Flaws in PBK Philosophy

[mbbhat]

Dear rudr soul,

i had already given the links to site where many Hindus also believe that- ling is represenattion of formless form. some more here.

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 357AAWvtpH


Some more beliefs of lowkik people
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 821AAGoVLi

Some idiots translate "Linga" as penis which is Wrong and this myth is spread by missionaries and Muslims

The Linga has different meanings - shapeless, without organs, long drum like, etc

penis is called linga by some people due to its shape...the actual world for penis is "Shishna" in sanskrit

Shiva Linga here means, Shiva without form... it is like when we die our soul is called "Linga Sharira"

Shiva being worshipped as Linga means the Consciousness in its primodal form...where Consciousness is entering into the Eternal Energy (Shakti).

Thus shivalinga is the state of god, just before the manifestation of Universe, a little before bag bang.

Shiva is worshipped as Linga...because that is the highest of all manifested gods, formless, attributeless.... simple Consciousness and Energy (Shiva and shakti)

when even indians are not ready to accept ling as organ, Do PBKs believe their assumption will be accepted by all other religions?

[arjun]

Does not that imply that the ling is something that is accepted by universal. All believe in incorporeal and not in Shankar or worship of reproductive organ. so- is it not a proof that- ling is not an organ?

People of other religions believe in incorporeal only. That is why they will not be able to understand that the shivling is a memorial of incorporeal plus corporeal. The shooting/rehearsal of belief in incorporeal is done by most of the BKs in the Confluence Age.

I am not at all limting. i am saying that- I feel shivling is not an organ as assumed by PBKs or some of the Hindus.

Not some but all Hindus believe that Shivling is a memorial of the phallus of Shiv. In fact it tallies with Baba's repeated statement in the Murlis and the Bhagwadgita as well that victory over lust leads to victory over the world. And everyone knows that the organ of lust is phallus. It is Shankar alone who is able to control the organ of lust more than anyone else in the world. So, the memorial of Shivling is perfect and in accordance with Murlis as well as Gita.

It is indians who defame God maximum. And I think- saying ling as reproductive organ is one of the highest defaming of God. since indians made the most pure incorporeal symbol as ordinary and impure, other religions could not respect indians.

This is your misunderstanding. You see ling as an organ of impurity whereas ShivBaba says you have to control/pacify it to the extent that it becomes worshipworthy. In case of all other deities all other organs are worshipped, but in case of Shiv-Shankar Bholeynath, His ling (representative of his phallus as well as his incorporeal stage) is worshipped.

[mbbhat]

Spherical shaped ling

lingam1.jpg (8.02 KiB) Viewed 8365 times

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_i ... 8652973278
these do not have shape of male reproductive organ

[mbbhat]

People of other religions believe in incorporeal only. That is why they will not be able to understand that the shivling is a memorial of incorporeal plus corporeal. The shooting/rehearsal of belief in incorporeal is done by most of the BKs in the Confluence Age.

So- then it means BKs are more powerful than PBKs. Because it then implies PBKs' yaadgaar has no value or lesser value.

Not some but all Hindus believe that Shivling is a memorial of the phallus of Shiv.

False statement. Even Swami Vivekananda said- it is wrong. And many more proofs are already given.

This is your misunderstanding. You see ling as an organ of impurity whereas ShivBaba says you have to control/pacify it to the extent that it becomes worshipworthy.

I am not seeing just that organ as impurity.
I feel any part of body- if it belongs to Iron Aged world- is impure. that is why baba says- forget body and all bodily relations.
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whatever PBKs claim, but it never proves that ling is corporeal plus incorporeal.

[mbbhat]

Which is more difficult? Conquering sex or other organs?

I think- conquering other organs is more difficult. And in fact, it is said- any want is lust = Koyi bhi kaamanaa kaam hai.

and Baba says in Murli- those who believe lust as no. 01 enemy are fools. body consciousness is the no. 01 enemy.

Baba says- highest stage is ichchaa maatram avidyaa = forgetting what is desire.

So- even from that point- worshipping that organ --- i do no think has any value.

