What is Perfection?

[paulkershaw]

I cannot seem to trace if this question has been posed in the forum so I am bringing it up for discussion. It irritates me somewhat when I continuously read the BK type speak "perfection" so often in postings and I am sure that so many are simply trying to attain someone else's ideal, which keeps changing as do the Maryadas and Murlis.

"What exactly is this state of "Perfection" that is trying to be attained within the BK/PBK setup? To my perceptions, Perfection is the state of Being one achieves and experiences once one has aligned with the truth of the moment. Is perfection and self-mastery the same thing or does one have to attain a stage of self-mastery before perfection can be achieved. Exactly how do we measure perfection? For example let us presume that we know someone who says there relationship is perfect but we know that that particular couple really went through a lot of problems within thier relationship to be able to say that its now perfect. Does perfection mean that one needs to look beyond the 'imperfection' of things which then creates a state of perfection?

And if we state that True perfection realises once we reach God consciousness, is that it? Is there a state of being beyond God-consciousness that is even 'more' perfect? We cannot even become God Conscious unless we know God and how do we get to know God when we're being taught all sorts of 'truths' about him/her? Surely the most perfect stage is when we are in absolute alignment with the Self, resonating to Higher Consciousness 100% of the time? And then we must also ask exactly "what is Higher Consciousness" too?

[mbbhat]

Dear Soul,

Perfection is the feeling of 100% satisfaction. It is acceptance of truth to 100%.

It is feeling of a family. In a family, one may be a doctor earning millions. His brother may be a normal farmer and may not earn much. Still there is no ego clash. Even though there is so gap between the two, there is no problem in communication. Each one is satisfied with other. So realization of true family - that is - we all are souls, and not the body. We are children of one Father who is God. This is self-realization, God-realization and World realization, the truth, the perfection. Do you need more details?

[yogi108]

Bhat,

Paulkershaw says that he is fed up BK Speak and you start with saying Dear Soul ... I remember one senior saying that most BKs, for say the rest of their life, lead someone else's life ... how true.

Perfection to me is completeness in all respects of life. We interact with so many people within the family and outside the family. For me perfection is like being able to stand up and say, "I don't have a problem with anyone, anything nor anyone else has a problem with me".

Now this is something tough to achieve. We all in the BK world say Brahmababa has achieved perfection. Its not that I don't have belief but then letting go of his son Narayan Dada from the Yagya is a failure and the BKs might argue that he was not attached to his own son. Many of the sisters now very senior had left their small children to join the Yagya. Now is this fair??? Might not be

So Paulkershaw is right. Perfection cannot be personalised to say that, "as far as I am concerned I am perfect".

I guess there is another definition again in the BK world as to when you finish all karmic accounts with other souls and Matter, then you attain perfection ... I do not know what that monkey is!!!

Yogi

[fluffy bunny]

It irritates me somewhat when I continuously read the BK type speak "perfection" ...

Its another Indian hang up like "100% Pure", everything has to be 100% Pak or Pure. Neither "Pure" nor "Perfection" means what the dictionary says they do. Its another hyperbole exaggerations like "Global", "World", "Unlimited" ... and its nonsense. No one really knows what they mean and they have as fixed a value as the first bid bartering in a bazaar.

Prakashmani is being sold as "perfected". Gulzar and Janki are "nearly" perfect ... as if it was 'infinite less one'. Its just advertising. I am sure that those hamsters on their exercise wheels are running round them because they believe that if they reach the top they will be perfect. Click on the link for a perfect example of this, here. The hamster is a BK aspiring for perfection and then exiting the BKWSU. They only bit missing is that hamsters do not carry wallets to empty on the way.

And, yes, I used to have exactly the virus when I was in the BKWSU. I was ridiculous. I was going to become "completely perfect." Now I realise that just ordinary and not causing needless hurt is good ... and difficult .. enough.

[joel]

In the Hindu tradition, I think people generally accept the idea of becoming pure or perfect as a worthwhile spiritual goal, much in the way that some others in a more western tradition might discuss becoming a self-realized person. Those who consider themselves experts in the subject of spirituality believe the qualities of purity, perfection to be real and tangible if not actually measurable in an objective way at present. As examples, they cite the great sages, and among the BKs, the Dadis.

In my experience, it is not easy to distinguish the charisma that comes with these putative qualities to the garden-variety charisma (or charisma plus money plus image-management) that enables a person to gather hundreds or thousands of followers.

According to the BKs, celibacy is only the first and grossest step to purity. To follow BK lifestyle rules is no guarantee of becoming pure. On the other hand, I meet many people who don't follow these rules, who are charismatic and seem self-realized, whether working as a laborer, tour guide or other low-status profession.

