Sakar (Corporeal) and niraakaar (Incorporeal)

[mbbhat]

Here the weightage and relation between corporeal and incorporeal can be discussed.
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From the topic- http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t= ... dhi#p41694

mbbhat wrote-

1) I think- remember incorporeal in corporeal - means remember soul in the body. Means- while doing karma, be in the conscious of both- soul and body- (else for one who is an ordinary effort maker, one cannot do karma if he is tries to be fully soul conscious directly) that is- I am soul (incorporeal) doing karma through the body (corporeal). OK- I cannot prove literally- but I have given logical explanation for that.

It is never said- Remember god in Chariot. so- how can PBKs interpret so? So- I do not think- without giving valid logical explanation, if one interprets the above in this way- he has no right to complain BKs that they are against srimath- because when Murli point clearly says- do not remember Chariot, or remember me there in Paramdham, then is the above PBKs' interpretation is not against srimath?

Arjun soul replied-

• "Bahut bachchey saadhaaran roop dekh moonjhtey hain, ultaa bolney lag padtey hain. Achchey-achchey bachchey unko bhi Maya chamaat maar deti hai. Samajhtey hain – bas jo kuch hai niraakaar hee hai. So toh theek hai na. Niraakaar nahee hota toh ham tum kaisey hotey. Parantu niraakaar ko toh rath jaroor chaahiye na. Rath bigar kya karengey, ShivBaba kya karega? Rath may aaye tab toh tum unsay milengey. Tumhee say sunoon, tumhee say baithoon. Toh rath jaroor chaahiye na. Achcha saakaar bigar niraakaar ko Yaad kar dikhaao. Kya tumko gyaan prernaa say milega? Fir merey paas aaye hee kyon ho? Yah Baba bhi kahta hai ki varsa toh ShivBaba say lena hai. ShivBaba kahtey hain mai is saadhaaran tan may baith padhaataa hoon. Padhaai toh jaroor chaahiye na. Bahut achchey-achchey bachhon ka maatha hee fir jaataa hai. Doh-chaar center kholtey toh bas ahankaar aa jaataa hai. Fir ultaa boltey rahtey hain. Fir kabhi buddhi may aa bhi jaataa hai ki yah hamney theek nahee kahaa, fir pashchaataap kartey hain. Baba kahtey hain mai saakaar bigar kaisey samjhaaunga. Ismay prernaa kee toh baat hee nahee." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 22.09.07, pg 2&3)

• “Many children get confused on seeing the ordinary form; they start speaking in an opposite way. Maya slaps even the nice children. They think – the incorporeal one is everything. That is alright, isn’t it? Had the incorporeal one not been there, how could I or you have existed? But the incorporeal one certainly requires a Chariot, doesn’t He? What can He do without a Chariot? What can ShivBaba do? Only when He comes in a Chariot that you can meet Him. (It is said that) “I shall listen only to you, I shall sit only with you.” So, the Chariot is certainly required, isn’t it? OK, remember the incorporeal without the corporeal and show. Will you get knowledge through inspiration? Then why did you come to me in the first place? This Baba also says that the inheritance has to be obtained from ShivBaba. ShivBaba says I sit in this ordinary body and teach. Knowledge is certainly required, isn’t it? The brains of very nice children get twisted. No sooner than they open two-four centers they become egotistic. Then they keep speaking in an opposite way. Then sometimes it even comes to their intellect that whatever they spoke was not proper. Then they repent. Baba says how will I explain without the corporeal (medium)? There is no question of inspiration in this at all.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 22.09.07, pg 2&3 published by BKs)

- Baba is telling that “remember the incorporeal without the corporeal and show. Will you get knowledge through inspiration?” But you say that there is no need to remember incorporeal through the corporeal. Look, mbbhat Bhai, all these topics have been discussed numerous times on this forum especially with you. But if you still want to remember Shiv as a point of light just as BKs are doing since1969 you are free to do so. But please don't waste our time by repeating the old questions.

