Does the soul exists ? What is it REALLY ?

[fluffy bunny]

I am sorry to head a little off topic here ... I have a question in my mind about the experiences we have, mostly in the beginning. No argument they are impressive in comparison to other spiritual or New Age paths. I just wonder why they are not reliably achievable or universal?

As with the question, "what is accurate Yoga?" and the consideration of how can we tell if folk are actually having "Yoga", how can we tell if we or others are experiencing "the soul" or just having "a" psychically induced experience, e.g. something on the level of chakras.

Why cant we replicate those peak experiences? We are told that they are "given" to us. OK, so we are given something but what? The PBKs appear to call them "visions" rather than experiences but appear not to be "experiencing" anything at all.

One common experience BKs relate is a pressure on the forehead between the eyes, I still get/feel this. What is that? A chakra opened, a chord etc? By experience was that the most they could offer was a nervous laugh, a loving smile and tell you to remember Baba more ...

The BKs do provide incredible guidance to many but there are also many that they do not seem able to help. Possibly this is because of lack of experience within the BK organisation.

You raise a fair question in my mind, does the BKWSU provide a manual ... a flowchart even ... of what to do and where to go for help and assistance.

I fear part of the danger is the massive ego of being a god inspired angel of mercy with the cure all of all ails ... got a problem? "Do More Yoga" Got another problem? "Remember Baba!"

One of my genuine concerns is that individuals without any training, accountability or responsibility are empowered to dabble with others minds, lives and families ... situations where the BKWSU, or individual BK, often has a vested interest. For example, we had a case last year where the BKWSU was providing letters of support for a women going through a divorce inspired by her engagement with Gyan. Even though she had broken the Maryadas, been adulterous within her own marriage, she was at the same time providing the BKWSU with donations.

Needless to say she was receiving all sort of half-baked "guidance" from "god inspired angels" who probably did not know the half of it. This is where a trained professional might be a little bit more cautious and practise duty of care.

We take about psychiatry as a "happy pill" (well, psychiatry IS meant to be chemical treatment for serious ill ... you probably mean psycho-therapy) but at the very least, therapists and counsellors have professional guidance, a professional body and pay professional indemnity insurance for when they screw up.

What happens when the BKWSU, or a BK teacher screws up ... oh, that is YOUR karma and the public face must be protected first and foremost. And, yet, center-in-charges and individuals BKs are encouraged to dabble at even deeper levels than psycho-therapists ... even into areas of psychic phenomenon of which the organization is in total denial of even existing.

[john morgan]

The framework I use is thought - attitude - action. Thoughts create attitudes which give birth to action and experience. Everyone is doing this continually. Yogis become deeply aware of this process. How long does it take? In the body conscious person, quite a long time; in the soul conscious person, a shorter time. In the Dadis and Didis, the time is much shorter. It seems that the positive thinking course was written in an attempt to explain this.

During the transition from body-consciousness to soul-consciousness, a very deep change takes place. The person is making conscious what was previously unconscious. The whole process of their creation is becoming clear. Old karma is being burnt and the individual discovers that they are far more marvelous a being that they ever suspected. Various, shall we say, mental wrinkles appear depending on the individual and they must dealt with mainly by that individual. A very deep grounding in thought - attitude - action (TAA) is necessary for this. The responsible individual accepts guidance, it is an unfair advantage but seen by some as control. The guidance given by the BKs is exceptional, many souls have achieved angelic consciousness by following this guidance.

Is one thing to say this doesn't work, its quite another to see the lesson as part of drama, as beneficial then to take ones time and make everything clear. The choice is yours.

Each individual is responsible for their own thoughts attitudes and actions (TAA). When I am blaming someone else, my TAA are being influenced. Also when I find fault with others, something similar is happening. The inspiration given each day by the BKs is also an influence. As I learn to control my TAA, I become clearer about what I am doing and deliberately learn to choose the influences in my life. Everything is right about the way Raja Yoga is taught, all the lessons are there. Everything is aimed at improvement in the individual.

For example, the lesson of ploughing the field for virtue growing in me by learning to discern virtues in others. Where we put our focus is our choice and our future is being created accordingly. It doesn't matter what anyone else does, it is what I do that is important. What influences do I create? Is my influence blaming others or seeking out negativity? Or is my creation far far away from such things - in Baba's love.

