BK Laity

[proy]

Nothing is ever enough because there is no Laity?

There is much discussion about whether the BKs are a religion or not. I believe they are not a religion, or at least not meant to be. A religion is inclusive. The BKs are exclusive. You are either born a brahmin soul or you are not. You will either become a deity or you will not, the cycle is pre-determined. Therefore, in theory, there is no place for a laity in the BKs.

A sort of laity has developed. These are the people who are being served by the BKs. Hopefully these people will become happier and more at peace, but they will never become BKs. These people are apparent at every centre, probably. They stay around for years but never get very far towards living a brahmin lifestyle or understanding the philosophy. However, there is no official role for them, and there are many roles they are just not allowed to perform, eg cooking, so they are left with just hanging around the centres.

The other side of the equation is that for those who are BK material nothing they do is ever seen as being enough. I know I will be a BK for the rest of my life even if I never go near another centre. I have had direct experience of Shiva and the transformative power of Yoga.
My life will never be the same again. I know that this is the time in which Shiva is revealed to the world, and that I have a role to play in that revelation.

The narrow interpretation of this is that I should become a centrewasi or at least a seven day a week morning class BK. The wider interpretation is that I can have another role to play. We are all unique players in the drama, and I do not know what my role is except that I am certain that I must be fulfilling it at every individual moment of my life. What else could I be doing but fulfilling my own role? Any other interpretation is impossible within the BK Gyan. So I will have to acknowledge that if others put pressure on me which drives me away from the institution, then that is also their own accurate role. Everything must turn out right in the end, whatever happens.

What do others think? Should a laity be created even though this goes against the principles of Gyan? Should centrewasis ease up on the pressure they put on newly born brahmin souls?

What do I think? Yes, a laity would be a good idea, as it would give many good souls who are not BKs a role to play within the institution. I think the centrewasis are coming from a place of love and enthusiasm, and do not realise that this is often perceived as a form of pressure which drives people away.

I have found that, having heard of my grief, the organisation and the centre have been very understanding and kind, if a little baffled. Often they are people who took the course, went straight into morning classes, and then moved into a centre. That is the natural course of events for them, and it is out of kindness that they seek to push me along the same path. I am now fully reconciled with my centre, and we have a good relationship. The organisation is strong, and can stand a bit of change as it moves more fully into a western environment.

I am happy to report a happy ending. But is there ever an ending?

[howiemac]

What do others think?Should a laity be created even though this goes against the principles of Gyan?

How does it go against the principles of Gyan? The Murlis give instructions for gathering together and illuminating (or is it indoctrinating :wink:) a royal family, a royal court, and a large body of subjects, even for the start of the Golden Age... and the Murlis indicate that even Silver Aged and Copper Aged souls should be served by the BKs now....

There is an assumption, which i see as misguided, that the "priests" of the Brahmin religion (i.e. the pukka BKs) are the royal family and court of the Golden Age, whilst those who take Gyan and then leave will be lucky to make it to the Silver Age... (we are called shudras, meaning, effectively, Iron Aged souls). The reality is that many of us have roles to play that go beyond religion and require us to be unfettered by the restrictions of a rigid and decaying authoritarian structure... I recall being told that Dadi Gulzar was given a vison of the 108 top souls and came back in a state of agitation as she had only recognised half of them....

There is a BK laity in India - a caste of hundreds of thousands who do not wear white clothes nor, in most cases, go to Murli class every day, though presumably they do attend centres regularly. The BK "priests" assume these are the "subjects". Their knowledge of Gyan tends to be sketchy, to put it politely, but they are considered bona fide BKs. And some of these characters I have encountered display an embodiment of spirituality that I found truly humbling (and the same is true for a good number of non-BKs I have met).

I agree that there is a clear need for a more healthy and populous buffer between "pukka" BKs, the rigid rule followers, in their "bubble" of BK life, and the worldy souls outside. However, the contrast between BK life and western life is huge compared to the contrast between BK life and Indian life. , so the Indian model cannot be expected to work here, without a radical change in BK culture and attitudes (and i have seen very little sign of that happening...)

Should centrewasis ease up on the pressure they put on newly born brahmin souls?

yes - if they want them to stay around. From the horses mouth (Avyakt BapDada 6/1/90):

Teachers... when you think too much about why the number of students doesn't increase, why they do not stay, or why they go away, then the students will not stay. If you invoke them through your spirituality and by your being yogyukt (accurate in Yoga), the students will increase automatically. Always keep the mind light. There shouldn't be any type of burden.