[mbbhat]

i have got the same Murli point and would like to mention other sentences together.
Murli point No. 01)

SM 4-9-82(2, 3):- Jaise yahaan paththaron ki deevaal hai, vahaan soney ki deeval hogi. Hum paaras buddhi bante hain toh mahal bhi soney ke banaate hain. Puraanaa sab khalaas ho jaavegaa. IS DRAMA KO BADAA YUKTI SE SAMAJHNAA HOTAA HAI. Nayi duniyaa may sab kuch nayaa hotaa hai. YAH KITNI SAHAJ BAATEIN HAIN. ACHCHAA, YAH BHI SAMAJH MAY NAA AAYE, TOH BAAP KO BADE PYAAR SE Yaad KARO. ISLIYE YAH SAB MAHEEN BAATEIN BABA NE DER (= DERI = LATER) SE SAMJHAAYI HAIN. SHURU MAY BAHUT SAHAJ THOTHLI BAATEIN SUNAATE THAY. AISEY THODE HI KAHENGE BABA NE YAH SAB PAHLEY KYON NAHIN SUNAAYA KI AATMAA ITNI CHOTI HAI. Drama may jo kuch paas huvaa, kalp pahley maafik. Jaise samjhaayaa thaa, vaise samjhaa rahe hain. Manushy is drama ke bandhan may baandhaa huvaa hai. Kalp baad phir bhi aisey hi sunaavoongaa. BAHUT BACHCHE SAADHAARAN ROOP DEKH MOONJHTE HAIN. ULTAA BOLNEY LAG PADTE HAIN. Achche bachchon ko bhi Maya chamaat maar deti hai. Samajhte hain, bas jo kuch hai niraakaar hi hai. So- toh theek hai na. Niraakaar na hota toh hum tum kaise hote. Parantu niraakaar ko toh rath toh zaroor chaahiye na. Rath bigar kyaa karenge. ShivBaba kyaa karegaa. Rath may aave, tab toh tum unsey milenge. Tumhi se sunoo, tumhi se baithoon. .... Toh rath toh zaroor chaahiye na. ACHCHAA, SAAKAAR BIGAR NIRAAKAAR KO Yaad KAR DIKHAAVO. KYAA TUMKO GYAA PRERANAA SE MILEGAA. PHIR MERE PAAS AAYE HI KYON? Yah Baba bhi kahtaa hai varsaa toh ShivBaba se lenaa hai. ShivBaba kahte hain main is saadhaaran tan may baith padhaataa hun. PADHAAYI TOH ZAROOR CHAAHIYE NA. Bahut achche bachchon ka maathaa phir jaataa hai. 2, 4 centre kholey, toh bas, ahankaar aa jaataa hai. Toh bolte rahte hain. Phir kab buddhi may aa bhi jaataa hai, ki humney theek nahin kahaa. Phir pashchattaap karte hain. BABA KAHTE HAIN MAIN Sakar BIGAR KAISE SAMJHAAVOONGAA. ISMEY PRERANAA KI TOH BAATH HI NAHIN. MAIN TEACHER KE ROOP MAY BAITHA HUN. Gareebon par maathaa maarte hain. Daan karna chaahiye. Koyi bhi baath samajh may naa aaye, toh bolo- achchaa- Baba se poochkar batlaayenge. KYONKI GYAAN KI ABHI BAHUT MAARJIN HAI. AAGE CHALKAR SAMAJHTE JAAYENGE. DIN PRATIDIN TUM NAYI2 POINTS SUNTE RAHENGE. TUM BACHCHON KO TOH BILKUL HEE NIRAHANKAARI BAN RAHNAA HAI. AHANKAAR AANE SE HI PHIR SAARAA KICHDAA BAAHAR NIKAL AATAA HAI. KICHDEY KI JAISE VARSHAA HOTI HAI. Kahte hain gyaan yagy may asuron ke kichdaa padaa. Vah samajhte hain shaayad gobar aadi daalte honge. Sachmuch yah gobar hai. PHAALTU JAISE BOLNEY LAG PADTEY HAIN. KRODH AADI KARTE, YAH JAISE GOBAR AADI DAALTE HAIN. Chalte2 kisko grahachaari baith_ti hai, toh tedey ban jaate hain. Maya thappad mar ekdum insolvent banaa deti hai. –6, 6-