What do I home in on mentally? Why let my reaction to anyone else spoil my future? The good news? Everything can be changed and various skillful means are given each day. The study is the transformation of our old sanskaras and the creation of a superb life as part of the most talented family in the world.

Help is given but often the individual doesn't recognise it and complains and/or leaves; because of his/her current state, he cannot see that what is being offered does work. This forum can catch those people and help to make things clearer for them. It can show them that others have difficulties too. It can constructively discuss the BK organisation and make good suggestions. People can support one another, discuss personal difficulties etc.

Perhaps a period of self-examination would be good for this forum - what are we doing and why are we doing it? A good constructive focus that anyone would be proud of would then be much more likely. Perhaps a declaration of principles that should be followed whenever anyone makes a post?

I think Bansy picked up a little on my week old thought that it is nearly time for me to leave here. There is a little project waiting for me that will take at least a couple of months. I'd like to thank you all for being here. Please don't misunderstand my tough talk, the questions and points mooted today are merely reflections of my waking up process; I hope you find them as useful as many discussions I have found on this forum have been for me.

Nanoo Nanoo

[bansy]

I think Bansy picked up a little on my week old thought that it is nearly time for me to leave here.

Hope the wrong thought is not misinterpreted. What I propose for many is that for BK issues and to open them up here is a great thing to do. About the other forums I mentioned, they are about spiritual growth both in and out of the BK, and so there is a lot of good stuff there. There is no heavy BK lingo (in so far as Murlis and Gyan is concerned) and so folks write exactly how they feel in their best language without being constrained to conform to BK terminology. At times it is quite poetic.

For me, both this forum and the other forums are growing me spiritually, because on the one hand I can identify with the commonality of experience in this forum, whereas in the other forums I can identify and appreciate the furthering growth experience from (as I call them "matured") ex-BKs who have been through it all over the years, seen much and are moving foward in their different spheres, in a practical sense applicable to the cultures they are living.

The most difficult aspect of spiritual learning (for me) is the ability to give. It is all so easy to take. For some reason, I feel forums and discussion on the net have a huge ability to give because it goes to all four corners and crosses cultures and boundaries. However it is important also to have the social and possible economic and political stability in the living environments around you as support, but what is greater than free expression to be given to all. It is easy to help and praise (or caution) a BK, easy to help out someone you know at work or at home, it is much harder to do the same outside.

A credit to the forum owners.

[bkti-pit]

I agree with pretty much everything you say here ex-1.

It seems to me that many BKs feed their ego by giving "guidance". Just like kids playing doctor and nurse, many BKs seem to like playing psychologist. And I am not talking only about junior BKs. It is not that everything they say is wrong but you are absolutely right that there is no training and no provisions to fix the mess they create in people's lives, which is neither right nor divine and clearly not Shrimat in my book.

As far as what are we experiencing, where is it coming from and why those experiences are not universal, meaning some seem to have blissful experiences and some seem not to experience anything at all, I do not really know.

I think that many things can happen when we are meditating and it may not always be coming from God nor from our true or higher self. There are all kinds of influences out there and also within ourselves and I have always been very cautious about my own experiences and never assumed that it was all divine and right.

My belief is that if I am honest, and I am only talking for myself here, if I am honest and I really want the truth, if this is really my aim and what I want to be, I will eventually discern what is real and what is not, what is truly coming from a place of goodness and what is an evil influence and then the choice is mine.

I have said before, somewhere else on this forum, that for me accurate Yoga is that one which will translate into positive transformation: more peace, more love, more benevolence, more respect and self-respect, more humility, more acceptance, more understanding...

It doesn't matter to me what you experience or not, how you experience it, whether you have visions or not. In my eyes it could all be valid. However, if after 20, 40 or 60 years of Raja Yoga someone still stinks with arrogance, selfishness and bossiness, I wonder what kind of Yoga they were having and I question how much they have really conquered sex lust.

It is alright for anyone not to be perfect even after a lifetime of Yoga, but it seems to me that if there is anything valid in that Yoga, one should at least have imbibed some basic humility and honesty and be able to acknowledge mistakes and be willing to make amends.