So yes - they should stop pressurising people, and allow each individual to find their own level of attendance and commitment according to their own role and circumstances. Trust is required, and acceptance, and a more liberal and less rigid attitude.... the "priests" have to listen to the "laity" and have respect for them. Honesty is required, and openness, and respect for each other. Respect breeds respect. Otherwise we just have yet another traditional copper/Iron Aged power structure designed to keep people ignorant and in servitude.

In reality, i suspect, so long as Dictator Janki is running the show with her rod of iron, with ears shut fast, and demanding blind obediance, the organisation will continue to stumble ever more blindly, ever more fear ridden, downwards into mental hysteria and spiritual oblivion.. The Brahmin religion is heading into its iron age...

Gyan tells us that all religions have to end - including the Brahmin religion. Entropy will have its way. I would not hold out much hope for a resurrection of the BKWSU - their Golden Age is long gone.

[proy]

Laity

Let me try to clarify and summarise what exactly I mean by a laity, and why it is not, strictly speaking, possible for the BKs to have a laity, because the BKs are not a religion. I will use Roman Catholicism as an example as I think we can all agree that Roman Catholicism is definitely a religion.

The priest has his own rules to follow, which are stricter than those followed by the lay catholic. The most obvious of these rules is that the priest is expected to be celibate but the lay Catholics are not.

The priest has his own role and function.
He functions as the conduit between god and the lay people.
He consecrates the host.
He conducts the mass.
He hears confession and gives absolution for sins committed.
He gives the last rites.
Etc., etc.

The lay Catholics have their own role within the religion.
They confess their sins and do penance.
They attend mass.
They take holy communion.
Etc., etc.

At the end of their one life (for that is all they believe they have) they will go to heaven, hell, or purgatory, depending on their behaviour in this life.

It is possible for a "bad" priest, or a priest who is a bad Christian, to end up in hell for eternity. A "good" lay person could possibly spend eternity in heaven after death.

[mr green]

The centrewasis have a very different unspoken view of their students. They are not seen in any way as equal.

The BKs that are running centres believe that the more 'effort' they make on any level of the 4 subjects the higher the status they will achieve. They also take self-esteem from the belief that because they are doing this, they would have had such wisdom in every previous cycle, therefore they are higher souls (in their opinion). People who do not attend regularly to Murli are seen as just not quite having an open intellect therefore only mildly fortunate :lol: :lol:.

So you see there are different 'levels' and therefore a very active hierarchy, inside of which there are many levels of inner circle that you will not be privy to unless you are accepted in such a way.

It is a religion, in my view, simply because BKs do believe in stuff that has no grounding at all in any reality. Therefore blind faith is rife ... the very thing they claim is not there.

[howiemac]

the BKs are not a religion

And pigs can fly ... The Murlis speak very regularly of the "Brahmin religion". The theological reports I have read on the BKs are in no doubt that the BKs are a religion (never mind whether they are a cult or not). There is a rigid authoritarian structure, with a system of dogma and ritual - and the focus is the "revelation of God", coupled with a belief in global "Destruction" ... what is this if not a religion?

there are different 'levels' and therefore a very active hierarchy, inside of which there are many levels of inner circle that you will not be privy to unless you are accepted in such a way.

I agree with this. There are Dadis, their close circle, the "Seniors", the "teachers", etc before you even get to the rest of us who don't attend every day ... so why not have more outer layers on the hierarchy?

Proy - are you saying the BKs cannot have a laity, because they require everyone to be celibate? So how do they have a laity in India? Why can a laity not be celibate (at least on the surface, as with the BKs who are not all by any means celibate in actuality ...) And why can they not accommodate on the edges those with views which are not 100% according to the party line?

The BKs have a clear policy, coming from Dadi Janki, that your are either IN or you are OUT. IN means pukka - you follow the rules 24/7/365. OUT means you are either not a BK or you have trashed eternal fortune, or both. This is very extreme, very black and white. Reality is not black and white, but shades of grey. Reality is not boolean. It is not binary. It is not dual. There are an infinate variety of in-betweens. Why can the BKs not accept this reality? Instead, those who are IN have to wear a mask of "pukka-ness" or they will be hounded out the door. Only those who are OUT have the freedom to be honest and to develop into their true selves.