= Like there is wall of stones here, there would be walls of gold there. When we become pure intellect, even the buildings will become that of gold. Everything that is old will get destroyed. By good intellect (yukti), the secret of drama should be understood. In new world, everything would be new. How easy matters these are (to understand). Good. Even this if not understood, then remember Father and property. Hence deep matters- Baba explained/taught later. In the beginning, simple things were taught. (You) cannot say- why Baba initially itself did not say that- soul is a small point. What all have passed in drama it is as previous Kalpa. How it was explained before, in the same way (I am) explaining now. Man is bonded in this drama. In the next Kalpa also, I will teach in the same way. Many children confuse with the ORDINARY FORM. They start speaking in an opposite way. Maya slaps even the nice children. They think – the incorporeal one is everything. That is alright, isn’t it? Had the incorporeal one not been there, how could I or you have existed? But the incorporeal one certainly requires a Chariot, doesn’t He? What can He do without a Chariot? What can ShivBaba do? Only when He comes in a Chariot that you can meet Him. (It is said that) “I shall listen only to you, I shall sit only with you.” So, the Chariot is certainly required, isn’t it? OK, remember the incorporeal without the corporeal and show. Will you get knowledge through inspiration? Then why did you come to me in the first place? This Baba also says that the inheritance has to be obtained from ShivBaba. ShivBaba says I sit in this ordinary body and teach. Knowledge is certainly required, isn’t it? The brains of very nice children get twisted. No sooner than they open two-four centers they become egotistic. Then they keep speaking in an opposite way. Then sometimes it even comes to their intellect that whatever they spoke was not proper. Then they repent. Baba says how will I explain without the corporeal (medium)? There is no question of inspiration in this at all.” I am seated in the form of teacher. More effort is put on poor people. One should donate. If you did not understand anything, say- good, we will ask Baba and then reply. Because now, there is margin of knowledge. You will understand as time passes. Everyday- you will listen to new points. You children should be fully ego free. When ego comes, all dirt comes out. It is like rain of dirt. It is said- in gyaan yagy, there were obstacles of gobar, {means shhit}. They believe such ******* would had fallen to yagy in physical sense. Actually these are like gobar. They (children) speak waste. They do anger. These are like putting gobar .........

gobar= shhit
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I think PBKs have not taken the points mentioned in bold seriously.

Baba is saying that- there is margin for knowledge now. i would be telling more points later. so- do not be egoistic, Be ego free. You will not get knowledge through inspiration

so- I feel when Baba said- "OK, remember the incorporeal without the corporeal and show"- it does not mean that one should remember god in Chariot. It means that- without knowledge (which definitely comes through corporeal media), one will not know how to remember what to remember, what /i am really and fully. [it was later that baba said - soul is a point. so- if children loose company of Chariot and become egoistic, then they will fall shortage of knowledge. This is what Baba is stressing here].

Baba's question- Then why did you come to me in the first place?- This implies- Baba is challenging (so that children can realize better) children by the statement- "OK- remember the incorporeal without corporeal and show"- Because without coming to Chariot even once- it is impossible to remember incorporeal, because then they would not have even a bit knowledge at all.

So- i feel Baba's challenge- does not to remember god in Chariot. It implies- do not be egoistic, and listen to knowledge properly.
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More points- regarding Sakar and niraakaar- when I find, I will put here.

[mbbhat]

in the above post , gobar = cow dung or shhit

I do not know. there was difficulty in posting. It did not take there.