There are many people who have conquered sex- eg- Baahubali.
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Anyhow, it is up to PBKs.

[arjun]

whatever PBKs claim, but it never proves that ling is corporeal plus incorporeal.

Nobody is forcing you to accept our point of view. Be happy in your own world. :D

Which is more difficult? Conquering sex or other organs?

“तुम ब्राह्मणों का है छोटा सा कुल। छोटे-छोटे मठ-पंथ निकलते हैं ना। अरविन्द आश्रम है, कितना जल्दी-जल्दी वृद्धि को पाते हैं क्योंकि उनमें विकार के लिए कोई मना नहीं। यहाँ बाप कहते हैं काम महाशत्रु है। उन पर विजय पानी है। ऐसे कोई और कह न सके। नहीं तो उन्हों के पास भी हंगामा हो जाए। यहाँ तो है ही पतित मनुष्य, तो पावन बनने की बात नहीं सुनते। कहते हैं विकार बिगर बच्चे कैसे पैदा होंगे। उन बिचारों का भी दोष नहीं है। गीतापाठी कहते भी हैं भगवानुवाच – काम महाशत्रु है। उनको जीतने से जगतजीत बनते हैं, परन्तु समझते नहीं हैं। वह जब यह अक्षर सुनाते हैं तो उन्हों को समझाना चाहिए। इस पर बाबा कहते हैं – जैसे हनूमान दरवाज़े पर जुत्तियों में बैठता था, बाबा भी कहते हैं जाकर किनारे बैठ सुनकर आओ। फिर जब यह अक्षर कहें तो पूछो – इसका क्या रहस्य है? जगतजीत तो यह देवतायें थे। देवता बनने लिए तो इन विकारों को छोड़ना पड़े।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक ०२.०३.०९, पृ. २ एवं ३)

“The clan of you Brahmins is a small one. Small sects and sub-sects emerge, don’t they? There is Arvind (i.e. Aurobindo) ashram. They spread so fast because they do not prohibit lust. Here, the Father says – Lust is the biggest enemy. You have to gain victory over it. Nobody else can say like this. Otherwise, there will be uproar there too. Here people are sinful so they do not listen about issues to become pure. They say – how can children be born without lust. It is not the fault of those poor ones. Those who read Gita also say that God says – Lust is the biggest enemy. By gaining victory over it, you become the conquerors of the world. But they do not understand. When they narrate these words you should explain to them. On this issue Baba says – Just as Hanuman used to sit at the entrance in shoes (to listen to Ram’s words), Baba also says that you should go and listen to what they say by sitting at the periphery of their gatherings. Then, when they utter these words, ask them – what is the secret behind this? These deities were conquerors of the world. You will have to leave these vices to become deities.”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 02.03.09, pg 2&3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

Anyway, you are free to have your own views. There is no use arguing any further.

[Rudraakash]

1) i have quoted even from Swami Vivekananda's statement. He also said it is wrong. And even many Hindus also do not believe so.

Now, my further churning- Baba says- in olden days - sages used to say neti, neti about Ishwar. There was no Gyan(belief) of sarvavyaapi initially. Later they said- Ishwar is sarvavyaapi, everyone is god, I am sri sri sri 108 Jagadguru.

Thats why Baba says
These all are stupid, do't know anything. Only Father can explain the real mean,

2) If you believe that it represents the one who won sex, then can such a person's organ get erected? The ling shown in temple is in erected form- is it not?

So- do you mean to say- Mr. dixit's organ gets erected? [If you are willing, you may explain more- whether the organ gets erected but sperm does not come out, or any amount of sperm comes out- the power does not diminish, like that]

So silly explaination, one who won over the lust, then how it can erect, Erected ling shows that he is 100% male.
Remembrence of gyaan marg is shown in METAPHORIC LANGUAGE, such pictures are shown in Ajanta-Aloras's cave but stupid people cannot understand the real mean of purity behind the picture.

[arjun]

2) If you believe that it represents the one who won sex, then can such a person's organ get erected? The ling shown in temple is in erected form- is it not?

