Need help to understand teachings of PBK

[sita]

Yes, it has been debated many times, but the debate has not been over yet. I cannot say something reasonable against the historical facts. Given the distance in time, translations, different callendars etc. it is possible there is difference in numbers plus, minus and the given facts had occured after Copper Age. The idea is recorded history is available only after Copper Age. People start recording history once sorrow begins, no one counts the days in happiness.

[T.K]

With the BKs going on the air through PMTV and programmes on other channels, openly talking about the cycle, the quadrants, their durations, etc., these debates are likely come out in the open instead of being confined to the vestiges of the web.
We are entering an interesting period, one way or another!

[fluffy bunny]

With the BKs going on the air through PMTV and programmes on other channels, openly talking about The Cycle, the quadrants, their durations, etc., these debates are likely come out in the open instead of being confined to the vestiges of the web.

Are they coming out with 5,000 years specifically etc? What are they saying about the Confluence Age?

I suspect there is no mention of the failed predictions of Destruction or philosophical alterations of the past and most people will just carry on as usual. Presumably the BKs are India's eccentric Jehovah Witnesses? There are loads of little old ladies in the Jehovah Witnesses going around in the West offering a similar mix of limited salvation and the End of the World.

I don't know about India, but I suspect it is true there too ... dodgy, superstitious religion is, on the whole, in decline. It's a strange thing but I don't think the 'facts' of any religion's beliefs are that important to most followers. The attraction is more about group belonging, the feeling of the group, and what it offers individuals that attracts people. They could and can believe anything. And beyond a certain point, 'critical mass' plays a part and sweeps people along with it thoughtlessly.

I think the PBKs offer something specific to the BK community, a more orthodox and metaphysical approach which is committed to the beliefs rather than the material benefits of running a religion, e.g. the power and wealth accumulation and social climbing of the BKWSU. Or as Walliss put it, a Protestant reaction to the Vatican like indulgences of the Brahma Kumaris.

PariXit, have you done the Advance Knowledge course? It would be good if you were to ask the PBKs to explain the difference between it and Bhakti.

[fluffy bunny]

I am sorry. I have no idea what you are saying.

Perhaps you should try writing in Spanish then we could use Google translator to understand you. I think Google translator would do a better job.

I am serious. Written English has certain rules and needs to be punctuated.
It is not possible for an English speaker to understand you.
I feel even more sorry for those whose second language is English trying to understand you.

As for the Advance Knowledge course, you have to do it in a methodical manner with a teacher who can check whether you have understood or not. I don't know if the PBKs do a correspondence course. Perhaps these days they can do a Skype course?

Of course, to accept it you will have to give up your Bhakti beliefs.

[arjun]

I am serious. Written English has certain rules and needs to be punctuated.
It is not possible for an English speaker to understand you.
I feel even more sorry for those whose second language is English trying to understand you.

I agree. Parixit Bhai needs to make some extra effort to improve his English and write as briefly as possible. Otherwise, people would simply ignore his posts.

[fluffy bunny]

Practicing BK Gyan given I did found AK Gyan so naturaly. Yeah, I was receiving the courses by, later on through a nimmit Sister

Sorry, please let me ask this again.

Did you do the formal PBK/AIVV course after the formal BK/BKWSU course? Have you done both?

The reason I ask is because you really do not seem to have understood or accepted either and have it all mixed up with Hare Krishna.

You write one or two BK words, as if you want people here to accept you as one of the BK/PBK community ... and then you spin off and say something like this:

So there are two kinds of religion. Vyavichari and Avyavichari in order for you to check that if you're advancing you have to deal with Bhakti wether you're in knowledge or not...

Both BK and PBK Knowledge are clear and simple ... Bhakti is the path of degradation, of little benefit and has to be discarded. "The Knowledge" is of an entirely different order.

If you are not ready to discard 100% of your Bhakti ... you should forget the BKWSU/AIVV. You cannot mix the two.

[T.K]

Are they coming out with 5,000 years specifically etc? What are they saying about the Confluence Age?

