The Cycle of Time.

[andrey]

How do you make a relative measurement in a matterless infinity or is Paramdham not infinite?

It is that Paramdham comes in this world and it is a matter of such a stage. That this soul of Shiva, whilst he is in a body, has such a high stage of the intellect that no one else in this world has. The more our intellect is close to this material world, objects of matter, the body etc ... the less is it soul-conscious. The soul of Shiva is always soul-conscious and He does not think of anything - like food - clothes, body, he does not eat, drink he does not experience anything.

So, if you take a scale between this consciousness and the most body-conscious soul one can measure high and low. Yes, high and low are matter of here on earth in the body. Effort does not change or create our own or anyone's role. Effort is to get to know the role, then maybe one is happy with it, because no one plays your role, everyone has his good days.

Although we see so much apparent unfairness

For whom ... Muslims say it is fair.

[diogenes]

On the issue of time and the Cycle being 5000 years. If you've ever had the experience of the Subtle Region, or the incorporeal realm, in meditation you'll understand that time is relative. It appears non existent in those states. And being it is that state of consciousness which brings about the Golden Age earth, matter then is the product of the purest, subtle energy to exist. Relative to how we experience time today (Iron Age), we don't remember how long a subtle (light) matter year is. And there are 2500 of them. From my own experiences in meditation, I suspect the experience will be timeless for the soul - up until the big crunch which begins Copper Age.

On the Law of Karma - just think cause and effect, Newton's 3rd Law of Motion = for every action there is an equal, opposite reaction.

If you're frustrated by Gyan points of knowledge because you haven't understood, that's one thing. If you retire into cynical denial/disproving of them while you haven't understood, that's another.

I liken it to gravity. You know it's there. Dissect it and howl about it all you like, but the bottom line is, only a fool actively ignores it.

It takes a bit of courage to sit in front of God/Baba with an honest, open heart. Warts and all. But that's the first step where ever you are coming from. And like anythng, you get stronger by practicing it. You cannot blame the BK family/system for your not doing that. And if that's where your problem really lies, no amount of resentment, denial or bitter discussion on here is going to produce you a silk purse from a sow's ear.

[joel]

On the issue of time and The Cycle being 5000 years. If you've ever had the experience of the Subtle Region, or the incorporeal realm, in meditation you'll understand that time is relative. It appears non existent in those states. And being it is that state of consciousness which brings about the Golden Age earth, matter then is the product of the purest, subtle energy to exist. Relative to how we experience time today (Iron Age), we don't remember how long a subtle (light) matter year is. And there are 2500 of them. From my own experiences in meditation, I suspect the experience will be timeless for the soul - up until the big crunch which begins Copper Age.

On the Law of Karma - just think cause and effect, Newton's 3rd Law of Motion = for every action there is an equal, opposite reaction. If you're frustrated by Gyan points of knowledge because you haven't understood, that's one thing. If you retire into cynical denial/disproving of them while you haven't understood, that's another. I liken it to gravity. You know it's there. Dissect it and howl about it all you like, but the bottom line is, only a fool actively ignores it.

It takes a bit of courage to sit in front of God/Baba with an honest, open heart. Warts and all. But that's the first step where ever you are coming from. And like anythng, you get stronger by practicing it. You cannot blame the BK family/system for your not doing that. And if that's where your problem really lies, no amount of resentment, denial or bitter discussion on here is going to produce you a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Suppose we set aside the question of fact and consider the impact on the believers. If believing in the BK knowledge and practicing it, opening your heart to God. If these really and dramatically changed people in a way that was qualitatively and quantitatively superior to other paths, we might expect this "knowledge" to become as popular and respected as, for example, penicillin.

"Even tho it is simple and works, only a few are fated to understand it. Gyan will not sit in the intellect of the impure."

All well and good, but think for a minute that your vision of others as impure puts you below the people you silently judge.

One problem with believing in the cycle is that it becomes necessary to view all scientists (many brilliant, inquisitive people) as deluded and self-deluding. This judgment harms the seeker, who by judging others loses the ability to accept all aspects of his or her own self. Many lose this without missing it at all! Judging others offers an easy escape from relating. Judgment insulates oneself against vulnerability. My tribe is good and right, others are wrong and degraded.