So- do you mean to say- Mr. dixit's organ gets erected? [If you are willing, you may explain more- whether the organ gets erected but sperm does not come out, or any amount of sperm comes out- the power does not diminish, like that]
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Moreover- the ling is not exact shape of the male organ. Because the organ has skin outside and its diameter is not constant through out its height. The diameter remains almost contant, but near to end, it increases a little bit and then almost a hemisphere at the end.

Now- if in the beginning itself- the devotees have had thought that - ling means organ, then why did they made it as perfect cylinder (spherical prism) or spherical pillar) shape and a hemisphere on top? There should have been some irregularities representing the organ properly- is it not?

mbbhat Bhai,
Before putting this question to Baba Virendra Dev Dixit, can I ask you whether you have ever asked your lokik Father the same question? Did you ever ask him whether his organ becomes erect or not or whether he discharges semen or not? I don't think it is the part of culture in any part of the world for the children to ask such questions to their parents. But here you want us to ask the Father of the world whether his organ gets erect or not? Don't you feel hesitant to ask such questions? Oh, I forgot that you are the same person who declared on the forum a few years ago that you can stand naked in a BK center to prove your purity.

Would you ask any of your Dadis or senior BK sisters the same questions in relation to Brahma Baba? I don't think you have that courage. You show your false courage only in front of the PBKs because you know we are not going to harm you in any way.

This does not mean that this subject is a taboo for ShivBaba or PBKs in the Advance Party. This subject has been dealt with in detail in the Murlis and discussions which are being posted on this forum since many years. You have never taken pains to read them. So, please read those Murlis and discussions before asking such questions.

Bhat Bhai, there are gems as well as wasteful things in the ocean (of knowledge). It is upto you whether you wish to churn the dirty things or whether you wish to obtain the gems.

As far as we are concerned we know that one of the highest form of Shivling is depicted at Amarnath where the ling is made up of ice. It depicts the final and perfect stage where the number one soul is able to calm/freeze the sexual/any other desires completely.

[mbbhat]

I am neither interested to discuss such things, But I have no hesitation to discuss. It is PBKs who claim such things. Hence if they claim, they should be able to support their claims regarding how the supreme God's form is linked with a human organ. anyhow, it is left to them.

I believe conquering hunger, thirst and sleep, smell and weather changes are higher challenges. Like- if one can get his body operated without anesthesia, then it is real conquering. Mama had cancer and it is believed that the pain was great. but no any sign of that was visible on her face.

I believe 8 souls conquer body consciousness. [conquering nature]

108 conquer just five vices. [conquering Maya]

Of the 16108 souls, consider number conquer lust. [conquering just the one vice, but also very significant]
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Regarding why Baba says- conquer lust, and even in Gita it is said- so- is that is the first and most important step. but it is not final. even in Gita, the final aim is given to conquer body consciousness (nashtamoha= free from all attachments).

If we ask what is essence of Gita- it is Nashtamoha smruti swaroop.
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More contradiction in theory of PBKs is-

PBKs believe srimath is manily about organization level and the dharna is individual level. And they believe that the pbk group depends on Bk group for their dharna to become complete.

so- it is as good as Mr. dixit's dharna depends on sister Vedanti. so- who is more pure among them? If Dixit does not depend on Vedanti for his dharna, then why the rest pbk group depend on BK group?

Or if- his dharna also depends on sister Vedanti, then how can he be called as the number one conquerer of lust? how can he be called as Baap samaan if he depends on Vedanti for his individual dharna?
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and even if we believe Shiv ling as human organ, then it is as good as bringing the level of god just to be detachment from one organ or vice.

[Rudraakash]

I believe 8 souls conquer body consciousness. [conquering nature]

108 conquer just five vices. [conquering Maya]

Of the 16108 souls, consider number conquer lust. [conquering just the one vice, but also very significant]

You mean to say that except 8, all will be in remain in body conscious, and except 16108 remains might be vicious and all can enter in heaven.
Very good philosophy.