The BK organisation is full of people who are not very spiritual at all, but they are prepared to wear a mask and pretend to be a model Brahmin - immaculate white clothes, Amrit Vela and Murli class every day (even if they doze right through it), show due obeisance to their 'Seniors' - those who enjoy competitive ladder climbing, and who are strong on the importance of superficial appearance, can do very well within the BKs. Those who are honest and open will be trampled underfoot.

I know another former BK, a former centre niwassi, who claims that those who remain within the organisation long term are generally those who are mentally ill, and who take benefit from being institutionlised. The Brama Kumaris is no place for a healthy mind.

Why has it become like this? I am suggesting that the rigid unbending stance taken from the top down is highly damaging both to the insititution and to its members. And they are shutting out a great many people who could benefit their cause enormously. All that is required is a bit of flexibility and respect for others - some spirituality in action - becoming the embodiment of spiritual powers and virtues, as preached every day in their own Murlis ... :(.

[mr green]

Your last point there howie is so true. They actually lose all the really talented ones as their ability for free thinking just cannot be suppressed. They will go insane without the opportunity to blossom into their own destiny, rather than having the canvas filled in for them by Janki and her cronies.

God's instruments??? Nahhhh ...

[proy]

People who do not attend regularly to Murli are seen as just not quite having an open intellect therefore only mildly fortunate

your are either IN or you are OUT. IN means pukka - you follow the rules 24/7/365. OUT means you are either not a BK or you have trashed eternal fortune, or both. This is very extreme, very black and white

This is why I am saying the BKs cannot have a laity. Could not have put it better myself. As for the religion definition - surely a religion by any definition must have a laity?

Going back to the Catholic example. It is not the case that you are either a priest or you are not a catholic at all. There are, as you say, shades of grey. Celibacy is just a detail in this case, I could have found other examples. In fact I think I did give some other examples in my comparison with Catholicism.

I would like to know more about the laity in India. I know nothing about this. How and why does it work there?

[howiemac]

the BKs cannot have a laity ... surely a religion by any definition must have a laity?

Well - my dictionary says:

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

No mention of a laity ... However, regardless of whether it would make them a religion or not, i do think that the BKs would be better off with one ...

Going back to the catholic example. It is not the case that you are either a priest or you are not a catholic at all. There are, as you say, shades of grey.

Indeed there would seem to be a laity, and a flock beyond that ... who are all Catholic: here is a quote from a practicing catholic, who chooses to remain anonymous.

Catholic Laity are those that are devoted more so than the others through a stronger conviction/ believe/devotion to God. Often couples will be in the laity and the husband may become a deacon through study, if the wife dies he can become a priest and understands he will not remarry. Laity will do the reading during mass, assist during the mass, teach converting adults (prior to baptism), teach classes for parents that will have their child baptized, teach the catechism classes, teach the confirmation classes, help in the pre-marriage classes (now mandatory as well) and help conduct retreats. So, they are involved in the highest of teaching within the church and the priest will come by once or twice to see how things are getting on and be at the ceremonies once all the teaching has taken place. In the old days there were many nuns and priests and monks (they usually don't teach ... they have their role ... they are some what distant from the general congregation and the most visible ones do service as their calling).

The laity are well versed in this area and are strong Catholics. They now are allowed to go to the sick and take communion to them (the host having been blessed during mass by the priest in the regular fashion). They are also allowed to do this during mass, giving out the host during mass and the wine (just a sip). The children that have not done their communion line up during this time in the priests line (arms crossed to indicate they can not take communion) and receive a blessing.

The laity will go to the hospitals to pray with the sick if the priest is not available. They will go to the prisons and see the prisoners to offer prayer/contemplation and tell them they are not alone. The laity will go out and do service in areas needed, help raise money for causes, do the annual festivals and run the youth activities. Most recently they have hosted traditional Jewish Holiday meals (we read about them all the time in the bible) that are done by Rabbi's as part of recognizing the interfaith aspect of things and to bring healing as some Christian nuts are still carrying on about "The Jews killed Jesus" not realizing Jesus was a Jew!