[sparkal]

Perhaps what is being acknowledged here in these posts, to some degree, is that it is not easy to change the self. It is the most diffiCULT thing we can ever under take even. Indeed, each of us could be seen as an individual cult.

In that case, there needs to be patience shown to those who don't change quite so easily. Change may be more easy to implement when it comes from the foundation of the said "spiritual experiences". It may be futile and even negative to deny them. If some don't have experiences, I cannot imagine what drives them on, keeps them going. Knowledge and understanding? Perhaps they don't need these experiences. Or perhaps they have not earned them and are earning them now when, others having earned them, as has been said, getting the fruits of their past efforts.

What about when it runs out and we are left to make effort on our own? Would it be fair to say that things then become very real.

First, I would have to know more about that which may oppose us before coming to conclusions. Is all that heavy negative stuff coming from me? Not always perhaps, but we are forbidden to point at others and so we may blame the self. We are very gentle beings and need to be careful with self.

It seems that there may be less emphasis on the experience and more on converting. Converting others so that they may experience?

[alladin]

Having always been very introspective since childhood, I found no difficulty in accepting that I am the soul, the actively thinking, subtle being residing in this body. This is the way I always perceived myself and, along with the basic information, the drishti of the sweet, special, lovely and God-loving sister who gave me the course, definitely opened that particular chakra (Ajna, correct?) ... as if the curtain was parted or a beam of light cut through the fog.

If the word "sin" were replaced by "negative energy" it would be far more useful in many situations.

I totally agree. A lot of useless and negative meanings are attached to the word "sin". When we look at devilish habits and personality traits as something "foreign", that does not belong to the original self, us, an intrusion; something that is damaging and unwanted and that locks us up in the cottage of sorrow. We are prone and willing to push back the invader. Whereas, sin only leads to "guilt", sense of helplessness, weakness and depression.

There are all kinds of influences out there and also within ourselves and I have always been very cautious about my own experiences and never assumed that it was all divine and right. However, if after 20, 40 or 60 years of Raja Yoga someone still stinks with arrogance, selfishness and bossiness, I wonder what kind of Yoga they were having and I question how much they have really conquered sex lust. There is no training and no provisions to fix the mess they create in people's lives, which is neither right nor divine and clearly not Shrimat in my book.

The emergency exit is provided by the slogans we all know by heart such as, "Baba will fix it". So, if some demential parmat is imposed on student as Shrimat and creates loss, "Baba is responsible" and "there's always benefit in Drama", etc ...

The stench you are talking about, is what creates doubts in lots of BK students. "After so many years in Gyan, how can that sister be so arrogant and mean? How come that teachers who are following literally and externally all the rules do not transform? Whom are they having Yoga with at 3-4 am? Shouldn't they be getting power from the Almighty? So, maybe there's no Almighty behind it all, and behind that BB picture or Shiv Baba's light!! Maybe the devil is behind it instead! They are worse than lokiks ... and, even more touchy question? Why do SS keep such mediocre and even wicked souls in charge of the centers".

Because really, look at what is upposed to be the showcase: actions speak louder than words!

It is alright for anyone not to be perfect even after a lifetime of Yoga, but it seems to me that if there is anything valid in that Yoga, one should at least have imbibed some basic humility and honesty and be able to acknowledge mistakes and be willing to make amends.

But the BK system is designed to pump some people's egos up and to destroy self esteem in others. Total manipulation.

Is all that heavy negative stuff coming from me? Not always perhaps, but we are forbidden to point at others and so we may blame the self. We are very gentle beings and need to be careful with self. It seems that there may be less emphasis on the experience and more on converting. Converting others so that they may experience

No, just to create numbers.

Those who are living exhamples of good dharna, soul consciousness and proximity to God, do not chase after customers and they inspire people just with their presence and vibes. Salesmen and missionaries have hidden agendas, get temporary success and choose that profession precisely because they lack soul conscious or meditation "experiences", so they have no better occupation than going around chasing for customers. Sanskar of extrovertedness. And because of lack of humility, a back seat position or incognito role, would make them feel restless and uneasy, like sitting on burning charcoals.

This is where a trained professional might be a little bit more cautious and practise duty of care ... therapists and counsellors have professional guidance, a professional body and pay professional indemnity insurance for when they screw up. What happens when the BKWSU, or a BK teacher screws up ... oh, that is YOUR karma and the public face must be protected first and foremost. And, yet, center-in-charges and individuals BKs are encouraged to dabble at even deeper levels than psycho-therapists ... even into areas of psychic phenomenon of which the organization is in total denial of even existing.