I wish the BK path were a foolproof and easy path. In my opinion, it is not easy, not guaranteed, not natural, and not overwhelmingly successful compared with other paths. Perhaps it is more easily accepted by those open to Hindu concepts of purity and perfection.

[mbbhat]

Paulkershaw says that he is fed up BK Speak and you start with saying Dear Soul ... I remember one senior saying that most BKs, for say the rest of their life, lead someone else's life ... how true.

Dear Yogi 108,

If someone is fed up, should I change my language? There are many people here. I have given my email ID in my blog. If majority are unhappy with this language, then only I should think stopping the word 'soul'. Am I right?

[paulkershaw]

Now I am even more perfectly fed-up.

Paul's 'Take A Deep Breath Aum Zen Quote for Thursday':

A carrot carries the potential to be juiced but there's still residue remaining which needs to be thrown away. Once one drinks the carrot juice one will only realise the value of the carrot by the sweet or bitter taste but by then once cannot reconstitute the carrot due to the fact that the residue is now worthless. The part does not make the whole, even if the juice tastes sweet. An at any rate you've got to enjoy the taste of carrot juice in order to even want to make the effort to juice the carrot in the first place.

[tom]

If someone is fed up, should I change my language? There are many people here. I have given my email ID in my blog. If majority are unhappy with this language, then only I should think stopping the word 'soul'. Am I right?

You are wrong. I must tell you that you are the most boring, irritating and arrogant and lustful teacher I have ever met in decades in my BK life, and also in lokik life. To read you, one needs to have the patience of a Saint and gets nothing but anger.

Don't you know that the first and most important condition to teach someone something is "to feel the pulse" and "to be sweet". You don't have any idea of this. You don't have any yukti but only enormous ego, greed, and arrogance (the biggest vices) that you know the best and everybody should listen to you to learn from you.

I thought in the first days honestly as you appeared in this forum that you could be a computer program, not a human being, because you have been ignoring all of us - you still do so- our questions, our complaints from your posts, our past posts, so that you could understand our background. Most of us are coming here after being decades long as surrendered BKs, learned Gyan from experienced Seniors, listened everyday to the Murli in the center, followed the Maryadas properly and did karma Yoga and service with our bones and teaching Gyan with yukti.

You are not to be considered to be a BK. You are not going to the Center. You don't know that you should be "like milk and sugar" with other BKs and obey the intructions of your center in charge, who is according to the Murlis "God's instrument". You are not following the Maryadas properly. You are not getting up for Amrit Vela (this means according to the Murlis you cannot have the right touch from Baba and according to the Seniors you can not go to the Golden Age). You argue with your center in charge. You are not listening to your Seniors directions. You say that you take food from outside. And you dare shameless to invite a member of this forum to challenge your self control with a horrible disgusting spectacle, as you said you stay nude and control your thoughts etc etc. Don't you know that "celibacy is not purity".

You seem to be more likely trying to become a "fakir" than an effort making BK. See what Wikipedia says :

Many stereotypes of the great fakir exist, among the more extreme being the picture of a near-naked man effortlessly walking barefoot on burning coals, sitting or sleeping on a bed of nails, levitating during bouts of meditation, or "living on air" (refusing all food). It is also used, usually sarcastically, for a common street beggar who chants holy names, scriptures or verses without ostensibly having any spiritual advancement.

Without taking permission from your Seniors, you think from your own manmat you can do BK service in a fair. And you provoke the BKs to attack you and to stop you through security forces. As I have seen here how you try to provoke all of us and the Admin with your arrogant and selfish way by saying, "You can stop me".

I must say, although I am against all violence, I consider now yourself to be responsible to let the BKs stop you by force because you don't listen to others words and you don't read what others write. So you cause disservice - instead of service as you believe - by provoking others and making them angry.

You don't know that the first and most important condition to teach something is "to feel the pulse". The second
condition to teach something is that you should have something to give. Just narrating from Murlis by heart without having inculcated them and without "spinning the discus of self realization" you just achieve by the others irritation and feeling of fed up and rejection of yours.

Your goals of having a TV station, newspaper, writing books etc needs next to narrating from the Murlis, a lokik cultural and educational background, which is totally lacking in you. And you think with incredible arrogance that you only need the trustees. Instead of investing your time and money in your education to reach your goal, you are spending your time and our time by preaching here pages and pages to satisfy your greed, because here all members are very kind and the Admins are very patient.

I understand from all of your posts which I read with my best patience, that you are trying to establish a splitter group under your leadership as a "fakir" and looking for followers here. Go ahead.