It is a rare individual who can accept the idea of others as full of sin, vice and impurity, while still being open. Judgment is a far worse poison, to my mind, than for example, eating meat, or sexual arousal and release: the latter are not, in my experience, intrinsically harmful.

[john]

One problem with believing in The Cycle is that it becomes necessary to view all scientists (many brilliant, inquisitive people) as deluded and self-deluding. This judgment harms the seeker, who by judging others loses the ability to accept all aspects of his or her own self. Many lose this without missing it at all! Judging others offers an easy escape from relating. Judgment insulates oneself against vulnerability. My tribe is good and right, others are wrong and degraded.

People used to believe the world was flat. We cannot always hold onto old ideas, just because of not wanting to disrespect scientists. How do we know that science won't lead to the 5,000 cycle idea, eventually anyway. Science is not yet concluded.

I find it ridiculous to accept contradicting theories and just say ... I don't have the answer. Well, who are we trying to fool here except ourselves.

Does anyone have the answer. I certainly haven't heard it. Whether I have an answer or not doesn't change whether the ideas of Karma and Drama as explained in the Murlis are right or wrong.

To me it is a more complete theory than any I have heard before or since, the emphasis here is 'to me'. Maybe for those that have a strong scientific mind/way of thinking the ideas of Gyan will be difficult to accept. Again for me I don't hold scientists in such a high regard because science is not yet concluded and may still be in it's infancy.

[fluffy bunny]

How do we know that science won't lead to the 5,000 cycle idea, eventually anyway?

Because it is unprovable.

Proof is entirely exclude from its conception. As soon as it is proved, the clock will have ticked, 6 Billion will be dead and no one in the Golden Age will be interested or able to understand because they are only 1 second old.

And its a very clever, but transparent, trick because only those that havelived the full 5,000 years (the 900,000) will undertand or believe. All the rest of humanity will doubt it because they have no possible way of having experienced it.

Its a mental plug to stop the mind chattering so that the Supreme Spook can channel whatever it is he or they are channelling, through the minds of the BKs. The 5,000 years is a bit like the trick the stage hypnotists use to see if you are hypno-suggestible, e.g. if you lock your fingers together and cannot undo them, the hypnotist knows that you are suggestible. In the BKWSU, Shiva says 5,000 years and if you swallow that, then you will swallow anything. It is a only a mental block and has no other value than that.

"Who am I ... where did I come from ... what am I doing here ...", these are all the cores of deep mental chatter. They need to shut up with an answer. Any old answer. It does not really matter what. So the he, or they, give answers that are culturally referenced to plug those unanswerable questions so that our minds can be used for conduits to channel what ever it is they are channelling and for what ever reason it is they are chanelling it. They are only really interested in individuals that have a little extra bandwidth, e.g. individuals that have got basic life out of the way and under their belt and are not overly concerned with mere existence and they are very interested in individuals that high output capacity, e.g. mics. So they develop philosophical patterns that fit our requirements to shut our inquiring faculties down to allow our broadcasting faculties, both receiving and sending, to operate at a peak level.

We get sucked into BK Raja Yoga in particular because we like purity, simplicity, symmetry and order hence the simple, symmetrical, repetitive concept. We are also particularly attracted to the idea of being worship worthy deities and living in a comfortable heaven and willing to gamble our lot to get it. We are open individuals and this is consciously encouraged to the point of naivety. "Don't believe ... just temporarily suspend your disbelief ... see how it feels", is the siren's call.

Once we open and let it or them in then the honeymoon drug kicks in ... and we are hooked. For a while.

A long answer John but a complete one. My short answer is it is immaterial. To debate the issue of 5,000 years is missing the point. It is not about the number of years, it is about what the method yukti is being used for in the first place.

Besides which, time is relative. What is it being measured against? There is no big Swiss clock outside of the material universe ticking its 5,000 x ticks. File under "flat earth" and "moon made of cheese" ... and look in the other direction for the real answer. He, or they are even happy for the debate or contention that such an unprovable or ridiculous concept provoks because it keep mental traffic passing back them them. It is their identifier. If mental traffic comes back saying "5,000 years" ... that goes to Shiva, if mental traffic comes back saying "Moses and the flood" ... then that goes back to Jahweh. He, or they, seem to feed off or travel through our thoughts as though they were the copper cables of transmission.