Oh yes. They are not holding back on anything - everything is out in the open. Sessions from Mt. Abu., London, etc., are broadcast live.
It is not different from what a regular BK hears on a daily basis at centers.
It is almost as if they are now revealing the Father.

I suspect we will see a healthy debate on how some of the historical claims by BK stack up against the history as recorded by man.

I suspect there is no mention of the failed predictions of Destruction or philosophical alterations of the past and most people will just carry on as usual.

Of course, not.
But interestingly B.K Shivani is using the December 2012 destruction talk (presumably based on the now refuted Mayan Calendar) to advertise some of her shows.

I don't know about India, but I suspect it is true there too ... dodgy, superstitious religion is, on the whole, in decline. It's a strange thing but I don't think the 'facts' of any religion's beliefs are that important to most followers. The attraction is more about group belonging, the feeling of the group, and what it offers individuals that attracts people. They could and can believe anything. And beyond a certain point, 'critical mass' plays a part and sweeps people along with it thoughtlessly.

India is crucible that can only be understood from within and not without. Its history is replete with gurus who have claimed themselves to be Gods, who have promised salvation, solutions to issues ranging from the physical to metaphysical, etc. etc.
I think, the Indians have learned to live with imperfection, knowing full well there is not a single solution out there that is a panacea. At least not yet.
I suspect, with the BK teachings, many BK followers are well aware of the imperfections, but choose to continue for a variety of reasons, one of which is that they do see a net benefit. Undoubtedly there are many many instances in which people have benefited from the meditation, by following the diet (which is not that hard for many Indians since the BK dietary restrictions are not new), by modulating their thought process, etc.
In comparison to other movements, BKs seem to have a much smaller mass so far.

[fluffy bunny]

Oh yes. They are not holding back on anything

Of course, not. But interestingly ...

You appear to contradict yourself within a breath and idiosyncratic statements like "revealing the Father" must cast you in the BK camp, or post-BK camp. Not that I have anything against that ... but you are not coming across like the "academic historian" you presented yourself as.

What is your position and what do you want to say really?

B.K Shivani is using the December 2012 destruction talk (presumably based on the now refuted Mayan Calendar) to advertise some of her shows.

Yes, BK Shivani "international management trainer" is an interesting case, I find her quite bossy and aggressive at times ... but she is perfect for the BKs as, living with a husband, she makes them look like they are something they are not. It's funny but that closed intellect of hers, which had her not "realising" the Knowledge for so many years, still travels with her to an extent.

Is she making personal money out of all the corporate coaching stuff she does?

Shivani is blanking out all the stuff that anyone with a sense of ethics and responsibility would have to bring up. She is parroting all the PR BS perfectly ... although I think she is more like a robot than a parrot. The 2012 stuff will have her falling on her face.

And who is that "straight" woman the BKs have set up to interview her ... is she a BK, or a demi-BK too? I'd love to see Shivani in a real interview situation and not some BK controlled set up.

India is crucible that can only be understood from within and not without.

Romantic myth ... you're saying something like "you can only understand cancer if you had had cancer" which, luckily most cancer specialists have not. Can a goldfish "understand" the water in its bowl if it has never been in any other water or bowl?

The answer to both metaphors is "yes and no" ... there are different kinds of understand. The thought that India is somehow unique, shrouded in mystery and above Westerners' understanding is a silly patriotic myth even Indophiles indulge in. Anyone with a reasonable clarity and general understand of humanity can make judgements ... and it is too big to generalise as 'one'.

Therefore, I answer you by asking, "which India?"

Hopefully, amongst the young at least, the grip of superstition and conformity is waning.

[ANU]

Frieds
Travel through India and watch people - deseases, dirt, deadly smelly householdes and environement, feacal flowing in the streets and people urinating in the strees ---- see what the society does. Yet, BKs and PBKs who preach saving water and other resources prefers to use bath and wash cloths, and not using the bidet which is popular even in public toilets in Europe... Very very consistent with BK and AIVV propaganda of saving sources. Go and see how much water girls and mothers use in ashrams to wash their clothes in India.

[T.K]

You appear to contradict yourself within a breath and idiosyncratic statements like "revealing the Father" must cast you in the BK camp, or post-BK camp. Not that I have anything against that ... but you are not coming across like the "academic historian" you presented yourself as.

