.

[tete]

Bansy,

Thank you for the explanation. For someone like me, it helps to understand things a wee better. As you know in private I have had many a BK, ex-BK (mainly) and some PBKs (mainly to explain words) teachers. As you may know my 'family' member doesn't like to discuss these things or perhaps thinks my little brain won't be able to wrap itself around such discussions, or who knows?!?

I once went and asked what was 'Paramdham' (I would notice that many people would mention it) and well for some unknown reason said family member decided to tell me. I was seated on the carpet with my laptop on the coffee table and said family member sat in an ornate chair. Thus, the lesson began, but I having never heard such utterance before (I never knew said family member knew Hindi) found my jaw drop, and was too in shock to grasp what ever it was that was said. Soon I discovered, that said family member was giving lectures (beyond my level) with words that even my own XBKchat teacher did not know. If you know who said family member is, I imagine it makes sense, but I find your explanations much more understandable and it does help us non-BKs.

You know, the funny thing is I never knew I was doing BK type things (life style) until I found XBKchat and then these places (split forums). I never really asked to many questions out in the open because having said family member made me aware that learning in baby steps is best done via private questions. I have been lucky in that I found some rather nice people that were willing to help me out and allow for a better understanding of BKs and PBKs.

So, I thank you for always being willing to explain things to me, as I am curious, but as I have always said, I am just doing it for learning purposes and by now most of you know that. I do like the aspect of seeking out spirituality and goodness in all people and that part has always given me a good feeling (touchy feelie, that's me). I guess in one way or another we are all trying to get to 'Paramdham' (heaven...that's what the family member told me my equivalent was) in our own way.

Kind Regards,
Tete

[tete]

I think this is it :D : http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.p ... gShiva.jpg

Or some kind of it.

Thanks. So, the picture is not of a person, but rather the spiritual essence/body of Shiva Baba as Bansy points out below.

Bansy:

(i) is ShivBaba's remembrance in a physical form or in a corporeal body or in an incorporeal body
(ii) where is the "home" of ShivBaba - is it in Paramdham Supreme abode, inside a Chariot, or just in your intellect (home).

[john]

Thanks. So, the picture is not of a person, but rather the spiritual essence/body of Shiva Baba as Bansy points out below.

Hi Tete
The most important topic(or should be) in the world of BKs/PBKs is that of remembrance or Yoga and how it is done. The aim being purity, peace, happiness etc. Yet there is no universal agreement at least between BKs and PBKs on how this is done.

Does one remember Shiva(i.e. the image of a point of light) in the Soul World or in the Chariot, Brahma Baba to BKs and Virendra Dev Dixit to PBKs.

Through my studies of available Murlis I would say 95% of them refer to remembering Shiva in the Soul World. The PBKs have grasped onto the 5% grey area and decided it is a secret code that Shiva really meant he should be remembered in the Chariot of Virendra Dev Dixit.

[andrey]

@John,

I asked you where is this home, because is the explanation that is is very far away, above the material universe, is this explanation sufficient for you. If it is so, then if we had been there like souls without bodies, if there is no conciousness there, no awareness, only peace and silence there will be no memory of this. This is why the atmosphere of there, of peace and silence we can feel here, whilst on earth and in corporeal body. It is said that we have to spread vibratons of peace and silence. If we can do this whilst livig in a body, if the Supreme Soul comes in a body, he would also do this, as an Ocean of peace and ocean of silence. If now how ould his praise be proved, Ocean of bliss etc. If the Supreme Soul is doing this somewhere we would natirally remember this. Why would we remember the home if the Supreme Soul is here on earth. We would remember where he is, we would remember the body he is in, it will feel like our home for us his company, the atmosphere he spreads of peace and silence. The feeling of home comes from the one who lives inside and not from the place. If our home is the home of God and also us souls and if God comes this earth will also become like our home.