[joel]

People used to believe the world was flat. We cannot always hold onto old ideas, just because of not wanting to disrespect scientists. How do we know that science won't lead to the 5,000 cycle idea, eventually anyway. Science is not yet concluded.

So in general, you can account for reasons to discount people who've spent much more time, and in an environment where views can compete. In general, the theories explain the evidence better, and can be tested and verified, are accepted. We don't have arguments about the basic principles of metallurgy or blast furnaces.

Would you deny the circulation of the blood? Would you deny the implications of pock-marked satellites of Saturn?

Discounting means deciding without a willingness to examine conflicting evidence in detail.

Science might lead to the 5,000 year cycle, but it seems unlikely to me that the work of astronomical physicists in determining the age of the planets and celestial objects will be overturned. Evolution, too, has a huge amount of evidence amassed, much much more than in Darwin's time. Radioactive dating provides similar results for fossils belonging to similar strata. Ice cores and tree rings also tell much of earth's history.

I joined the debate with some scientifically educated people, I discussed, and was open, and concluded they were right about certain things. But don't worry. Most people on the planet believe arbitrary things, and it doesn't make all that much difference. You (nor anyone) are unlikely to change their driving habits. It is these habits that are going to bring the future. The polar bears and their friends care much more about people's driving habits than spiritual practices. In terms of driving habits, BKs are the same as any others, in aggregate, from the point of view of the polar bears who are losing their summer ice hunting grounds.

I think I am writing mostly to entertain myself. Probably you can make yourself win the argument to your satisfaction. A great quality of some scientists and few among the religious faithful is willingness to change their views if substantially challenged. I personally have drawn strength from accepting challenges to my beliefs about the world.

[mr green]

It was science that disproved the idea that the world was flat.

[john]

It was science that disproved the idea that the world was flat

Yes correct, as science evolves old ideas are overturned.

So in general, you can account for reasons to discount people who've spent much more time, and in an environment where views can compete. In general, the theories explain the evidence better, and can be tested and verified, are accepted.

No, I can only account to myself and express my belief. Two things that are important to that are I believe Shiva is God and has knowledge beyond time and science. As to how much knowledge in actual scientific terms, I don't know but I don't see the importance of Shiva having to have knowledge of every detail and knowing how the exact mechanics of the material universe work.

The other is that I think science is developing and will continue to develop with new ideas, bringing new understanding to the material universe. One of the ideas I find interesting is the one that animals have hidden genes which could allow them to change species quicker than was proposed before, evolution of hundreds of years rather than thousands.

A great quality of some scientists and few among the religious faithful is willingness to change their views if substantially challenged. I personally have drawn strength from accepting challenges to my beliefs about the world.

I agree, I think it should be challenged, but I do not see anyway for BKs to give any more of an answer based on the available Murlis. Maybe the hidden Murlis might have more information.

[diogenes]

No, I can only account to myself and express my belief. Two things that are important to that are I believe Shiva is God and has knowledge beyond time and science.

Hi John. You've raised the key point to Gyan and discussion on any point of Gyan. Knowing who it is that is teaching .

Despite myself, in meditation I had the experience (immensely loving, merciful, untrickable) of who was teaching this knowledge and I knew it. Before I was able to meditate, I remember feeling resentment and being indignant that other souls seemed to know who was teaching and I knew I did not. For a while that got in my way. I tried to copy them etc. Then I really looked at the basics of what was being taught, particularly the mediation, and met who was waiting for me. Best meeting I ever had. I couldn't stop smiling for weeks. I was in on the 'secret' that wasn't a secret. It just took me a little effort to get out of my own way.

If any of the ex-BK's on here haven't met Baba in meditation - don't give up. It's the best meeting you will ever have. You can still rail against Gyan and dispute the quality of BK facilitation - I do. I even do it with great bravado and incredible self righteousness. But beneath my personal drama and show Baba is ticking away with me, reassuringly. And once you know something (who is teaching in this case) you cannot unknow it.

