Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

[pbkindiana]

shivsena wrote:
Do you have any proof that Bharat(alias Ram's soul alias vd) was sevakram in the beginning of the Yagya....just give me the concrete proofs(not dubious Murli points) that all 3 souls who are regarded as future Trimurti by PBKs are the same souls who existed in 1937, when Shiva started the Yagya.

If everything is proved in the beginning or in the middle, then where is the need of exam, churnings and the formation of the rosary of 108? It is said revelation takes place in the end.

indie.

[arjun]

Do you have any proof that Bharat(alias Ram's soul alias vd) was sevakram in the beginning of the Yagya....just give me the concrete proofs(not dubious Murli points) that all 3 souls who are regarded as future Trimurti by PBKs are the same souls who existed in 1937, when Shiva started the Yagya.

Proofs have already been provided on this forum. It is upto you to believe them.
By the way do you have a single proof that Om Radhey Mama is no.1 and all others have made lesser efforts than her?

[Roy]

Do you have any proof that Bharat(alias Ram's soul alias vd) was sevakram in the beginning of the Yagya....just give me the concrete proofs(not dubious Murli points) that all 3 souls who are regarded as future Trimurti by PBKs are the same souls who existed in 1937, when Shiva started the Yagya.

Dear Shivsena Bhai

“Now the Father sits face to face and teaches us through hints.” [Mu 25.04.09]

Here are some of those hints, I am sure there are many more...

“Everything, whatever happened in the beginning, has to happen in the end.” [Mu 18.10.72]
“The birth of Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar is together. It is not just Shivjayanti (birthday of Shiv) but Trimurti Shivjayanti (birthday of Trinity Shiv).” [Mu 3.10.05]
"Those who come first only remain till the end. It’s a wonderful drama, isn’t it?" [Mu 6.3.74]
"Very nice children, who used to play very nice roles for 5-10 years, get defeated (by Maya)." [Mu 8.7.78]
Soul is recalled (into some body) to explain that you used to come (here in your previous birth). You had been explained so much to remember Father, and to become pure. But you never listened. Now you have lost your post. Those who expired earlier (might have taken rebirth and) have grown up now and somebody must have attained the age of 20 and some 25. They may receive this knowledge (in their present birth also)." [Mu 17.2.75]
“There are many children who teach better than Mother-Father. ShivBaba's case is different, his teachings are highest, but children who are cleverer than Mama-Baba are present now." [Mu 19-3-73]
“Brahma gets completed at the age of 100.” [Mu 16-7-70]
"Brahma's age is 100 years. I enter in him in his Vaanprashta stage, i.e. at the age of 60 years." [Mu 17-7-74]
"Corruption, Irreligiousness, Unrighteousness, vices, insolvency and sufferings will come to an end in Bharat within 9 years, and Golden Aged Deity-world-Sovereignty of Shri Lakshmi and Shri Narayana will come to be re-established soon after the forth-coming huge world Destruction." [Ladder, June 1967]
"There was only Bharat in the new World. He who was pure becomes impure. He, who was the first Brahmin becomes the first deity, and then the first worshipper." [Mu 1-7-90]
"Bharat only becomes worship worthy and worshipper, pure and impure. Remaining souls are in between…... they sing praises of the patit-pavan (purifier of the sinful). So they are actually sinful, is not it? Bharat was pure. Now he is impure." [Mu 8-9-78]
"Bharat was 100% pure. Now the same Bharat is 100% impure (corrupt), as it has become tottered (old) and degraded (tamopradhan). " [Mu 10-8-78]
"Bharat is the most beggar, Bharat is now a jungle of thorns. A bed of thorns is shown (in the picture of Ladder) showing Bharat lying begging on it(at about the same time, as the subtle destruction in 1976, or shooting for Final Destruction in 2036?) . So these people (the Governments-BKs) also keep begging everyone. "Bharat is in a very bad condition. Bharat was completely solvent(and becomes so again in 1976(see ladder point above) on gaining complete faith in ShivBaba). Now he is a beggar." [Mu 3-11-78]
"Bharat only becomes worship worthy and worshipper, pure and impure. Remaining souls are in between…... they sing praises of the patit-pavan (purifier of the sinful). So they are actually sinful, is not it? Bharat was pure. Now he is impure." [Mu 8-9-78]
"Bharat was No.1 pure among all. Now Bharat is the most sinful of all. So he has to make more efforts than anyone else(i don't think playing the part of Ravan is being implied here)." [Mu 17-6-72]
"Bharat was elevated (satopradhan), Then he had to take 84 births(and became tamopradhan by the end of the cycle - no mystery here!)" [Mu 19-2-73]
"Although this birth is good, the previous birth must have been like Ajamil (a devilish mythological character who spends the whole of his life in vicious acts, but obtains a ticket to heaven due to a single pious act). Father says I enter into a sinful body in the sinful world, who has become degraded after taking 84 births. Although now he has been born in a good house, because even then he has to become Baba's Chariot. [Mu 6-4-77]
"Main (language) is Hindi so I narrate Murli in Hindi. The soul whose body I have entered knows only Hindi(Baba Dixit's only language in his 84th birth, is Hindi - Brahma Baba did not speak Hindi, coming from the Sindh community)." [Mu 26-11-73]