[paulkershaw]

Interesting reaction from some as to the question posed about perfection. Would anyone agree that out of chaos and anger, perfection rises whole and complete? And if fact its perfections need to rise to the surface and be seen that causes complete chaos and anger eruption within us?

To be able to see someone as perfect at this very moment takes immense vision and spiritual practice of patience and tolerance. But think about it - thats all we have, this very moment in time, and its pointless trying to become something in the future, when that future is changing constantly. Perfection has to exist right now, not in some long worked toward goal which will never arise. To be able to see the perfection of each moment though is not easy.

See I am perfect, thanks everyone! :D Sh oo t - glad I know that now. Today's work pressure had almost got the better of me.

[mbbhat]

Dear Souls,

Perfection means-

1) Knowing that there is really one ALWAYS Perfect soul in this drama who never becomes impure (body-conscious) who is God.
2) Knowing that every soul in this drama is/would be perfect when it stays in Parmadham.
3) There is really a perfect world free from defect (vices-lust, anger, etc)- heaven.
4) Knowing that all souls are perfect (eternal) and their part is also perfect(eternal).
5) Knowing that the world drama repeats perfectly (exactly) every 5000 years,
6) Having no defect (vices)
7) Feeling no defect (mistake) in others as I also become defective at the end of every Kalpa (kaliyuga= Iron Aged world).
8) Considering I am the most defective soul since it is me who gets affected by vices maximum because it is me who takes maximum number of births.
9) Considering myself to be the most responsible for the defect since it is me who begins sin in the Copper Age. It is also true that it is me who makes the world defective by (after) enjoying it for 2,500 years. So when the other souls come, it is already hell. So I should feel pity on other souls.
10) Capacity to treat every soul perfectly(without any bias, in the same way), irrespective of its cast, creed, religion, nation, etc.
11) Ability to treat the most sinner in this world like a good doctor treats a patient.
12) God is perfect. So he has the capacity to love the most defected (most impure Iron Aged world).
13) Capacity to convert any defect (negative circumstance) into perfect (positive ). This is the meaning what Baba says- Just by having love or faith in Baba is not enough. Have faith in baba, self, drama and the companions.
14) Not being influenced from others and trying not to influence others; e.g. like a sun. Just radiate natural qualities.
15) It is like staying where (having constant faith) you are, but still progressing with highest speed (maximum effort= practice). That is what Baba says, remember only ME!
16) Knowing everything (knowledgeful) and knowing nothing (having no ego)
17) God is the first and always perfect soul. Those who get the above conscious early and constantly become the next perfect souls numberwise till the TOO LATE BOARD is put.

[mbbhat]

Dear Tom Soul,

In fact, I have no aim in my life. All is a game to me. Because Drama itself is a game. When somebody asked me, I have to respond. I again repeat that I wanted to give Knowledge very slowly. But when questions were put to me, and instant answers were expected, this happens. If you expect your car driver to drive too fast, this happens. I will consider your showerings as garlands, sideseens in my journey, exams, or nothing. ShivBaba says, you were monkey, dull head, stone-intellect, even worse words. But no BK gets upset. Similarly, if you take in neutral way, you should not get upset. If you get upset means you are weak!

Something more. I travel daily 4 hours (up and down) from my place to the working place from past three years. There is work of 8 hours (but now, I am on tour). Hence I do not sit in Amrit Vela and do Yoga. That's all. If I start at 6 AM, I will reach at 7 PM. Then I write something. But I have aim to do Yoga in amrut vela. What I wish is it should happen naturally, without force. Thank You for your injection. This may help me doing Amrit Vela faster.

The argument done with a Bk sister was 10 years before. Not yesterday or today. I take outside food sometimes only, that too usually prepared by machines and not man-made. A very few times, when I am invited for some functions, I take outside food. That's all. I am not greed of it or habituated. My dear Mr. Tom, I go for jogging in the morning between 3 AM and 5 AM. During that time, I remember Baba as much as possible. What I meant was at present, I do not sit and do Yoga because of lack of time.

Even recently, BK sisters have invited the mbbhat (worst soul perhaps in your dictionary) to give speech - "message of Shivaratri". mbbhat has give speech for three years consecutively. Poor mbbhat! Demerits of mbbhat soul is it has been called by only two zones for doing service and has given speech just in around 20 places in one year! Actually, I did not want to speak about myself first. But things forced me. I am a person who does not need to hide anything personally. When I speak on any topic, I try to expalin it fully, not a corner.

Dear Tom, I saw your posting after posting my previous post.

I am not your friend nor your enemy. My principle is-

• Do not hate anybody.
  Have no extra love with anybody.
  Have unlimited love with God.
  Your hatredness will turn into love one day. Because you are lovely child of Baba and so am I.