[arjun]

I believe conquering hunger, thirst and sleep, smell and weather changes are higher challenges. Like- if one can get his body operated without anesthesia, then it is real conquering. Mama had cancer and it is believed that the pain was great. but no any sign of that was visible on her face.

If that was the case why would ShivBaba say repeatedly in the Murlis and why would it be declared in Gita that by conquering one's lust one can conquer the world?

I believe 8 souls conquer body consciousness. [conquering nature]

108 conquer just five vices. [conquering Maya]

Of the 16108 souls, consider number conquer lust. [conquering just the one vice, but also very significant]

Your manmat.

Regarding why Baba says- conquer lust, and even in Gita it is said- so- is that is the first and most important step. but it is not final. even in Gita, the final aim is given to conquer body consciousness (nashtamoha= free from all attachments).

If we ask what is essence of Gita- it is Nashtamoha smruti swaroop.

One will be able to conquer lust only by becoming nashtomoha smritilabdha. So, there is no contradiction. But saying that conquer of lust is secondary is manmat.

PBKs believe srimath is manily about organization level and the dharna is individual level. And they believe that the PBK group depends on BK group for their dharna to become complete.

so- it is as good as Mr. dixit's dharna depends on Sister Vedanti. so- who is more pure among them? If Dixit does not depend on Vedanti for his dharna, then why the rest PBK group depend on BK group?

The purity of BKs is like that of the sanyasis (cowardly purity). Just as Baba praises the sanyasis, similarly ShivBaba praises the dharna and seva of BKs. But the real purity is imbibed by the PBKs. If Lakshmi were to be higher than Narayan, then she should have been remembered as Satyalakshmi, but it is the story of SatyaNarayana that is remembered. The real purity comes from relationship with one (एक बाबा दूसरा न कोई - one Baba and none else). When BKs don't know who or where that one Baba is, how can they practice one Baba and none else. Their intellect is scattered in different dehdharis (Brahma Baba, Dadis, Didis, BK sisters like Sister Shivani, other teachers and brothers), luxuries like buildings, tolis, facilities, music, etc. Sometimes they remember the non-living Soul World (like sanyasis), sometimes they remember the unrealistic heaven and try to create such heavens in their centers or madhuban while the majority of world is suffering from poverty. Is this real purity? Not at all.

So, don't remain under the wrong impression that PBKs are dependent on BKs for purity. Yes, when the vijaymala comes, they will complement the PBKs with their dharna and seva, but that does not mean PBKs are dependent on them. In fact Baba says that when PBKs start imbibing more purity, only then will the vijaymala come.

and even if we believe Shiv ling as human organ, then it is as good as bringing the level of god just to be detachment from one organ or vice.

Again you are wasting our time by forcing us to repeat answers. I have already repeated many times that Shivling is not just the memorial of victory over lust, but also the memorial of the incorporeal stage of Shankar, the highest stage of nashtomoha smritilabdha. Do you want me to repeat it with bold and large letters if you are unable to read this simple sentence? Please try to understand. Nobody is forcing you to accept our point of view, but please don't waste our time by spreading false information or incomplete information.

I have already informed you that I don't have enough time. I have to do household work, official work (at least 8 hours) and other kind of Yagya service. For you, arguing with PBKs may be the only job, but we have many more important things to do. And the fruits of your adamancy and childish behaviour is that I am suffering from severe pain in my righ hand typing out answers to your repeated arguements (mostly irrational). For every one sentence of PBKs you write 10 sentences and if we respond you write another hundred and so on. If we don't respond you spread the untruth that we don't have answers. Anyway, it is not your mistake. I might have caused pain to you in the past births and you are just settling the karmic account. Do think over this request calmly.

OGS,
Arjun

[arjun]

I believe conquering hunger, thirst and sleep, smell and weather changes are higher challenges. Like- if one can get his body operated without anesthesia, then it is real conquering. Mama had cancer and it is believed that the pain was great. but no any sign of that was visible on her face.

If that was the case why would ShivBaba say repeatedly in the Murlis and why would it be declared in Gita that by conquering one's lust one can conquer the world?