What is your position and what do you want to say really?

Well, I was quoting the BKs. is not "revealing the Father through the medium of science" one of their prophecies? Perhaps I should have put the text within quotes, like you did.
All I was trying to say was that to me their programming appears to be centered around spreading the teachings as fast as possible.

The thought that India is somehow unique, shrouded in mystery and above Westerners' understanding is a silly patriotic myth even Indophiles indulge in.

I did not claim Westerners cannot understand India/Indians. However I cam claiming that understanding India and its culture requires spending time in India.
For example, one common and repeated theme in many threads on this forum is about why the BK hierarchy wouldn't admit to the overly simplistic representation of their early history. In my assessment, understanding their culture will give a direct clue to this behavior (I am not condoning or condemning the behavior per se, BTW).
Your analogy with cancer and understanding cancer is misplaced.

[fluffy bunny]

It is wrong to blame India for the Brahma Kumaris standards. There are plenty of humble, rational or ethical people in India. Spend time in simple Catholic areas and you see similarly hagiographic stories. It is nothing special.

However, if you said something like, "the Brahma Kumari culture is rooted in middle class Sindi ego (BK use of the word)" then I might agree with you.

Yes, in order to spread their influence quickly, they make compromised ... part of me think they have borrowed the End of the World from the Christian groups because it "compresses available time" in order to encourage followers to devote more within the short period of time.

[T.K]

It is wrong to blame India for the Brahma Kumaris standards.

I am not blaming anyone for anything! But you cannot discount the influence of the prevalent culture of the 1930s - 1950s India on a group of children who stayed isolated from the outside world in their formative years. Of course they were later joined by young adults in the 50s and 60s - but they too were products of a similar culture and in some sense disengaged with the rest of the society.

[T.K]

Disc.CD No.549, dated 7.4.08 at Jammu
Extracts-Part-2
..
Time: 19.35-21.08
Student: Baba, Brahma Baba banished his lokik children of blood relation, [ saying:] “If you wish to follow, follow The Knowledge; otherwise, get out”. But why does he have so much attachment for the children in the path of knowledge? He still enters Gulzar Dadi.
Baba: Is he a son or a daughter in knowledge? (Student: Daughter.) And does that soul have a subtle body or a physical body at present?
Student: A subtle body.
Baba: Then? Even if we speak about Brahma’s children; who are his children? As long as Brahma was alive in a corporeal form, Shiv played an incorporeal part, in the form of a point. Brahma played a part in the corporeal form. Who were the children of both those mother and Father? Were there any children or not who enter the advance (knowledge) later on? Who are they? Arey, were there any souls in the form of children or not?
Student: There were.
Baba: Who were they? Prajapita and Jagadamba.

Above is a recent abstract posted by Arjun from what I presume is an exchange between Virendra Dev Dixit and PBK student. The students seems to be asking why is BB still attached to the original group of students, to which Virendra Dev Dixit replies. I am not sure I followed his response, could a PBK on the forum please clarify further?
Thanks,
T.K

[arjun]

T.K,
Brahma Baba may not have displayed attachment for his lokik children, but since his original sanskars are that of a mother, he developed attachment for the alokik children, giving them the best facilities and the greatest love that is possible and also showed highest level of tolerance towards the children. But somewhere in his mind he developed expectation and attachment for his alokik children which led to heart attack within a couple of days of registration of BK family as an institution in January, 1969 (when the very alokik children, whom he pampered, did not follow ShivBaba's Shrimat). It is because of this attachment that he still goes to Mount Abu to deliver Avyakt Vanis through Gulzar Dadiji.

Moreover, the Sun of Knowledge, i.e. Prajapita Brahma has not yet been revealed thoroughly in the world of Brahmins or the outside world. This is the reason why the Moon of knowledge, i.e. Brahma Baba still goes to Mount Abu (the memorial of sunset point) to sustain the small children who are still drinking the milk of basic knowledge.

[T.K]

Thanks, Arjun.
I wouldn't have been able to infer what you explained from the Q&A extract.