Roy

[Roy]

Do you have any proof that Bharat(alias Ram's soul alias vd) was sevakram in the beginning of the Yagya....just give me the concrete proofs(not dubious Murli points) that all 3 souls who are regarded as future Trimurti by PBKs are the same souls who existed in 1937, when Shiva started the Yagya.

Dear brothers and sisters

Carrying on from my last post on this subject; i have a little more speculatory churning to share with you.... who said oh no, not more?!?! :D

Firstly a Murli point i have just come across....

“Gita Mata was created by ShivBaba, Krishna was born of her. Radhe and all others came along with them”. [Mu 14-12-93]

Now imo, this gives much credence to the teachings of AK, that Gita Mata(Adi-Brahma/Jagadamba), gave spiritual birth to Baba Dixit(Sangamyugi Krishna/Prajapita), the first Confluence Age leaf(this imo, being the shooting of Coporeal seed Father(Narayan), begetting first leaf of the Golden Age; child Krishna(Brahma Baba)); as a result of the incorporeal seed, Father Shiv, being planted in her. Radhe(Sister Vedanti), was born at this time also; by being witness to the scene that took place, as Dada Lekhraj's(Brahma Baba's) visions, were firstly narrated through Gita Mata(Jagadamba) to PrajapIta, and then clarified back, through Prajapita(Sangamyugi Krishna), by ShivBaba. So is this not the subtle, Trimurti Shivjayanti?

“The sermonizer of Godly knowledge, the bestower of ‘Sadgati’ to all, is only Trimurti Supreme Father Shiva. The birth of Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar is together. Not simply ‘Shivjayanti’, but it is ‘Trimurti Shivjayanti’ .”. [Mu 27-6-1975]
“Everything, whatever happened in the beginning, has to happen in the end.” [Mu 18.10.72]
“The children who left their mortal coils will surely return to the Brahmin clan.” [Mu 17-2-74]
"Those who come first only remain(in corporeal bodies/Sakar) till the end. It’s a wonderful drama, isn’t it?" [Mu 6.3.74]

So moving on a little, i took another look at the role of the murtis. I have speculated before, that the practical role of sustenance through Vishnu in the Confluence Age, will take place from 2018(date of practical Trimurti Shivjayanti, infront of the whole world), and carry on until 2036, when the Golden Age of the Broad Drama begins. This is a period of 18 years. Having a liking for symmetry, i then looked back to the 18 years prior to this i.e. 2000 to 2018. Interestingly, the shooting of the iron age finishes in 2000(i believe), so what is happening during this 18 years; is it not the practical part of destruction taking place, through Shankar(Baba Dixit)? So again, let's go back from 2000, 18 years to 1982. I believe the shooting of Ramraj(depicted in top half of the Ladder picture) occurs between 1977 and 1982. I think it was in 1982, that Baba Dixit(Ram/Shankar), moved back to Kampil, after the souls who were originally co-operative with him, became his opponents; which i understand, corresponds with the shooting, of the last three Kingdoms of Ram & Sita(the souls who become opponents, playing the last three roles of Ram) of the Silver Age, which are the ones that lead us finally, into the Copper Age(Ravan raj), of the Broad Drama. So what then, was occuring from 1982 to 1999. Was not Jagadamba Mama(Gita Mata/Adi-Brahma), present in Kampil during this period; perhaps playing the practical part of Brahma(establishment of Deity Religion; not Brahmin Religion, which was Brahma Baba's role), with Brahma Baba, perhaps, entering her at this time? Is it a coincidence, that this period ends(1999); when Jagadamaba, physically(not necessarily spiritually), leaves Baba's Yagya?