[mbbhat]

Murli point No. 02) AM 24-10-77(2):- Agar niraakaari sthiti may sthit hokar nirahankaari bano toh nirvikaari toh automatically ho hee jaavenge. Nirahankaari bantey zaroor ho, lekin niraakaar hokar nirahankaari nahin bantey ho. Yuktiyon se apne ko alp samay ke liye nirahankaari banaatey bhi ho. Lekin nirantar niraakaari sthiti may sthit ho Sakar may aakar yah karm kar rahi hun, yah smruti vaa abhyaas natural vaa nature na ban_ney ke kaaran nirantar nirahankaari sthiti may sthit nahin ho paatey ho. Jaise koyi kahaan se aataa hai toh usko sadaa yah smruti rahti ki main yahaan se aayaa hun. Aisey yah smruti sadaiv rahe ki MAIN NIRAAKAAR SE Sakar MAY AAKAR YAH KARM KAR RAHI HUN. Beech2 may har karm karte huye is sthiti kaa abhyaas karte raho toh niraakaari so Sakar may aane se nirahankaari aur nirvikaari zaroor ban jaavenge. Yah abhyaas alp kaal ke liye karte bhi ho. Abhi isee abhyaas ko sadaa kaal ke liye transfer karo. ..... -80

= Being in niraakaari stage and then coming into egoless stage will make you viceless. You act ego freely. But you do not become nirahankaari (ego free) while being in niraakaari stage. By yukti and for temporary period you act egolessly. But since you do not practice this stage continuously - I am niraakaar (point form soul) acting through this Sakar (body) - you cannot ( do not) remain in the stage of ego free for all the time. Like when a person moves from one place to another, he will be always having smruti that- I have come from such a place to such a place, - similarly- always have this remembrance- I the niraakaar have come in this sakara and is doing action. Intermittently- while doing every action- do this practice- then you will become egoless and viceless. You do this practice for a few time (temporarily). Now- do this practice for full time.
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Here Baba says- one should think of soul while doing action. One should have feeling that- i have come to this body from the Paramdham and is doing action. even while being here, one should have this feeling.

It does not imply- Remember God (incorporeal) in Sakar (Chariot).

Note the words- You do this practice temporarily. So- Baba certifies that- you(BKs) already know this practice and do this. But, do this for full time, give 100% attention.

[mbbhat]

Murli point no. 03)AM 6-1-83(1, 2):- Sirf double refine petrol ki avashyakathaa hai. Ab double refined petrol kounsaa hai? EK HAI NIRAAKAARI NISHCHAY KI NASHAA KI MAIN AATMAA HUN, BAAP KAA BACHCHAA HUN. DOOSRAA HAI Sakar ROOP MAY SARV SAMBANDHON KA NASHAA. SIRF BAAP AUR BACHCHE KA SAMBANDH KA NASHAA NAHIN. LEKIN PRAVRUTTIMARG, PAVITR PARIVAAR HAI. TOH BAAP SE SARV SAMBANDHON KE RAS KA NASHAA Sakar ROOP MAY CHALTE FIRTE ANUBHAV HO. YAH NASHAA AUR KHUSHI NIRANTAR SAHAJ YOGI BANAA DETI HAI. ISLIYE NIRAAKAARI AUR SAKAARI DOUBLE REFINE SAADHAN KI AVASHYAKATHAA HAI. -7- [Sakar_niraakaar]

= Just double refined petrol is necessary. Now, what is the double refined petrol? One is- the intoxication of the faith in the incorporeal, that is- I am a soul, child of Father. The second is- intoxication of all the relations in corporeal form. Just not the relation of Father and child. But, it is pravruttimarg (house hold path), pure family. So- the intoxication of all the relations with the Father- in corporeal form should be experienced while walking and moving. (not just when being physically with the Chariot). This intoxication and happiness will make you continuous and easy yogis. Hence incorporeal and corporeal- double refined technique is necessary.

