History of the concept of the self and Shiva as star

[fluffy bunny]

HI.

Can anyone help me date the evolution of the concept of Shiva as being a star evolved within the BKWSU, as mentioned in BK literature or here recently?

If we remember that there was no mention of Shiva until after they left Karachi in the '50s ... and conception changed from being "thumb shaped" to them star-like ... when did it happen?

It also makes me wonder how and when did the conception of the self as a star arise.

A while ago, I asked myself if the idea of the self as "thumb-shaped" had been misunderstood by Western BKs, i.e. believing "thumb-shaped to mean like a Shivlingum or literally a whole thumb, when instead it mean 'thumb-print shaped', as illiterate people would have put their mark on a document or police records.

The soul as 'thumb-print shaped' oval makes more sense, e.g. a radiant aura.

Thanks.

[sita]

I believe the thumb shape idea is common in Bhakti, and it i there in the scriptures, i think it represents the saligram. Let someone correct me.

As far as i know the idea about the soul being a star has been delivered by Om Radhe. How far at that time the idea of Shiva had appeared i have no idea.

[arjun]

BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -228

“शिव अर्थात् बिन्दी। आत्मा ही बिन्दी है ना। स्टार क्या है? कितना छोटा है? ऐसे थोड़े ही आत्माएं ऊपर जायेंगी तो बड़ी हो जायेंगी। यह तो भ्रकुटी के बीच में निशानी दिखाते हैं। कहते भी हैं भ्रकुटी के बीच में चमकता है अजब सितारा। तो जरूर भ्रकुटी में इतनी छोटी आत्मा ही रह सकेगी। तो जैसे आत्मा है वैसे परमात्मा। परन्तु वन्डर है जो हर एक इतनी छोटी आत्मा में सभी जन्मों का पार्ट भरा हुआ है। जो कभी घिसता नहीं है, फार एवर चलता रहेगा। कितनी गुह्य बातें हैं। आगे कब यह बातें सुनाई थी क्या? आगे तो कहते थे लिंग रूप है, अंगुष्ठाकार है। पहले ही अगर यह बातें सुनाते तो तुम समझ नहीं सकते। अभी बुद्धि में बैठता है। स्टार तो सब कहेंगे। साक्षात्कार भी स्टार का होता है।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २२.०२.०८, पृ.२ एवं ३)

“Shiv means point. A soul itself is a point, isn’t it? What is a star? How small is it? It is not as if the souls would go up and grow in size. It is a sign (of the soul) that is shown in the middle of the forehead. It is even said that a wonderful star shines in the middle of the forehead. So, certainly only such a small soul would be able to live in the middle of the forehead. So, as the soul, so is the Supreme Soul. But it is a wonder that the part of all the births is recorded in every such small soul which never gets erased. It will go on for ever. These are so secret matters. Were such matters narrated earlier? Earlier it used to be said that He (i.e. God) is in the form of a ling; He is in the shape of a thumb. Had these matters been narrated earlier you would not have been able to understand. Now it fits into your intellect. Everyone would say that it is a star. Even the visions that people have are of stars only.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 22.02.08, pg.2&3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -528
“शिवबाबा को ही फिर सोमनाथ, ज्ञान का सागर कहते हैं। सोमनाथ नाम पुजारियों ने रखा है। असुल नाम है शिवबाबा। शिव किसको कहा जाता है? आत्माओं के बाप को। आत्मा तो बिन्दी है। गाया जाता है परमपिता परम आत्मा, सुप्रीम सोल। सोल अर्थात् आत्मा। आत्मा बड़ी-छोटी नहीं होती है। बाप कहते हैं मैं भी इसमें प्रवेश करता हूँ तो कोई को मालूम नहीं पड़ता है। परन्तु समझते हैं भ्रकुटी के बीच में वह छोटा सा स्टार है ना। तो कहेंगे मस्तकमणी, मस्तक में मणी है। मणी आत्मा को कहा जाता है। कहते हैं सर्प के मस्तक में भी मणी होती है। यह सब बातें वास्तव में इस समय की हैं। आत्मा रूपी मणी प्रकाश करती है।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक ०८.०८.०८, पृ. १)