I believe 8 souls conquer body consciousness. [conquering nature]

108 conquer just five vices. [conquering Maya]

Of the 16108 souls, consider number conquer lust. [conquering just the one vice, but also very significant]

Your manmat.

Regarding why Baba says- conquer lust, and even in Gita it is said- so- is that is the first and most important step. but it is not final. even in Gita, the final aim is given to conquer body consciousness (nashtamoha= free from all attachments).

If we ask what is essence of Gita- it is Nashtamoha smruti swaroop.

One will be able to conquer lust only by becoming nashtomoha smritilabdha. So, there is no contradiction. But saying that conquer of lust is secondary is manmat.

PBKs believe srimath is manily about organization level and the dharna is individual level. And they believe that the PBK group depends on BK group for their dharna to become complete.

so- it is as good as Mr. dixit's dharna depends on Sister Vedanti. so- who is more pure among them? If Dixit does not depend on Vedanti for his dharna, then why the rest PBK group depend on BK group?

The purity of BKs is like that of the sanyasis (cowardly purity). Just as Baba praises the sanyasis, similarly ShivBaba praises the dharna and seva of BKs. But the real purity is imbibed by the PBKs. If Lakshmi were to be higher than Narayan, then she should have been remembered as Satyalakshmi, but it is the story of SatyaNarayana that is remembered. The real purity comes from relationship with one (एक बाबा दूसरा न कोई - one Baba and none else). When BKs don't know who or where that one Baba is, how can they practice one Baba and none else. Their intellect is scattered in different dehdharis (Brahma Baba, Dadis, Didis, BK sisters like Sister Shivani, other teachers and brothers), luxuries like buildings, tolis, facilities, music, etc. Sometimes they remember the non-living Soul World (like sanyasis), sometimes they remember the unrealistic heaven and try to create such heavens in their centers or madhuban while the majority of world is suffering from poverty. Is this real purity? Not at all.

So, don't remain under the wrong impression that PBKs are dependent on BKs for purity. Yes, when the vijaymala comes, they will complement the PBKs with their dharna and seva, but that does not mean PBKs are dependent on them. In fact Baba says that when PBKs start imbibing more purity, only then will the vijaymala come.

and even if we believe Shiv ling as human organ, then it is as good as bringing the level of god just to be detachment from one organ or vice.

Again you are wasting our time by forcing us to repeat answers. I have already repeated many times that Shivling is not just the memorial of victory over lust, but also the memorial of the incorporeal stage of Shankar, the highest stage of nashtomoha smritilabdha. Do you want me to repeat it with bold and large letters if you are unable to read this simple sentence? Please try to understand. Nobody is forcing you to accept our point of view, but please don't waste our time by spreading false information or incomplete information.

I have already informed you that I don't have enough time. I have to do household work, official work (at least 8 hours) and other kind of Yagya service. For you, arguing with PBKs may be the only job, but we have many more important things to do. And the fruits of your adamancy and childish behaviour is that I am suffering from severe pain in my righ hand typing out answers to your repeated arguements (mostly irrational). For every one sentence of PBKs you write 10 sentences and if we respond you write another hundred and so on. If we don't respond you spread the untruth that we don't have answers. Anyway, it is not your mistake. I might have caused pain to you in the past births and you are just settling the karmic account. Do think over this request calmly.

OGS,
Arjun

[mbbhat]

You mean to say that except 8, all will be in remain in body conscious, and except 16108 remains might be vicious and all can enter in heaven.
Very good philosophy.

Sorry- That is your (wrong) guess.
i meant 8 will go to Paramdham and heaven with honour.
108 are just on the level of heaven.
Others will take numberwise punishment and become pure and then return.

[mbbhat]

If that was the case why would ShivBaba say repeatedly in the Murlis and why would it be declared in Gita that by conquering one's lust one can conquer the world?

Baba says- vishw ke maalik (amsters of world) even to citizens.

and it also may be to motivate children. So that children at least do that. If initially Baba gives high goal, no one will get courage .

Initially- Baba has said- I am akhand jyoti, then ling, then star, and then point. why not directly point?