I feel here Baba is directing to feel the incorporeal power in action and not that he directs to remember Him in Chariot.
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[mbbhat]

Murli point No. 04)
SM 25-9-73(3, 4):- Baap may itna regard pyaar rakhna mushkil hain. Samajhte hain vah to nirakar hain. Yah hai unka rath. Unko hum kya karenge. Hum to nirakar ko hi Yaad karenge. Achchaa nirakar ki godh may jaakar dikhaavo. Nirakar saath khaavo, pivo. Tum inkay paas kyon aate ho? Kahte hain nahin Baba, aap to ismay ho. Ismay viraajmaan samajh chalte hain. Yah badi mushkil kiski buddhi may rahta hain. Baba bhi bhool jata hai. Rath hote huye bhi bhool jata hun. Aise to bahut gapode lagate rahte hain humaaraa Baba may bahut pyar hain. Hum itnay ghante baba ko Yaad karte hain. Baba kahte hain Main bhi pooraa Yaad nahin kartaa hun. Main to ek hi sikhiladhaa bachchaa hun. Phir bhi main purushaarth bahut karta hun. Athaah koshish kartaa hun. To bhi bhool jaata hun. Aise lovely Baap ka number one bachchaa hun. To bhi Maya aisee prabal hai jo Yaad karne nahin deti. Baba apna anubhav batlaate hain. Chart to baht likhte hain. Baba samajhte hain gapode maarte hain. Koyi to batlaate hi nahin.

= To keep good love and regard in Father is difficult. (Children) think- “HE is incorporeal, this is his Chariot. What should we do with this? We will remember just the incorporeal". Good. Go to lap of incorporeal and show. Eat and drink with incorporeal. (Then) why do you come near to this? Children (then) say- No Father, you are in this. We think you are in this. It is difficult that this point remains in intellect. Even Baba also forgets this. Even if I am Chariot, I forget this. Many children just simply say we have great love to Baba. We remember Baba so many hours. Baba says, even me do not remember fully. I am the only sikiladha (long last and now found) child. Even then I put lot of effort. Even then I forget. I am number one child of such a lovely Father (ShivBaba). Even then Maya is so powerful that it does not allow to remember. Baba tells his experience. Many write charts. Baba understands – children write lies. Many do not speak (convey truth).

Here - Baba challenges. even though there is word that- you need to have close relation with the Chariot, there is no point that says- remember god in Chariot.

Of course, then why should we remember Chariot? It is to develop unity, feeling of family. and brahma Baba is number one.

Baba says- such children who do not give respect to Chariot and say- we do remembrance of incorporeal, just speak lies that- we remember so many hours.

So- I feel Baba is pointing that ego is not good.

Baba is challenging- "Go to lap of incorporeal and show. Eat and drink with incorporeal."- if PBKs say- Chariot is necessary for this, is it not? then why does ShivBaba says- even Chariot (Baba) forgets this?

so- even though PBKs have some point to argue here, I think- it will not fit accordingly to their claims.

And BKs do not disrespect the Chariot. they put photo of brahma Baba, agree that he is number one. So- if PBKs accuse that Bk method of remembrance is wrong- then ShivBaba's comment- "HE is incorporeal, this is his Chariot. What should we do with this?" does not fit here.

Note that- even in this Murli point- Baba has pointed the importance of love and regard. In many points it is said- if you fall from the intellect of Chariot, you fall even from the incorporeal. So- I think- here- the respect should be important.
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Of course, now Brahma Baba is not present physically. so- what should BKs do? They should go to another Chariot (Gulzar Dadi). Of course, Avyakt Baapdaadaa even eats there. but not as much as it was with brahma Baba. there is at least a Chariot.
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PBKs question - where is "Tumhi se khaavoon, tumhi se baithoon = Eating with you, sitting with you?" to BKs.

now- in this Murli point it is said- "go to lap" .

So- does it mean physical lap? If so, does Mr. dixit allows every pbk to sit on his lap?
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PBKs say- Brahma Baba is not number one, He is Hiranyakshyap, Ravan, number one liar guru, etc.

But-
PBKs read Avyakt Vani/Murli from this Hiranyakashyap and claim that they have real Gita. The same Hiranyakashyap is dharmaraj and also Big mother!

