Remembering Shiva

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fluffy bunny
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Post by fluffy bunny »

RaviRaj wrote:Our heart is missing here, just trying to understand Baba's Gyan with logics. True enthusiasm about Baba and his knowledge comes with heart ... But so far, despite these efforts, I personally see that the outcome is 0. But still I hope our BK Brothers and Sisters will soon understand ‘who is our Father-in-practical?’

RaviRaj,

firstly, I agree wholeheartedly. The most successful, inspiring PBK posts have been when someone has simply shared their heart or experiences. The head stuff does not work so well ... actually, I must qualify that so it is not misunderstood. We used to have a thread called "Why I left Gyan" or "Why I left the BKWSU". I think it would be good for you to do so in the PBK world and, for example, share your experiences Atma in the same manner. That way, when someone that was in your position reads it, they will say, "I feel like that too!" and be encouraged to question and move on. Please start it and please go out and record other PBKs experiences and report them back here. There must be many PBKs that do not have a computer or internet access.

And please remember that this discussion is not just passing in the wind. It will remain on the internet for the world to see and will become a resource for anyone to judge and learn about PBK. Indeed, it is unique in that it is pretty much the only place where BKs, PBKs and other Brahmin souls can meet and interact and the PBKs are seen in a dynamic light. Others will be made to question and led to judge. for many BKs, it will be the first time they hear or read of PBKs as the centres and Senior sisters suppress PBK-ism. So you never know what seeds are being planted in whose minds. Additionally, if we critical Brahmins thought there was no value in PBK, we would just ignore or exclude you. I too voted, with bansy and others, for the PBKs to be included in this forum because I believed there was some value in their position and experience. However ...

It is also a useful environment for dharna. To prove and experiment with attitudes and approaches. A gymnasium, if you will. You see both amongst BK, PBK and ex-BK successful and unsuccessful dharna. I think it could be useful for those PBKs that are not living near others and, perhaps, the PBK ought to have their own forum for PBKs only where they can discuss amongst each other without "outside" examination. It is good to interact but it is also good to retreat and be amongst friends.

A number of thoughts come about what would be appealling to me, or to put it in other words, what I would find convincing of someone else's "truth".

a) "Respect your enemy". Knowing the other Brahmin souls that support this forum, I cannot think of one that is not ready or capable for the deepest of Advanced Knowledge [ BTW, whereas "Advance Party" has a meaning, "Advance Knowledge" does not sound so good in English, Advanced Knowledge does ]. PBKs might encouraged to think that they are more advanced than BKs but no one can tell their role or number nor that of another. the individual you are discussing with might be seeing something you have not yet. Many ex-BK say they are ex- not because they are ex- but just because they became sick of the hypocrisy, status seeking and subtle dishonesty of the BKWSU. They does not make them stupid. Indeed, it might prove them to be very acute in their vision and courageous to walk away where there is no alternative support system, e.g. PBK.

b) Village voices. As I have said, I would love to hear from those voices we are never likely hear personally. For many, travel to India will be impossible. This is the only medium through which we will meet. I would love to see and hear from the Kunyas and Matas that your Baba puts to the front. If he values them, then you ought to do something to support and promote them. I'd like to read what the other classes you study are not squabble over the BKWSU's left overs.

c) Murli bashing is for losers. As John and Andrey point out, for every Murli point in favour, you can find another to contradict it. It is not a winning, convincing approach. It is not even "living religion". This is a lesson that we should learn from Bhakti and, to be honest, I think the PBK's weakest point. I understand the need for those that come from a BK background, but to take, twist and extract out of context tenuous single sentences from a limited selection of already edited Sakar Murlis in order to try and prove anything is not working from what I see. [Now, revealing the BKs changes, that is another matter ... fine, keep advertising the anomalies!]

d) If Truth is Truth it ought be strong enough to stand on its own two legs, ditto Virendra Dev Dixit. If he is "God's" medium it should become plainly obvious from what he is saying and doing now. He does not need "proving" from any "past the sell-by date" Murlis. To be honest, he does not even need to be God's medium to be a good man with a valuable gift - and even if he is only the best de-programmer for BKs, then that is good enough. Likewise, embrace your enemies. Encourage the PBK critics to some forward and air their views or be honest about past mistakes so that others might learn. Don't try to re-write them.

e) Give up fighting BKs. I do not mean this in this context, I mean it universally. Do not waste any time fighting, criticising, convincing, countering BK. Just let them be, walk away, get on with your own work. To spend 90% of one's energy arguing over 0.1% of the issue is not wise nor economical.

f) Work together with us to provide as much information openly for individuals to decide for themselves. Look at the growing list of Murlis http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.p ... akar_Murli and Gallery http://www.brahmakumaris.info/w/index.p ... :Newimages. I think that we all agree, ego will always lose, so put some energy into cooperative work in which there is no dispute. If you speak Hindi and English, you are in a unique position to benefit the World translating original Murlis etc. I understand the PBKs have almost the whole 5 years.