The laity will often do mission under a particular order ... the most popular one that people are now aware of is Opus D., but there are many others. Often one will join one and later enter that order if one is widowed. In essence I guess I am trying to say these are the nuts and bolts of the church that hold it together versus the general believers of the faith that may go to church every so often (I do recognize that 1/4 do tithe and give donations).

The laity will often do a mission just as laity ... but take additional training. You go to third world countries or poor areas and offer your expertise. Your teach in schools, work in clinics, feed the poor and offer fellowship. They will dress very conservatively and will pray throughout the day (what you call remembrance of GOD). The missionaries will also go into areas of known conflict and serve those in need.

They will accept that they are in harms way and every so often you will read about one being killed, most of the press will be of a nun or priest is killed. They will also serve in churches where there is conflict to help the priests or nuns. In El Salvador when the nuns were beaten, raped and killed I do believe there was a missionary in the car with them. They will also help in documenting things (goings on) in mail sent home not as agents, just as an observer.

So, the laity believe that if someone is hurting it is your duty to assist, if someone is suffering it is your duty to help, if someone is hungry it is your duty to feed them, if they are cold it is your duty to cloth them and while you do all of this you must not proselytize to them. If they so ask at a later time when they are not in such a state then you are to tell them why these things are done. You must always have respect for them, offer love and understanding to them always ... as this is the true example of knowing GOD.

So, I hope I got most of it in: more than likely I forgot some aspect role they do. The average Catholic, which is most of them, will go to mass once a week, try and pray two maybe three times a day (if that) and will say grace (if that) and will go on about their daily lives.

So, the final thing is that any one in this lot can get to heaven regardless of their status ... so when you do some thing extra it is done with no prize hat at the end of doing it. Simply having the knowledge that you did and the other one having been touched ... one soul touching another is the wonderment of why we are here.

So the laity does the donkey work - without suffering from the extreme dogmatic restrictions of the priesthood. Would the BKs not benefit from such a supporting structure? And would their own extremism not be likely to be tempered by association with a less fanatic outer layer of supporters?

[fluffy bunny]

I wanted to resurrect the topic of a BK laity and ask two questions ;

• firstly, should we have a category for "lay BKs" on this forum?

• secondly, whether a BK laity is actually being created in the West of two different sorts?

Are there individuals that are not following the Maryadas or going to class but do not think of themselves as ex-BK, who actually still consider themselves to be BK? But just "lay BK".

I would suggest the first kind of lay BK is clear cut. Hindis that follow the BKs and their beliefs but on an ad hoc or piecemeal basis, as if it was another temple to visit on a Sunday and donate money to whilst they continued a family life. The second is in the West, and instead of the image of pious Roman Catholics, here the BK neo-Laity appear to evolving amongst a kind of New Age, Executive Coaching, Leadership Awareness professional class?

I have been looking at who and where the BK scents are arising and rather than religious environments, it seems to be amongst the media, workshops and consultancies, rather than the poor and uneducated masses.

With the expansion of the Inner Space "chain stores", is this not the development of a "diffusion range", as it would be called in fashion. A sort of 'BK Lite' for busy and ambitious people. There seems to be a new class of practitioner that associates with Raja Yoga - and is already engaging on Yoga with Shiva - but really does not anything about the core teachings. All they have read or heard is the New Agey, love and light or positive thinking whitewash.

They might even consider themselves to be BK followers or supporters and enjoy the association of pukka BKs but have no intention of putting themselves through BK Boot Camp and following full principles. They might meditate, but that is it, the rest of their life is there own. An easy life.

Of course, from the BK point of view, pukka BKs would be thinking that these are awfully low caste deities or may be even their Copper Aged devotees come back again ... but is the BKWSU actually mutating into a divided priest / nun caste and householders and could it be a sign of health?

I have been told that it is hard for me not to sound cynical but I mean this genuinely. I have been out of BK for some time and wonder how or if it is changing and if this change is conscious and deliberate.

[abrahma kumar]

When sanity seems long departed what to do ... ?

From my reading of the document "Is This Justice", combined with some observations arising from the Domain Name Dispute that this site has been called upon to defend, I found myself not only wondering who the BKs are but also whether the letters B & K will also be claimed by the BKs at some future date as their very own word marks? Only time will tell i suppose.

But in the meantime, what if we learn that the combined letters BK are in fact a sort "The Family" heirloom that we non-members and non-family have been allowed to 'use - and to 'imagine ourselves as' - only under the 'grace & favour' of The Family?