“ShivBaba Himself is then called Somnath, an ocean of knowledge. The worshippers have coined the name Somnath. The actual name is ShivBaba. Who is called Shiv? The Father of souls. The soul is a point. It is sung – The Supreme Father Supreme Soul. Soul means spirit. A soul is not big and small. The Father says – even when I enter in this one nobody comes to know of it. But they feel that He is a small star in the middle of the forehead, isn’t He? So, it will be called a gem on the forehead (mastakmani), a gem on the forehead. The soul is called a gem. They say that there is a gem on the forehead of the snake as well. All these issues actually pertain to the present time. The gem-like soul radiates light.”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.08.08, pg 1 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -647
“बच्चों को समझाया है यह परमपिता परमात्मा का नाम, रूप, देश, काल कोई भी नहीं जानते, जब तक कि बाप आकर अपना परिचय दे और परिचय भी बहुत गम्भीर है। उनका रूप तो पहले लिंग ही कहना पड़ता। रुद्र यज्ञ रचते हैं तो मिट्टी के लिंग बनाते हैं, जिनकी पूजा होती आई है। बाप ने पहले यह नहीं बताया कि बिन्दी रूप है। बिन्दी रूप कहते तो तुम समझ नहीं सकते। जो बात जब समझानी है तब समझाते हैं। ऐसे नहीं कहेंगे पहले क्यों नहीं बताया जो आज समझाते हो। नहीं, ड्रामा में नूँध ही ऐसी है।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक ०६.१०.०८, पृ. २)

“Children have been explained that nobody knows the name, form, country, time of the Supreme Father Supreme Soul until the Father comes and gives His introduction. And the introduction is also very serious. Initially, His form has to be described as a ling. When Rudra Yagya is organized, lings made up of clay are worshipped. The Father did not tell in the beginning that He is in form of a point. Had He said that He is like a point you would not have understood. Whatever is to be explained at whichever time is explained at that appropriate time. You cannot say that why did you not explain earlier whatever you are explaining now. No, it is fixed like this in the drama.”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 06.10.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)


BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -1024
“अभी तुम यथार्थ रीति योग सीख रहे हो। बच्चों को समझाया है – सबको भाई-भाई देखो। आत्मा का तख्त तो यह है। इसलिए भागीरथ बाबा का सिंहासन भी मशहूर है। जब किसी को समझाते हो तो भी ऐसे समझो – हम भाईयों को समझाते हैं। यही दृष्टि रहे – इसमें ही भारी मेहनत है। मेहनत से ही ऊंच पद मिलता है। बाप भी ऐसे देखेंगे, बाप की नज़र भी भ्रकुटि के बीच में जायेगी। आत्मा तो छोटी बिन्दी है। सुनती भी वही है। तुम बाप को भी भृकुटि के बीच में देखेंगे। बाबा भी यहाँ है तो भाई (ब्रह्मा की आत्मा) भी यहाँ है। ऐसे बुद्धि में रहने से तुम भी जैसे ज्ञान सागर के बच्चे ज्ञान सागर बन जाते हो। तुम्हारे लिए तो बहुत सहज है। गृहस्थ व्यवहार में रहने वालों के लिए यह अवस्था जरा मुश्किल है। सुनकर घर चले जाते हैं। वहाँ का वातावरण ही और है। यहाँ सहज है।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २१.०३.०९, पृ. ३)

“Now you are learning Yoga in the correct way. Children have been explained – Look at everyone as a brother. This is soul’s throne. This is why the throne of Bhagirath Baba is also famous. Even when you explain to someone, think that you are explaining to your brothers. A great effort is required to maintain this vision. A high post is achieved only through hard work. The Father will also see like this; The Father’s eyes would also see the middle of the forehead. The soul is a small point. It is the soul which listens. You will see the Father also in the middle of the forehead. Baba as well as the brother (Brahma’s soul) is here. By thinking like this in the intellect, you too become oceans of knowledge, the children of the ocean of knowledge. It is very easy for you. This stage is a bit difficult for those living in the household. They listen and go to their homes. The atmosphere of that place is completely different. Here it is easy.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 21.03.09, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

[fluffy bunny]

He is in the shape of a thumb.

This is a minute point to raise (excuse the pun) but, from the Hindi, did he mean thumb or thumbprint?

A thumb is a ling shape.

I thought there was an interim period when they thought the soul was an oval (the star had an oval eminence).

A thumbprint shape would make much more sense.

[mbbhat]

A thumb is a ling shape.

God observation/churning.

[fluffy bunny]

It's funny how when we try to be too clever or sarcastic, we make mistakes to little embarrass ourselves. I think you mean "Good observation".

My question relates to when the soul was considered as an oval or having an oval eminence.

If you have nothing useful or intelligent to say, why not just say nothing?

[sita]

Nothing.

[mbbhat]

FB wrote:- If you have nothing useful or intelligent to say, why not just say nothing?