In the Murlis it is also said that we remember the soul, but the body is surely also remembered. It is not a matter of what we should remember or not. We remember naturally based on our understanding. We cannot tell anyone remeber this or that if it is not natural it will be foceful. So if you remeber the home then maybe this is the way for you. For me, i beleive the matter is not what and whom to remeber, but about whether God has come or not, where, in whom, what does he do etc. Based on this understanding our remebrance will go authomatically. We cannot tell someone remeber this. OK i will. This will be blind faith. Why to remember. Even more when remebrance is rather based on feelings then rational explanation. sometimes we remember some insignificant things, that we don't know why we remember this, but if we remember this it means it is not insignificant for us. For example we see so many new faces in a day. Why do some make impression to us and we remember, other we don't recognize. It could be that those who make impression to us are persons with whom we used to be more associated in the past lives. In the same way, if in the past lives someone has been close to the souls of Ram and Krishna, in the Confluence Age, when God comes in them their remebrance will be easier and automatic.

Anyway i believe the that the ideas from the path of devotion that has been there since long time, they are closer to the correct ideas of God, rather then the scientific explanation. There to God there are attributes like attractive, shy, polyglot, happy, rich, etc. that can only apply to some human form.

@ Bansy

If we are coming from the point that we don't know God, why are we to assume he is above words and comprehension. It could also be that he himself uses words to express himself, like the BKs and PBKs say. It is also said in the Gita God speaks. In the Bible also it is said that in the beginning there used to be speach and the speach was with God. Through words the idea of God can be transmitted. Then maybe based on our understanding and practice if we reach teh stage that is above speach - nirvana then maybe there will be no need for words anymore, we will just be with him with our mind.

[bansy]

If we are coming from the point that we don't know God, why are we to assume he is above words and comprehension. It could also be that he himself uses words to express himself, like the BKs and PBKs say. It is also said in the Gita God speaks. In the Bible also it is said that in the beginning there used to be speach and the speach was with God. Through words the idea of God can be transmitted. Then maybe based on our understanding and practice if we reach teh stage that is above speach - nirvana then maybe there will be no need for words anymore, we will just be with him with our mind.

Maybe I did not phrase myself so well.

When you are in love (if you have done so even in a physical sense) with something or someone or somewhere, there are often no words to even describe it or needed.

Ever eaten something that it was so nice, couldn't say but just give it to another person for them to make up their mind. Or been to a place where the scenery was just beautiful you are lost for words ? Oohs and Ahhs.

I feel the same as with God. Could you also love God and have no words to describe, to be beyond words ? There is no time, space, distance, matter that seperates your connection. God is within you as well as outside you. I have a physical picture of Father Shiva (because the Murli says to do so as per Shrimat), and I also have a "physical" image of Father Shiva also in my intellect because the knowledge says that Father is an indivisible point of light which is ... invisible but seen only with the divine vision ... which means I actually cannot see Him because I am not divine (I am not sure how many people will declare that they are). When someone asks me what is that picture on the sideboard is, I just tell them whether they like it or not, and let them make up their own mind what or who it is. When I am in the physical plane, I have a picture of Father Shiva, when I am in my spiritual plane, I try to see(connect) Father Shiva.

A picture of Father Shiva and photos of corporeal bodies (even if they claim to be chariots) is, for me, a different matter, because then I will definitely be drawn to a physical element of the Chariot body. Corporeal is physical.

If your attempt of divine vision to be able to see the incorporeal within the corporeal is possible, without seeing the corporeal, then I am glad that you can. For me, Father Shiva has entered a corporeal body to do His work, but all I envisage is the incorporeal because it is His image I have in my intellect. But I have high regard for those who are chariots, whether it is Virendra Dev Dixit, Lekhraj Kirpalani or Dadi Gulzar, who do the narration of knowledge. I must not get drawn to Krishna but to Shiva.

[warrior]

For me, I believe the matter is not what and whom to remember, but about whether God has come or not, where, in whom, what does he do…

OK I agree with this statement and to add to it I would say that the entire BK and PBK story will end up in a common ground like this – Can I, Can you, or Can the world outside grasp the understanding that God Supreme Soul has come but cannot be seen with physical eyes? If you cannot see with your eyes and you still need a prove for the coming of Supreme Soul so what is left more to explore about it? I would say - to believe or not to believe that one human soul was chosen to become the number one, the one that is becoming equal to God and this one will also be revealed at the end as God himself on this Earth (or call him ShivBaba)!!

In other words what I want to say is: Can you believe that a human being attains the stage of being God on this Earth? Or how else you want this to be explained? ‘Forget’ about the point of light in Paramdham that is not a big issue anymore the whole problem is that Brahma Baba is gone and now there is a new Baba so do I and do you understand this concept that a human is becoming or will become the living walking God to us all?
:D

[bansy]

Good point warrior.