Now, it sure looks as if someone wants to call time on that free ride we were taking! Were we deluded in thinking that the BK useage 'allowance' would exist for the entire Confluence Age? Ah well. The founder of Om Mandli has been named as Bhai Lekhraj Khubchand Kirpalani. In BK-circles the followers are addressed like: Abrahma Bhai (male) or Abrahmani Bhen (female). And from this, I notice that BK could in fact stand for Bhai (or Bhen) Kirpalani; and NOT Brahma Kumar or Brahma Kumari!

• When did "Brahma" as G-O-D get dropped in favour of Shiva as G-O-D?

What if for all of these years we have quite innocently "given-up" our identities in order to prop up the egos of religious meglomaniacs and/or being(s) from a realm beyond who want themselves - and family name and initials - to go down in history as the TRUE missionaries of G-O-D? Have we all become Bhai & Bhen Kirplani's by proxy?

I did ask in my early days on the Forum if anyone knows exactly what goes on when we are having Yoga and are 'fixing our minds' on these personalities? What benefits do they themselves derive?

Oh, and i note too that "Bhai & Bhen" sort of rhymes with Bill & Ben who were together known as The Flower Pot Men? And yes, I can imagine that thiis will probably go down in Brahmakumaris.info folklore as the pottiest post ever :lol: .

regards
abek

[pilatus]

Thanks for taking me back to the good old days of Bill and Ben abek - and I loved the "pottiest" pun ...

To take proy's model one step further, perhaps we can compare the BK structure with e.g. the Church of England General Synod = BapDada meeting:

• 1. House of laity = common-or-garden, not necessarily pukka or celibate BKs
  2. House of clergy = heads of centre and pukka senior sisters
  3. House of bishops = Dadi's and Didi's
  4. Archbishops of York and Canterbury = DG+Bap-Dada

8)

Love, joy, JSK and namaste,

[bkti-pit]

There are many so called pukka BKs, even some running centers and so on, who do not seem very happy and seem to struggle a lot in their BK life. Some may seem to be running a big kingdom but are quite bossy, do give sorrow to many and end up being pretty lonely.

On the other hand, I know many who may have some sense of belonging to the BK family but may not consider themselves as BKs, who have love for God, love for the knowledge and love for Raja Yoga meditation but do not show up regularly for morning class, may not systematically meditate at 4 AM and may or may not follow strictly all the disciplines but who are genuinely generally happy and light and are contented with their spiritual life. They often have a lot of friends and BKs like to be around them because they are of such a good company.

Who is going to end up in Golden Age: the lonely king or the happy subject?

[fluffy bunny]

Who is going to end up in Golden Age: the lonely king or the happy subject?

I often ask the same question about 'intelligence'.

Although the system puts a great emphasis on "purity", which it mainly interprets 2 dimensionally as sexual continence, it seems to put little to no emphasis on intellectual development despite claiming BK Raja Yoga is also Buddhi Yogi. Indeed, in the old days at least the encouragement was to give up mental development, e.g. further education and career-wise.

On the basis that the destinatory deity state is foolishness, BKs are encouraged to be foolish, intoxicated parrots in place of thinkers. Rote and repetition, a conformity to the given responses, the fear of having a personal opinion dulls the intellect of the followers. quote unquote variations of Global Chief Janki Kripalani's oft repeated line "we have nothing more to think about".

• Is not a whole self also an intelligent self?

To my thinking, the only place were intelligence is applied is in the internal business aspects, politicking (which involved considerable intelligence gathering), and external disguise in which the BKs can be very canny. But I don't equate those with being pure.

So the laity does the donkey work - without suffering from the extreme dogmatic restrictions of the priesthood. Would the BKs not benefit from such a supporting structure?

Where would the leadership's ring of non-BK associations sit within such a structure?

There are already quite a large number of "Sunday Brahmin" at main centers, and in India, who treat it like a religion for whom either the "teachings do not seem to penetrate" or they have a healthy boundaries/self-preservation/detachment mechanism. I am sure there are financial benefits to their encouragement. What is it/was it that caught us and drag us into the machinery of become "priest caste" BKs. Perhaps this is what we should be asking.

In my opinion, the system does all it can to breakdown individual's boundaries between the self and it/its leaders.