Again a useless personal comment.

Now, to the point. It has high importance, that is regarding how ling form might have evolved.

There is word- brahmaand, means egg shaped.

So- all these - egg shaped, thumb, seed, ling, etc have some/same similarities. Even if we take candle light, then it is like oval. This greatly disproves pbk theory and the third class belief of lowkik degraded people who then have started to believe ling as male bodily organ. [Much of these are already discussed. You know it].

To place a statue on a base/plane, it has to be flat at bottom, is it not? So- ling form might have come up due to that.

If you cannot catch the point, what can be done? Do you at least now feel that your level of understanding is poor? This is the reason why you cannot understand even a, b, c, ds of Murli points and me also in many cases.

Because we all are dull heads, is it not? We should first agree that. Then only knowledge will sit in our intellect.

Murli point:- Dull head may hee gyaan baith_taa hai = Knowledge sits only in dull heads. . But, I was surprised.

See how baba says- sometimes he says- knowledge sits in pure intellect. Then he also says it sits in dull head.

So- we have to become zero/blank/clean to become hero/powerful, is it not? If we do not empty/clean our mind, what all we fill, they will immediately become adulterated due to the existing waste and then the result would be just waste, is it not?

So- good luck.

[sita]

So- all these - egg shaped, thumb, seed, ling, etc have some/same similarities. Even if we take candle light, then it is like oval. This greatly disproves PBK theory and the third class belief of lowkik degraded people who then have started to believe ling as male bodily organ. [Much of these are already discussed. You know it].

The idea is that the ling represents a symbol of the whole body, that is in such an incorporeal state of the soul whilst in corporeal body that it does not hear whilst hearing, see whilst seeing etc. ie. as if the sense organs are not there. Sometimes they draw eyes on the shivling and they make it bigger than the saligram due to the big role it plays in the world drama.

[mbbhat]

The idea is that the ling represents a symbol of the whole body, that is in such an incorporeal state of the soul whilst in corporeal body that it does not hear whilst hearing, see whilst seeing etc. ie. as if the sense organs are not there. Sometimes they draw eyes on the shivling and they make it bigger than the saligram due to the big role it plays in the world drama.

It is already discussed somewhere here, a lengthy discussion of around three pages. So- I need not add anything to it.

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=39&t ... &start=150

You may continue with your views and beliefs.

[fluffy bunny]

If you cannot catch the point, what can be done? Do you at least now feel that your level of understanding is poor? This is the reason why you cannot understand even a, b, c, ds of Murli points and me also in many cases.

We've been over this insult 100 times before. Get it into your thick head for once and for all.

I understand, I don't accept. There is a difference.

As usual, your answer misses my question and the point. I am not interested in your musings, you're nothing but a crude distract with no positive input whatsoever.

I am only interested in the accurate historical development.

[mbbhat]

You are fully right. How can you be wrong? Because you are a complete soul, is it not?

That was reply just to your personal comment where sometimes you go fully out of track. Hope you got it. Nothing to bother.

So- if possible excuse me. Else, leave it to drama and continue your journey towards truth.

Thank you and all the best.
---------

I am only interested in the accurate historical development.

I have doubt here.

You are interested in personal details of members, sometimes ask specifically. You also ask questions to ex PBKs whether they have suffered mentally from AIVV, financially exploited by AIVV, you also begin to do personal comments, criticisms, and then interfere in others' discussions even when they are purely between BKs and PBKs or PBKs and ex PBKs where the discussion is just about knowledge and not at all related to Yagya history. And and sometimes the discussions would be even narrow. just upto about discussion about chariots

an example-

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2159&start=15

You do not believe either in bk or pbk philosophy. Still interfere now and then even in such discussions.

You also interfere in tpoics created by me- which were purely about bk-pbk related - and only to knowledge related. - not history.

I have no objection about that dear soul, but just pointed to you about the facts.

[arjun]

This is a minute point to raise (excuse the pun) but, from the Hindi, did he mean thumb or thumbprint?

A thumb is a ling shape.

He meant thumb only and not thumbprint. Angusth is a sanskrit word while angootha is a Hindi word. Both of them mean thumb.

[fluffy bunny]

Thank you.

I wonder if he was speaking to someone/s who did not even know what a lingum, in order was to illustrate?

What do you make of the way the soul is or was often illustrated, with a red egg shaped oval around it?

It doesn't seem to figure in the Murlis then. Was that just borrowed from the shape of saligrams?

Interestingly, I just read saligrams were originally thought to be representations of Vishnu but were actually ammonite fossils.