So to summarise... 1982 to 1999, practical part of Brahma(Adi Brahma/Gita Mata) in AK - 2000 to 2018, practical part of Shankar in AK; and finally, 2018 to 2036, practical part of Vishnu in AK; all this occuring in the 60 years of the Purushottam Sangamyug, that begins in 1976, and continues for 60 years, until 2036.

It takes a little time of 50-60 years to establish the complete Kingdom. [Mu 24-7-72]
This Auspicious (Purushottam) Confluence Age is a small age of 50 years.[Mu 2-3-74]

Roy

[ANU]

It takes a little time of 50-60 years to establish the complete Kingdom. [Mu 24-7-72]
This Auspicious (Purushottam) Confluence Age is a small age of 50 years.[Mu 2-3-74]

Exactly these dates were used by AIVV to prove that the full second machinery of creating deities and giving inheritance ends completely in 1997! Go and check in old AIVV publications. I myself was taught this when I came to AIVV.

So to summarise... 1982 to 1999, practical part of Brahma(Adi Brahma/Gita Mata) in AK - 2000 to 2018, practical part of Shankar in AK; and finally, 2018 to 2036, practical part of Vishnu in AK; all this occuring in the 60 years of the Purushottam Sangamyug, that begins in 1976, and continues for 60 years, until 2036.

Dear roy, AIVV teaches something different. The part of Brahma was supposed to end in 1969. The part of Shankar should end in 2004. And Vishnu part should start in 2008. Shooting period of Iron Age which you mentioned ends in 2004 according to AIVV.

[nivi]

Dear Roy Bhai,

You did a very good churning in you above post about the shooting period!!! :D


Nivi

[Roy]

Exactly these dates were used by AIVV to prove that the full second machinery of creating deities and giving inheritance ends completely in 1997! Go and check in old AIVV publications. I myself was taught this when I came to AIVV.

I know Anu Bhai, i have read this myself, but i cannot make out what this point actually means???

Dear roy, AIVV teaches something different. The part of Brahma was supposed to end in 1969. The part of Shankar should end in 2004. And Vishnu part should start in 2008. Shooting period of Iron Age which you mentioned ends in 2004 according to AIVV.

Well the establishment of the Brahmin religion by Brahma Baba took place by 1969, but what about the Deity religion?
Shankar(Baba Dixit) is said to be next to Shiva, but that means he is bapsaman; which imo he cannot yet be, as if this was the case, revelation would have, or would be occuring, in the here and now. I believe Shankar(Baba Dixit) will not become bapsaman until 2018; thus the role of Shankar continues until this time imo. The 2008 date imo, is still a incognito subtle role, only known to a very select few; whereas the practical roles i am talking about, occur over an 18 year period, and are practically recognised or experienced, to be taking place, by more than just a very select few; and for Vishnu, this commences in 2018, when Brahma so Vishnu occurs.

Here is an extract of a post i made back in April....

In the Murli dated 18.10.72, it was said: “Everything, whatever happened in the beginning, has to happen in the end.” It took 14 years(1936/7-1951) for the first murti(Brahma Baba in this instance), to be revealed in the practical role of narrating the 18 chapters of the Gita, from 1951-1969(18 years). I speculate, the same will be true for the Vishnu role... i.e. it takes from 2004 to 2018(14 years) at Revelation, for the Vishnu role to appear in the practical form on the world stage... “BapDada has also heard of the news, Congratulations to the zeal and enthusiasm of Africa(Sister Vedanti is on service here) ... They are first in starting it. Congratulations for that. Everyone has to do like that numberwise, but they have accepted the challenge first of all. It is good. The plan is also good. Making the hands to emerge from there and enabling them to do service there. This plan is very good because very few hands are received from other places. And when compared to them, those coming from the same place are experienced.(Nizar Bhai of Africa gave a resolution letter to BapDada - All of us resolve that we will give the message to everyone in Africa till Mama's Day in 2006 so that nobody's complaint should remain pending). It is good, very good. Similarly, give message to all those who are yet to receive it. This plan appeared to be best and the method was easy, wasn't it? One would get hands also and the service also increased. Now everyone has to do.” (When the local people do service, the response that is received is good). (Avyakt Vani -15.10.2004).