* Just see what I have written there. I have no aim and then I have aim. What is it?
* Suppose say, you have done graduate and got a job. You are satisfied. Hence it is like your aims are fulfilled. After that you have no aim.
* But next, you can do post graduate, Phd (Doctorate). Even if you do not do that, you are not depressed. Because you already have a job. So there is no aim (thirst of stress, pain) but there is aim (vision). Similarly, I have the required level of satisfaction (graduation) in my life. But there are higher levels. All the services are like sidescenes for me. For me, you are also OK; Anybody is OK; Because I am a BK! A real Bk is one who is OK with anything. An ocean cannot catch fire. Similarly your words cannot make me anger. If you feel angry, it is because we imagine somebody just by what he has written.

I actually wanted to feel the pulse and speak sweetly. But if one after the other questions come to me, then I am forced to speak! For example, in the next post, perhaps. It is time today.

Good luck

[fluffy bunny]

It irritates me somewhat when I continuously read the BK type speak "perfection" so often in postings and I am sure that so many are simply trying to attain someone else's ideal, which keeps changing as do the Maryadas and Murlis.

Repetitions of the same information do not create understanding, but merely listener acceptance ...

Mbbhat

if you do wish to respond to everything posted in response to your verbiage, you might ask yourself what needs to be said 'on forum' and what is best to be kept 'off forum' in private messages. Its probably best to read the first post and title and respond to that.

You don't seem to get that most readers of this forum actually know all the "official answers" but thank you for being the perfect BK online ... even if you don't follow the Maryadas.

Dare I say it ... Baba says in the Murlis, "everyone must be satisfied with you" and "be merciful on others" ... keep it short. You would appear far from being satisfactory or perfect and but not following Maryadas you are a BK in name alone. There is probably a word or description for that in the Murli. I cant be bothered looking but perhaps you could be a good soul and dig it out for us?

[paulkershaw]

Dear Souls, Perfection means ... 17) God is the first and always perfect soul. Those who get the above conscious early and constantly become the next perfect souls numberwise till the TOO LATE BOARD is put.

That's my point mbbhat! Please describe just WHO it is that tells you that GOD is the first and most perfect soul?

Do you not think that we humans put too much pressure on this Being that we call "god" by trying to see him/her as 'perfect'? I could ask you a question which you may want to ask someone: "What if God was not the first and most perfect soul but in order for us to believe in everything else being taught we are taught that he/she is?" Or are you not perhaps able to see beyond the teachings which you so firmly and with great dedication embody as being perfect and truthful?

What if, let us say, God the Soul as you put it - is also constantly going through changes and those changes then 'force' humanity to experience change and the difference between our change and 'God's" transformation is what we see in the world as 'chaos and turmoil" (and not karma)?

We already know from Murli teachings that at a specific time in a cyclical period of time, that something within God changes and brings him into the cycle of experience. Without all the BK buzzwords coming into play, would you agree that this analogy is correct? If so, it means that God is also subject to change, even if it is only for a specific period of time. So this means that God is not perfect but subject to and able to bring about a state of inner transformation which then affects our world as does any inner change we make as indivuals.

Do you see the point I am raising here? It's an intellectual as well as a logical approach that I am asking about? Or is it easier to simply 'believe' with all one's heart that God is perfect because a Murli or 'scripture' says so.

[pilatus]

Thanks Paul for starting this topic and please forgive me if I veer slightly off topic, but I too noticed,

17) God is the first and always perfect soul.

This seems to me to get to the essence of how some of us perceive/experience God. It's what might be termed the personal(ised)/anthropomorphic version of God, as opposed to the incorporeal/unknowable/completely detached version. In BK terms, it's the difference between the "Baba says" and "Ocean of Peace/Love/Happiness ..." versions.

I've just finished reading a very interesting book called "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong which traces the history of Western, monotheistic God, mainly through the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths. These two extreme versions of God have ebbed and flowed throughout history and between cultures and faiths. I don't know that this gets us any nearer answering your question but it does challenge the key BK/mbbhat view of God as "simply" a super soul ...

Very best wishes,

[paulkershaw]

Thanx Pilatus, that's my point really. If God is so perfect, he sure ain't going to be pulled into this world's drama, not for love, but maybe money by the sound of it ...

Perfection exists within the now ... and including the potential that tomorrow can bring.

So that brings me to another point for another day, if this is accepted as being true - therefore God IS most certainly omnipresent, but let's not overload the system too much today OK? Some people need rest. LOL :- it also answers another thread: "Where has Shiv Baba gone to?" :D "Brilliant, my dear Watson", indeed.