As to how much knowledge in actual scientific terms, I don't know but I don't see the importance of Shiva having to have knowledge of every detail and knowing how the exact mechanics of the material universe work.

Yes. And as a PBK has posted in another thread, Baba is here to help us change our Iron Age mind to the unlimited Golden Age mind. It's his role to give us the knowledge and technique to achieve that. Along with being loving, sweetly funny and a damn fine friend, that's what he does. As for answering questions of scientific nature etc., he tells us to think on/churn the knowlege and we'll understand. That's how I understand him to be the Ocean of Knowledge. When you have a friend who actually knows everything, I've found a lot of the urgency and particularly 'demanding' for answers in this area diminishes. I've also found it doesn't happen for souls who don't yet know who is teaching.

The other is that I think science is developing and will continue to develop with new ideas, bringing new understanding to the material universe. One of the ideas I find interesting is the one that animals have hidden genes which could allow them to change species quicker than was proposed before, evolution of hundreds of years rather than thousands.

Yes. Rapid change, possibly during catastrophic periods e.g. Dinosaurs (bird species?) - everything points to radioactive mutation in this case ( tiny brains - which radioactivity doesn't affect - monstrous, hairless bodies (which are signs of radioactive mutation) and that their bones date at millions of years (radio-active decay unwittingly being measured from the affect of a nuclear catastrophe/ catastrophic change in the radiation striking the earth).

Science acknowledges gravity must have been different then for them to exist as well.

[bansy]

Hi diogenes
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing your insights and experiences.


To all :
Back to this thread, here's another latest snippet from today's BK morning class Sakar Murli 01 Jan 2007 :

"This world cycle is also called the drama. A drama film repeats, but a play doesn't. In a play, if an actor is missing, they can replace him with someone else. If someone is ill, he can be replaced. There are live plays. This is not called a play, it is called a drama (film). Nothing in it can be changed. People ask for liberation. However, no change can take place in the drama. No one knows that this is a drama and that no one can leave it. "

So there you have it. Everything is fixed. Energies, laws, karma, earthquakes and tsunamis, physical and metaphysical theories, religions and cults, dinosaurs, UFOs, MacDonalds and Starbucks. The same film every 5000 years. Your role is fixed, your numberwise is fixed, God uses a lot of media to save this movie, and when the credits come up at the end and you're all pinned at the edge of your seats to see when (or if) your name comes up. :lol:

[diogenes]

Hi Bansy, and thanks for the welcome! Sorry if I digressed from the main thread in responding to John's post.

Back to this thread, here's another latest snippet from today's BK morning class Sakar Murli 01 Jan 2007 :

"This world cycle ... it is called a drama (film). Nothing in it can be changed.

All the choices we make, informed or ignorant, and their consequent outcomes, will be the same each cycle. Cause and effect. We will make the same choices and achieve the same results for those choices eternally. This is how 'nothing can be changed'. Souls may respond with, 'Why bother trying? Everything is fixed.'

When you delve into understanding the cycle further it becomes clear there are more appropriate and productive questions. 'What have I fixed for myself in all this? Have I satisfied my potential? Am I happy? How am I using what I know ?

" People ask for liberation ... No one knows that this is a drama and that no one can leave it. "

Our existence (we, the soul with our role, replete with our character traits and our Karma) is eternal, and eternally in the drama cycle.

Remember, Baba, while being unlimited in nature and knowledge, doesn't create the laws of the universe, reincarnation, or the Law of Karma we're subject to. He just gives us the information, and helps us use it. So many souls want to shoot the messenger.

So there you have it. Everything is fixed. Energies, laws, karma, earthquakes and tsunamis, physical and metaphysical theories, religions and cults, dinosaurs, UFOs, MacDonalds and Starbucks. The same film every 5000 years. Your role is fixed, your numberwise is fixed, God uses a lot of media to save this movie, and when the credits come up at the end and you're all pinned at the edge of your seats to see when (or if) your name comes up. :lol:

That's one way of looking at it. :wink:

[bansy]

Hi diogenes, don't worry about the digression ... most of us do. I prefer threads that have some flexibility, as one topic often opens up into many others.