Further... “The birth of Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar is together. It is not just Shivjayanti (birthday of Shiv) but Trimurti Shivjayanti (birthday of Trinity Shiv).”(Murli dated 3.10.05) All 3 murtis, are revealed(practical birth) at the same time on the world stage, in 2018(6 souls, including Father Shiv and Badee Maa re-united as in the beginning of the Yagya... 3 corporeal(but each in an incorporeal stage of being) and three incoporeal(but with corporeal chariots)... Shiv in Ram(Shankar), Mama(Om Radhe) in Sita(Parvati-Saraswati-Choti Ma), playing Radhe, and Brahma Baba(DL) in Narayan(Ram) playing Krishna, and/or maybe in Jagadamba(Badee Maa-Adi Brahma). The Vishnu part will then continue for another 18 years(as with the Brahma Baba(DL) Gita role), up until destruction in 2036.

If we look more closely at the Sister Vedanti/Vishnu role, some interesting things emerge... Sister Vedanti(subtle/incognito Vishnu role, from 2004 to 2018) - Born 1946/7, the year of subtle Revelation of Brahma Baba(DL - 60 years old) – 30 years later in 1976/7, we have the subtle Revelation of Shankar(Prajapita Brahma(Virendra Dev Dixit) - 100 years old) - 30 Years later in 2006/7(see Murli point above re: Mama's Day), subtle Revelation of Vishnu(Sister Vedanti - 60 years old) - then a further 30 years on, at the age of 90, in 2036/7, we have the birth(via Sister Vedanti) or revelation of Radhe- Krishna, at the beginning of the Golden Age.

So imo, the Brahma Baba, practically realised role(establishment of Brahmin Religion), took place over 18 years, from 1951 to 1969; just as the other three roles, occuring in Purushottam Sangam Yug, do.

You did a very good churning in you above post about the shooting period!!!

Thank you Nivi Bhen! :D

Roy

[Roy]

So imo, the Brahma Baba, practically realised role(establishment of Brahmin Relgion), took place over 18 years, from 1951 to 1969; just as the other three roles, occuring in Purushottam Sangam yug, do.

Forgive me for further speculation on the symmetries that appear to be present in the Confluence Age, of which i believe there are many; and i hope to eventually put them all together, in one beautiful presentation, when i feel that they may actually have some crediblity! :D

So here's a couple more little snippets...

If you add up the 4 main practical roles of 18 years(I am such a maverick!) :D , plus the first 14 years of the subtle/incognito role of Brahma(1936/7 to 1951), and then the final 14 years of subtle/incognito Vishnu(2004 to 2018), this comes to 100 years. 18+18+18+18+14+14 = 100

Where as the subtle incognito roles of Brahma and Vishnu were 14 years in length; it appears this was 23 years for the Shankar role(1976/7 to 2000). Brahma Baba(DL)and Sister Vedanti, were 60 years old at the time of their subtle revelations, in 1946/7 and 2006/7, respectively; whilst Prajapita/Shankar was 100 years old, in 1976/7. So comparing the ages... 60/100 = 60%. If we do the same with the time of subtle/incognito roles, we get... 14/23 = 60% - interesting is it not! :D

I shall continue to look for these symmetries as they fascinate me; so if and when i find more, i shall present them on this forum, and would welcome others contributions too.

Roy

[Roy]

I shall continue to look for these symmetries as they fascinate me; so if and when i find more, i shall present them on this forum, and would welcome others contributions too.

I've been doing a little more thinking about the role of the murtis, and the time these occur in the Confluence Age, and this is what i came up with...

1936/7 - 14 years subtle/incognito role of Brahma - 1951 - 18 years practical role of Brahma - 1969 - 14 years subtle/incognito role of Shankar - 1982/3 - 18 years of practical role of Shankar - 2000 ---- 2004 - 14 years of subtle/incognito role of Vishnu - 2018 - 18 years of practical role of Vishnu - 2036

Along with this there is the subtle revelation of the murtis ...