So what is the problem with all of us ?

[arjun]

The image of a corporeal being is not, which image of Veerendra Dev Dixit is remembered with Shiva, when he was 12, 24, 56, 84 years old?

Since PBKs are not allowed to keep the non-living picture of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit, they do not remember just the corporeal medium. They are told to remember Father Shiv through the living corporeal medium. So, they remember Him through the current body of the Chariot and not the physical image of the current corporeal medium in the past years (like his childhood, youth, etc.).

But there could be exception to this. Suppose a PBK met ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) about 20 years ago and could not meet him or see his latest image because of any particular circumstance, he/she would continue to remember ShivBaba through that corporeal form which he/she has seen 20 years ago.

In Murlis it is said not to remember image of corporeal and not image of Brahma, so therefore even when the Murli was spoken before 1969 it must have been just an image of Shiva as a point of light.

Even before 1969 many BKs used to remember ShivBaba through Brahma Baba and there are many Murlis which direct the children to remember the incorporeal God through His corporeal medium. I am quoting one for immediate reference.
• "Brahma aur Brahmakumar-kumriyon ka aapas may kitnaa love hai kyonki yah ho gaye Ishwariya santaan. Ishwar toh hai niraakaar. Unkay saath love toh saakaar may chaahiye na. Niraakaar ko kaisey love karengey. Aatma shareeer say alag ho jaati hai toh love nahee hota. Aatma aur Parmaatma jab saakaar may milein tab love ho. Niraakaar roop may bhal gaatey rahtey hain – tum maat-pitaa…Tum aao toh tumhaari kripa say hamko sukhh ghanerey milein. ." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 20.01.07, pg 1)

• “Brahma and Brahmakumar-kumaris love each other so much because they are God’s children. God is incorporeal. Love for God is required in corporeal form, isn’t it? How will one love the incorporeal? When the soul separates from the body, then there is no love. Only when the soul and the Supreme Soul meet in corporeal form, would there be love. Although they keep singing about the incorporeal form that – You are our mother and Father….If you come, we would get a lot of pleasure by your grace.” [/color](Revised Sakar Murli dated 20.01.07, pg.1 published by BKs)

Recently I have been reading more points in Murlis about the 'Home' being the supreme abode, the place far away, the place we all come from and shall return,etc etc., for me the Home must be Paramdham, the spiritual home beyond this physical universe.

There is a Murli point which clearly says that the corporeal Chariot of Shiv is His living home. I quote:
• “ShivBaba bhi kahtey hain mai pehley is (Sakar Brahma) ko samjhaata hoon. ShivBaba ka yah chaitanya home hai. Pehley-pehley yah (Brahma) seekhtey hain fir unsay adopted children numberwaar seekh rahey hain. Yah badee guhya baatein hain. Sadgati data patit-paavan khud aakar yah sab raaz samjhaatey hain. Aisey nahee ki vahaan say preranaa kartey hain. Vah toh yahaan aatey hain..” (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli dinaank 23.02.07)

• “ShivBaba also says that I initially explain to this one (corporeal Brahma). This is ShivBaba's living home. First of all this one (Brahma) learns. Then the adopted children are learning from him numberwise. These are very deep matters. The bestower of true salvation, the purifier of the sinful ones comes Himself and explains all these secrets. It is not that he gives inspiration from there. He comes here.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.02.07 published by BKs)

I was curious, is there a 'specific' picture that this is referencing and is it available? Also, is it the 'Old Baba' or is it the 'PBK Baba'?

The picture of ShivBaba refers to the current corporeal Chariot of ShivBaba. In case of PBKs there is no confusion since there is only one Chariot through whom they remember ShivBaba. But in case of BKs there are different methods of remembering God. Some BKs remember Shiv as point of light in the Supreme Abode, some remember point of light Shiv through the picture of Brahma Baba and some remember Shiv through Gulzar Dadi, some remember ShivBaba with the help of the casket of ShivBaba (a white point in the middle of red oval light) and some just remember Brahma Baba's picture.

(ii) where is the "home" of ShivBaba - is it in Paramdham Supreme abode, inside a Chariot, or just in your intellect (home).