True. What more to say? Do you all remember the "Sorcerer's Apprentice"?. Creating havoc and covering it up, like trying to sweep or mop up the water that's flooding the room. This is what we are watching. Unfortunately it is not a cartoon, it's about people's lives. A lot of improvisation and often not even altruism nor good intentions.

I cannot really say that other religions, cults, New Age groups & co are any better!!

[bansy]

"there's always benefit in Drama", etc .

I like this phrase very much.

Basically, it says Drama is accurate.

Does this thus also mean that everything mentioned and uncovered about the BKWSU in this forum is also accurate ? As this this is also enacting out drama ? :P

[sarah]

I have always known that I am a soul. I just did not know that you used the word 'soul.' I think that I have always felt that there was something within that was really who I am, regardless of my aging and decaying body. In meditation, it has always been I place I retreat to and go beyond. It is the fact that I am a soul and have always been a soul that gave me the confidence to leave the BKs. I am a soul and will always be no matter where I go and I don't have to join any centre or movement, or wear any particular uniform, to know that.

[fluffy bunny]

It is the fact that I am a soul and have always been a soul that gave me the confidence to leave the BKs.

I would watch out, "I am a soul (TM)" is the property of the BKWSU and you do not have a license to use it without their permission.

[joel]

I believe we cannot say with any objective certainty whether the soul exists, and that such absolute knowledge is not essential to leading a fulfilled life. I believe that people's experience of the soul does exist, and that it behooves us to accept them and their varieties of religious and spritual experience as legitimate.

[mbbhat]

OK, back to basics. The SOUL. Who told you so ? Was it from someone else who had just done lesson 1 (because Murli says you can be a teacher after 1 day, so you tell everyone he or she is a soul).

Why do you believe it ?
What made you believe it ?
Is it true ?

Dear Bansy,

The proof for the existence of soul is given in the file self realization. It is a file that can be downloaded and is in this website itself. If you send me a mail, I can attach the text file. My email ID is [email protected]

"there's always benefit in Drama", etc.

I like this phrase very much. Basically, it says Drama is accurate. Does this thus also mean that everything mentioned and uncovered about the BKWSU in this forum is also accurate ? As this this is also enacting out drama ? :P

Yes, definitely. This will help some to become BK. Weak BKs may leave the knowledge. So filtering will take place automatically. Anything in Drama is good for those who really feel or have faith in Drama. For others also, there is no bad from this forum as absorbing positive or negative is left to individual.

[sachkhand]

AUM Shanti.
I have explained about Soul, GodFather and Humans in my post " ShivBaba in Nutshell" in the BK Splinter groups. Please read it if you care.
Thanks.
Sanjeev.

[bansy]

Thanks for all the replies.

Don't worry, I have my own thoughts on this subject but I am going to leave it open.

After all, its all about a question of faith.

[chai bhai]

Sarah said: I have always known that I am a soul. I just did not know that you used the word 'soul.' I think that I have always felt that there was something within that was really who I am, regardless of my aging and decaying body.

Hello sarah. I feel similar. I always knew, even when I was small, that I was something else and not this body. to the stage where I would sit on my bed and try to leave my body, because if felt it would be such a nice experience. and I knew it so well. I also felt that god was like a star and not omnipresent like a lot of people in the 1970's were saying. It seemed like a crazy idea to me. How do you ever explain the soul? Echkart Tolle (if you do not know, he wrote a very good book called 'Stillness Speaks'. He is a bit of a modern day spiritual philosopher. But I find he explains spiritual dharna things so well, and things around the ego too).

Anyway, he says that words are only signposts pointing towards something. They are not the thing itself. And I feel also like that. We can talk about things and sometimes we can get stuck on what a word means or doesn't mean and get into the nitty gritty of it that way. experience and silence are the ways that personally I know I am a soul. And also, sometimes I can feel me (the soul, the one that does not think but is aware) watching my own mind. The soul is highly conscious and aware and it uses thoughts and personality traits to express its state. That is what I feel when I am in that state. But what a thing to try and explain by typing and pressing 'submit'!