When you delve into understanding The Cycle further it becomes clear there are more appropriate and productive questions.

I agree. I think the key (there seems to be many of these !) to all of Gyan is the understanding of Drama. In our own way, we can get to know about the soul and Supreme Soul and even understand other souls in the family, but we all are bound to this Drama. Why even Brahma and Vishnu and Hanuman and Jesus etc are bound. How much or how little we believe is embedded within the drama itself. The Drama is the unknown element. God is pretty tightlipped, munching away at the box of popcorn but He won't tell us what is or will happen as it would spoil the fun, though He has told us how the movie ends and even told us a bit about how it began. However, though we have also seen the movie as many times as He has, we don't recall a thing.

I think the flaw, or rather misunderstanding, is that the Drama is 5000 years. An unlimited eternal drama, a cycle, is limited in fixed 5K blocks (as another thread puts it). Its a conundrum. It seems the 5000 years is a tangible figure meaning "infinity" but for simple human minds and intellects, 5000 is easier to consume as well as having a sense of end-of-time-is-coming, so as to convince souls to put in the final efforts in these final scenes.

[diogenes]

I agree. I think the key (there seems to be many of these !) to all of Gyan is the understanding of Drama.

Sorry, I cannot agree with you there, bansy. You're leaving out the point vital to understanding any of this knowledge. Put God first in the equation and we're on common ground. Without that in meditation you don't have a key for understanding. The knowledge is useless.

In our own way, we can get to know about the soul and Supreme Soul and even understand other souls in the family ...

Muslims can interpret the Koran in their own way. Christians, the Bible. Hindus, the Gita. Whether we're spouting wisdom or touting God's knowledge, doing things 'in our own way' has led us to where we are now in Iron Age. And it's an inconvenient truth for most.

... but we all are bound to this Drama. Why even Brahma and Vishnu and Hanuman and Jesus etc are bound. How much or how little we believe is embedded within the drama itself. The Drama is the unknown element. God is pretty tightlipped, munching away at the box of popcorn but He won't tell us what is or will happen as it would spoil the fun, though He has told us how the movie ends and even told us a bit about how it began.

I found when I stopped trying to seduce Baba with my cleverness and have him serve my expectations, we began to get along really well :) .

However, though we have also seen the movie as many times as He has, we don't recall a thing.

I've found in meditation the vantage point changes for the better. Again, getting expectations out of the way allows a lot clearer view. And, hey, I like that in the Gold and Silver Ages we're blissfully ignorant, compared to our blind ignorance in Iron Age. Oops, excuse me a tick, my third eye is receiving a message. ;)

I think the flaw, or rather misunderstanding, is that the Drama is 5000 years. An unlimited eternal drama, a cycle, is limited in fixed 5K blocks (as another thread puts it). Its a conundrum. It seems the 5000 years is a tangible figure meaning "infinity" but for simple human minds and intellects, 5000 is easier to consume as well as having a sense of end-of-time-is-coming, so as to convince souls to put in the final efforts in these final scenes.

I am a glass-is-half-full kind of soul myself. I no longer equivocate when dealing with Gyan because, as I've said, I know who's teaching.

[tinydot]

Put God first in the equation and we're on common ground. Without that in meditation you don't have a key for understanding. The knowledge is useless.

Seconded. I am grateful with Shiva/BKWSU by their teachings of God and Soul.

[bansy]

Sorry, I cannot agree with you there, bansy. You're leaving out the point vital to understanding any of this knowledge. Put God first in the equation and we're on common ground. Without that in meditation you don't have a key for understanding. The knowledge is useless.

Actually I think we are in agreement and in common ground, though I may have misinterpreted what I meant to put across, that's the limitation of writing on a forum :oops: . Without God first, then there is little else. That is always the foremost. What I meant to write is that after you've recognised and found God (in whatever form or way that one feels best, where meditation is one way of achieving so), which then includes recognising yourself as a soul and hence others as souls, then what else is there left to learn or necessary to learn. If at all. The rest as it seems, well, it just comes in time.

I found when I stopped trying to seduce Baba with my cleverness and have him serve my expectations, we began to get along really well

Surrendering (my intellect) to God works well for me too.