Sister Vedanti(subtle/incognito Vishnu role, from 2004 to 2018) - Born 1946/7, the year of subtle Revelation of Brahma Baba(DL) - 60 years old – 30 years later in 1976/7, we have the subtle Revelation of Shankar(Prajapita Brahma(Virendra Dev Dixit) - 100 years old - 30 Years later in 2006/7 - subtle Revelation of Vishnu(Sister Vedanti) - 60 years old.

With these dates there is a gap between 2000 to 2004, which i believe ShivBaba has commented on. Arjun Bhai, perhaps you wouldn't mind commenting on this, as i cannot remember where i came across it, so will have to look it up at some point.

So finally; if we break the subtle role periods down further, we get the following symmetry...

Brahma - 1936/7 - 10 years to subtle revelation - 1946/7 - 4 years to practical role -1950/51
Shankar - 1969 - 7 years to subtle revelation - 1976/7 - 7 years to practical role - 1982/3
Vishnu - 2004 - 4 years to subtle revelation - 2006/7 - 10 years to practical role - 2018

You will notice the 10 & 4 years splits are mirror images, or reversed for the Brahma and Vishnu roles; and are evenly divided for the Shankar role. Interestingly 4+7+1O=21 2+1=3.

I believe that the dates 2000, 2004 and 2007 have been given significance at some point in AK; and these dates are significant in these murti roles.

I am not sure if my previous speculations have any value in light of this i.e. the Jagadamba(Brahma role in Purushottam Sangam Yug), but I am not ready to completely throw them out just yet! :D

Roy

[nivi]

Wow Roy Bhai! Some math genius you are..! :laugh: I will have to read you post above again a few times and do some churning to sink in..!

Nivi

[Roy]

Wow Roy Bhai! Some math genius you are..! I will have to read you post above again a few times and do some churning to sink in..!

Heh heh, that's a nice compliment Nivi Bhen, but I am certainly no math genius! :D But what i believe i have stumbled across; is that the Confluence Age, has a beautiful, and actually very simple, mathematical symmetry to it; that i am trying to piece together.

Roy

[new knowledge]

Sister Vedanti(subtle/incognito Vishnu role, from 2004 to 2018) - Born 1946/7

Dear brother,
1) What's the proof that Sister Vedanti was born in 1946/7? Or, is it that you just manipulatrd her birth-date to suit your idealogy?
2) Please explain in details how Vedanti is playing subtle/incognito Vishnu role from 2004. Or, is it that this is your cunning and updated strategy of declaring Vedanti's subtle Vishnu role with an intention to defend from those opponents who badly critised PBKs for not returning of Vedenti to Advanced Party in 2004 or 2007?

[Roy]

1) What's the proof that Sister Vedanti was born in 1946/7? Or, is it that you just manipulatrd her birth-date to suit your idealogy?

Dear New Knowledge

I am simply working with the knowledge available to me so far(or that i have remembered), to see what symmetries appear to be presenting themselves; i have not as yet claimed that any of these symmetries are totally accurate; i merely present them here for further investigation. My knowledge of AK is still very much in its infancy; but i do believe there is a a mathematical symmetry underpinning the Confluence Age, and will continue to look for this in the future. As for my proof of Sister Vedanti's date of birth, this is taken from the teachings of AK, which i believe are backed up by the SM.

Soul is recalled (into some body) to explain that you used to come (here in your previous birth). You had been explained so much to remember Father, and to become pure. But you never listened. Now you have lost your post. Those who expired earlier (might have taken rebirth and) have grown up now and somebody must have attained the age of 20 and some 25. They may receive this knowledge (in their present birth also). (narrated through Dada Lekhraj in 1967) [Mu 17.2.75]
"Very nice children, who used to play very nice roles for 5-10 years, get defeated." [Mu 8.7.78]
“The children who left their mortal coils will surely return to the Brahmin clan.” [Mu 17-2-74]

I believe in the first Murli point above, originally narrated in 1967; that ShivBaba is talking about Sister Vedanti, who was twenty at the time, and Baba Dixit, who was 25.