[mbbhat]

Murli point no. 05) - In this point, Baba explains how to give sakaash (search light ) others.

SM 2-3-89(2):- Samjho koyi ko current deni hai. Tumhaara bhi koyi achchi service karnevaalaa hai, to unko madad karni hai. UNKI ATMA KO Yaad KARNA PADTA HAI. SHARIR KO Yaad KAR PHIR ATMA KO Yaad KARNA HAI. Yah yukti rachni hai. Serviceable bachche ko taklif hai to unko madad karni hai. Baap ko Yaad karna hai, phir khudko bhi atma samajh KUCH NA KUCH unki atma ko bhi Yaad karna hai. Yah jaise search light dena hota hai. Aise nahin sirf ek jagah baith Yaad karna hai. Chalte phirte bhojan kharte bhi Baap ko Yaad karo. Doosre ko current dena hai to phir ratri ko bhi jaago. Bachchon ko samjhya hai savere uthkar jitna Baap ko yad karenge utna kashish hogi. Baba bhi light denge. Baba ka yahi dhandha hai. Unko search light dene ka. Jab bahut search light deni hoti hai to bhi Baap ko bahut Yaad karte hain. To Baap bhi search light dete hain. ATMA KO Yaad KARNA ARTHAAT SEARCH LIGHT DENA. Inko bhi search light deni hai. Phir inko krupa kaho, aashirvaad kaho, kuch bhi kaho. Serviceable beemaar hoga to taras padega. Raat ko jaagkar bhi unki aatma ko Yaad karenge. Kyonki unko power ki darkaar hai. Yaad karte hain to unko return may Yaad milti hai. -85


= Assume , you need to give current to someone. If there is someone who is good, serviceable, so you need to help them. There is need to remember that soul. (First) remember the body and then the soul. This yukti should be followed. If any serviceable child is in problem, you should give them help. Father should be remembered, then by considering yourself as soul, to certain extent, the other soul also should be remembered. This is like giving search light. It is no that you should remember just by sitting at one place. While walking, moving, eating, remember Father. If you need to give current to others, awake in the night. It is taught to children that- how much you remember during early morning, you will have attraction. Baba also will give light. The work of Baba is this only. Giving search light to them. When lot of search light is to be given, then (children) remember Father a lot. Then Baba also gives search light. Then you call it as- krupa (similar to giving gift), asheervaad(blessings), or anything. If any serviceable child is patient (caught by disease), sympathy will come. Being awakened in the night, (you will) remember that soul. Becase they need power of remembrance. .....

[arjun]

mbbhat Bhai,
We PBKs have realized on the basis of the Murlis and Avyakt Vanis that remembering the incorporeal Father Shiv through the corporeal Chariot is the best way to remember God. We have provided ample Murli proofs in this regard. It is upto you to accept or reject them.

Well, if you do not agree with us, it is your sweet will. You are free to remember Shiv in non-living Soul World or through the non-living picture of Brahma Baba or through the false Chariot of Gulzar Dadiji or any other Chariot.

Have a nice day,
OGS,
Arjun

[mbbhat]

Murli point no. 06)
SM 5-3-09(1):- PPB ke bachche hum braahman hain. Yah bahuton ko bhool jata hai. Jabki tum Baap ko Yaad karte ho to Brahma ko bhi Yaad karnaa pade. Hum braahman kul ke hai. Yah bhi nasha chadhe. Bhool jaate hain to yah nasha nahin chadhtaa ki hum braahman kul ke hain, phir devtaa kul ke banenge. [vimp]

= We are children of Prajapita brahma (and hence) Brahmins. Many forget this. Since you remember Father (Shiv), you should also remember Brahma. (Because) we belong to braamhin kul. This intoxication also should rise. When you forget this- we belong to braahmin kul and then become deities- - this intoxication does not rise/present.
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I think this gives reply to those who criticize BKs like- BKs have put photos of brahma Baba, they have created tomb, etc, etc.