Your manmat.

Thank you for the ceritificate.

these are my churnings.

If Lakshmi were to be higher than Narayan, then she should have been remembered as Satyalakshmi, but it is the story of SatyaNarayana that is remembered.

I do not say L is higher than Narayan. I believe Narayan is higher tha Lakshmi. But the difference is very less.

I believe the rank no. 2 becomes L and rank no. 1 becomes N.

Can PBKs say- why Lakshmi is worshipped more than N?

why temples of Jagadamba is there, but no Jagatpita?

why Lakshmi is worhispped as navadurgas? why not Narayan?

why people go to Jagadamba with many wishes?

I have already informed you that I don't have enough time.

I never forced you to reply.

[mbbhat]

Shivling or phallus shaped idols have been found in excavations all over the world.

Now, On one hand, they say- except Hindu religion, others will not recognize Shiva's practical part thorugh their Shankar.

On another hand, they say- shiv ling is found all over the world. What do PBKs claim here?
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Let us see the Murli point-

SM 15-1-81(3):- Parampita kahne se hi shivling Yaad aavegaa. European log god Father kahte hain. Parantu phir sarvavyaapi kah dete hain. Paththar may Bhagavaan vah nahin samajhte honge. Yahaan toh sabko paththar (Shivling) hee Yaad aataa hai. Samajhte hain is paththar may bhagavaan hai. Paththar may Bhagavaan samajh karke poojaa karte hain. AB VAH PATHTHAR ASUL KAHAAN SE AATAA HAI JISKO LING KAHAA JAATAA HAI. OOPAR PAHAADON SE PATHTHAR BAH_KAR AATE HAIN TOH PAANI MAY GHIS2 KAR GOL HO JAATE HAIN. Tum bachche samajh gaye ho Bhagavaan koyi paththar toh hai nahin. YAH UNKI PRATIMA BANAAYI HAI. -7, &- [ShivBaba]
= now, from where the stone comes which is calles as shivling? From the top, the stones come by flowing with water, getting wear and tear and then become round. you know, god is not stone, but his form is made so.

How does it prove that such stones represent Shankar's organ?
.


SM 26-10-83(2):- (Kahte) HAIN BARF KA LING BAN JAATAA HAI. MANUSHYON KO THAGNEY LIYE GAPODEY TOH BAHUT LAGAAYE HAIN. Toh un jismaani yaatraa par bahut takleef hoti hai. -40 [ShivBaba]

= they say- ling of ice forms (naturally). to cheat people mots of gapoda (lies) are made.

There is another Murli point where it says- the ling in amarnath is not a natural one, but made by poojaris to cheat people.

So- even by seeing the Tv serial pointed by Arjus soul does not prove anything, because it is people made.

there was a debate going on about the makara jyoti (the light during pilgrimage time ) that appears fro few minutes(I think) on that auspicious day at Swami ayyappa temple. in olden days- there was a saying- those who do penance (vrat) properly only will be able to see that light. Others will not be able to see that light.

No- that light is visible on TV broadcasting. so- what about old belief?

I have personally witnessed one place called YANA around 50 kms from SISR Taluk of Karnataka state.

When I visited there for the first time (around 1995), it was like paalu bidda sthithi (collapsed state). no much tourists where there. there was a temple , but no worship, no poojari was there.

but, later it became famous. now, there is a pooiari doing poojas,,,. In aroung 2007 when I went there, hat poojari used to tell- the oil which is there on the statue is not what we put on . it is natural. but when I asked him- Can I just go inside and see it? He did not allow. I said- i follow all the purity things what you follow, will you allow me?
He did not permit.

The point is- since i had seen the place before and sure that it was not like that what he says now, I knew that he is saying lie. So- by pointing to one TV serial made by lowkik people or by just pointing to the moon on Shankar;s head, PBKs cannot prove that it is Brama Baba.
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And regarding- the moon shown on Shiv/Shankar's head- in Bhaktimarg- it just represents that shiv protected moon god.

I think- another name for som is moon. and shiv is called as somnath.