2) Please explain in details how Vedanti is playing subtle/incognito Vishnu role from 2004. Or, is it that this is your cunning and updated strategy of declaring Vedanti's subtle Vishnu role with an intention to defend from those opponents who badly critised PBKs for not returning of Vedenti to Advanced Party in 2004 or 2007?

In the Murli dated 18.10.72, it was said: “Everything, whatever happened in the beginning, has to happen in the end.” It took 14 years(1936/7-1951) for the first murti(Brahma Baba in this instance), to be revealed in the practical role of narrating the 18 chapters of the Gita, from 1951-1969(18 years). I speculate, the same will be true for the Vishnu role... i.e. it takes from 2004 to 2018(14 years) at Revelation, for the Vishnu role to appear in the practical form on the world stage... “BapDada has also heard of the news, Congratulations to the zeal and enthusiasm of Africa(Sister Vedanti is on service here) ... They are first in starting it. Congratulations for that. Everyone has to do like that numberwise, but they have accepted the challenge first of all. It is good. The plan is also good. Making the hands to emerge from there and enabling them to do service there. This plan is very good because very few hands are received from other places. And when compared to them, those coming from the same place are experienced.(Nizar Bhai of Africa gave a resolution letter to BapDada - All of us resolve that we will give the message to everyone in Africa till Mama's Day in 2006 so that nobody's complaint should remain pending). It is good, very good. Similarly, give message to all those who are yet to receive it. This plan appeared to be best and the method was easy, wasn't it? One would get hands also and the service also increased. Now everyone has to do.” (When the local people do service, the response that is received is good). (Avyakt Vani -15.10.2004).

It is taught in AK, that Sister Vedanti is playing the incognito role of Vishnu; therefore i have looked for hints of this in the Murli to back this up. This, plus the example of the Brahma role, in terms of the time periods for each phase of the role itself, i believe also give an indication, as to how the other murti parts will play out. I personally do not know exactly when Sister Vedanti will come over to the Advanced Party; but i think it may be quite close to the end(revelation), in 2018.

Roy

[arjun]

1) What's the proof that Sister Vedanti was born in 1946/7?Or, is it that you just manipulatrd her birth-date to suit your idealogy?

I think you should first try to find out yourself before trying to accuse someone. The official emailid of Nairobi BK Center where BK Vedanti lives is [email protected] and their address is:
Brahma Kumaris Raja Yoga Centre
Global Museum, Maua Close,
Westlands, PO Box 123 00606
Nairobi
Their phone numbers are:
T 254- 20- 3743572
T 254- 20- 3741239
T 254- 20- 3741849
T 254- 20- 3745966
M 254- 722 202491
F 254- 20- 3743885

I hope you will be able to find out her age with the help of above information.
OGS,
Arjun

[nivi]

It is taught in AK, that Sister Vedanti is playing the incognito role of Vishnu; therefore i have looked for hints of this in the Murli to back this up. This, plus the example of the Brahma role, in terms of the time periods for each phase of the role itself, i believe also give an indication, as to how the other murti parts will play out. I personally do not know exactly when Sister Vedanti will come over to the Advanced Party; but i think it may be quite close to the end(revelation), in 2018.

Roy

My understanding is Bk Sister Vedanti represents the head of the Vijay Mala( Rosary of Queens) and will join Advance Party in the very end..Historically, queens had been known to follow very high level of purity( a complete opposite of Kings!). Since they have purity of a lifetime of many, many births they don't need much help with purification like we Rudra Mala souls ( Rosary of Kings) i.e. direct children of Shiv Baba. Moreover, Vijay Mala souls are originally of Chandra_vanshi/ Moon dynasty (followers of deity soul Brahma)..Brahma's Vani (Avyakt Vani) through Gulzar Dadi teaches dharna points to become deities. We rudra mala souls on the other hand, give more importance to Shiv Baba's knowledge and become Kings..Since we learn all the secrets of Raja Yoga we become kings for many lifetimes.. Throughout history kings have also been known to be quite viceful..Kept multiple queens; fought so many wars etc.. So, once again we recognize direct form of God and learn Raja Yoga, and also the process of purification begins all over again..with direct Yoga we burn our sins of many lifetimes.. A king is a ruler, but Queens (although a high status) are still considered subjects in kings royal court. The shooting of all this can been seen right now..

Nivi



Nivi