Here is another relevant point besides the one on the 'living home' that I quoted in response to john's statement:
• “You have this faith that - Father resides in the middle of this forehead. Father Himself says that I sit in the middle of his forehead. ... If Brahma is there, then ShivBaba is also there. If Brahma is not there, then how will ShivBaba speak? We have always been remembering ShivBaba considering Him to be residing above. Now you children know that we are sitting here with Father. It is not true that ShivBaba is residing above. His idol is worshipped here. These matters are to be understood a lot. You know that Father is an ocean of knowledge. From where does He narrate knowledge? Does He narrate from above? He has come down here. He narrates through the body of Brahma. Many people say that we don't have faith in Brahma. But ShivBaba Himself says through the body of Brahma that ‘Remember me.’ ... Human beings even call, ‘O God Father.’ Then, does that God Father listen? He is called saying, ‘O Liberator, come,’ or will He liberate us while sitting there? Father comes only in the Purushottam Sangamyug (Elevated Confluence Age) of every Kalpa. If someone removes (i.e. neglects) that person itself, in whom He enters then what will he be called! Number one degraded. ... Now you are in minority. They are in majority. So who will accept you? When you increase in numbers, then many will come attracted by your power of Yoga.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 11.01.06, page 1 & 2 published by BKs)

[warrior]

Good point warrior.
So what is the problem with all of us ?

Dear bansy,
There are no problems with anyone here .The question is – do I or do you or whoever consider himself a Brahmin - will ever manage to leave behind the basic thinking about the picture of God and see how can this divine knowledge tally in our lives in a practical way?!! Because putting up a picture of a point of light in front of me won’t do anymore! The journey up and down to and from Parandham has taken us Brahmins to no where after 70 years.

[andrey]

I actually cannot see Him because I am not divine

We can be underdivine, but we have the gift of divine intellect (Godly knowledge) through which to see the divine.

P.S. I am sorry about my previous post. :oops: I know it writes "speech" instead of "speach". Speach means super peach, that is a very big fruit. :shock: It has recently been gene modified. ;)

[bansy]

There are no problems with anyone here .The question is – do I or do you or whoever consider himself a Brahmin - will ever manage to leave behind the basic thinking about the picture of God and see how can this divine knowledge tally in our lives in a practical way?!! Because putting up a picture of a point of light in front of me won’t do anymore! The journey up and down to and from Parandham has taken us Brahmins to no where after 70 years.

I don't think every BK/PBK thinks of the journey to Paramdham, though I am sure most if not all BKs have done so in the before in meditation or otherwise. However we are reminded of a home. And thus we must be patient and tolerant to our own way of thinking and be guided by Shrimat all the time, which means looking at the Murlis again and again, even when a Murli point that was assumed understood last time round will give rise to a different understanding, possibly a deeper one or an alternate one, as your intellect matures. And I agree, that dharna also goes with practical service as with Gyan and Yoga to complete the 4 pillars and all is complementary to each other. The discus goes on spinning. The Murli point raised in this thread has done this.

[warrior]

Thanks bansy for putting it back to tracks.

The topic is...keep the picture of ShivBaba in your home...

As per my own conclusions based on discussion with you guys and the study of Murlis the point of light as a picture of ShivBaba is not correct because no being can concentrate on that for more than a second or minute; but yes I agree with the BKs that the mind can become more subtle via this method.

Another point that came to my mind is that if this current PBK ShivBaba turns up to be the true one and the correct way to remember Shiv (the diamond) in Virendra Dev Dixit’ body what happens then? Because it is so difficult for us to grasp the idea of one human seen as God - so if he will be revealed as such so my doubts will be turning into a regret stage for failing to foresee this.

The Advance Knowledge as per PBKs says that this ShivBaba will be revealed in a form of defamation only. So in a sense also my doubts will be considered a form of defamation towards this God. So I do hope that this living ShivBaba to be - forgive us all for our inconstant mind. ;)

[shivshankar]

As per my own conclusions base on discussion with you guys and the study of Murlis the point of light as a picture of ShivBaba is not correct because no being can concentrate in that for more than a second or minute; but yes I agree with the BKs that the mind can become more subtle via this method.

Mind will become more subtle if you will not only concentrate on this material picture, but visualise it in your mind. And keep concentrating on it without seing it by material eyes.