g) Document the history. As above, in my opinion, the way to "win" over the BKWSU, and the rest of humanity, is to expose it for what it has done not and by doing what it should be doing better than it. We all know the BKs are involved in a big re-write of the Yagya history and the Knowledge. It is no secret any more. Learn a lesson from the lokik world and document this scientifically. The weight of evidence should be obvious.
  • Original Murlis, Yagya History, BKWSU legal and financial details, any corruption, personal experiences of centres.
At present their situation is powerful because the world only see the public face they control. This should not be done in a bitter way but a compassionate way to help them. After all, it is not the external form that requires changing but the internal form. By researching these, you will find that there are other allies out there who agree and are willing to support you.
  • How much money does the BKWSU have in India? Is it a registered charity? Does it run registered businesses etc?
h) Document other's experiences. Do not go shooting your mouth off about 'absolute truths' before you have spoken to 108 other Brahmins souls ... ask question first, shoot later. Actually, this show great respect for the other, ask, ask, ask ...

i) Lastly, be confident enough to think outside of the box. I find Brahmins in general afraid to think outside of very strict limited thought patterns. In the BKWSU especially, where Knowledge is limited and "infantilism" is encouraged, new Brahmins are not freed but trapped afraid to think and question. They spend a lot of energy trying to conform for the sake of approval. Questioning is disencouraged. The proof of truth is not the truth it self but the ability to take that truth and apply or engage it with or to any situation and any source. Keep learning and exercising your mind. "Knowledge" is a bridge over which to meet others, not a wall to separate, bricks to build a castle out of ... nor a stick to beat others.
-----
  • Just to refer back to the thread, is Virendra Dev Dixit considered to be absolutely perfect now in the way the BKWSU believe Lekhraj Kirpalani/BB was?
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Post by john »

Atma wrote:ex-l, John and Bansy I complete understand how you must feel as John mentioned once bitten twice shy.

Actually I wasn't speaking for Bansy and ex-l, as you can see, they can eloquently speak for themselves. The PBK part of this forum has the title ;
for those interested in PBKs related matters, to discuss them with PBKs & others.

It is not 'proselyting to the poor lost souls'.

This is not a PBK forum, it is a forum where they are allowed and invited to post and discuss PBK matters with other users. Do you go into other homes and say 'do this, do that' and when they don't, get upset?

OK ... a PBK agenda may be to come here to do service, but I think that is more effectively done in a subtler more patient manner, not with battles or battle attitude. I think newer PBKs should take a leaf out of the book of more seasoned PBKs that post on here. By being pushy and defensive are you doing service or disservice?
  • Disclaimer ... Atma I am not aiming this post at you.
Though you say
It really is up to you to move forward with this or simply drop it

Sounds like 'stop asking questions'. If you were here to discuss the knowledge then I don't think you would have said that?
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Post by atma »

Bhai John,

You have made many good points.

One point even I had to understand is that a pbk is a pbk (even in history there has been many whose children overthrew the king to obtain the kingship). So there are all kinds of seeds but please do not mistake or take our actions for that of Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit), but even saying this, his role is very unique as well. We might not want to get to involved with these tasks, for they are very special and only he can do them.

You have to understand that Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) does not ask for any financial gains from anyone nor does he require any status or fancy exhibitions. This is so unique for me, I have never came across this. He does it for the betterment of society. He is very ordinary but extrodinary. It is all quite amazing when I think about it.

atma
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Post by john »

Raviraj wrote:But so far, despite these efforts, I personally see that the outcome is 0.
Some souls will understand in a second, some will take longer, maybe months or years. Are you only interested in doing service for those who understand in a second, easily?

You make a few posts then expect to make changes in souls. ArjunBhai has made closer to 300 posts with not one complaint or patronising comment.
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Post by arjun »

Sister Bansy wrote:The PBK knowledge, at least for me, satisfies more the taste of the wilder, thinking and extracting mind and intellect, but purity is not measured by such spiritual intelligence (I don't think so at least). How is the "numberwise" in the rosaries measured, by purity of the soul or by the intellect of the soul ? If a BK loves his or her method of remembrance, PBKs need not to try to disprove the method, since the BK intellect is not the same as the PBK, but the BK purity could be much higher. And vice-versa.

So whilst PBKs are explaining their form of remembrance via the Chariot of Veerendra Dev Dixit, they should try to answer is why there are ex-PBKs and off-shoot parties such as the Vishnu Party. If the Gyan and remembrance is rock solid. We haven't heard from these ex-PBKs.

I recall I voted for PBKs to be included in this website because XBKChat excluded them and thus the picture gave a limited view. That was not so long ago. I see this again. Yoo hoo, ex-PBKs where are you ?
Sister Bansy,
Om Shanti. What you have written in the first para above has been acknowledged by ShivBaba Himself (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) in many of the clarification Murlis.

As regards the numbers in the rosary ShivBaba says it is on the basis of faith. Faith is also varied, like on Father, on self, on drama, on the divine family, on knowledge, etc. And even in that the faith on Father counts most. And this faith on Father does not mean faith on a point of light. If faith on Father means faith on a point of light, then people of all the religions qualify in that because everyone believes in God. But faith on God means faith on the Incorporeal+Corporeal. Since nobody has any doubt on the incorporeal, the basic differences of opinion arise over the corporeal Chariot of the incorporeal.

And that is how the various parties have emerged from among the PBKs. All the Ex-PBKs still acknowledge the power of the advance knowledge and its ability to inspire souls to think and churn, but they waver when it comes to believing the corporeal Chariot. They feel he is sinful/licentious.

As regards inviting the Ex-PBKs to this forum, I have no objection. In fact I would welcome them. Since most of the new chariots of Shiva that have emerged from among the PBKs are themselves highly educated (I don't know how many are computer savvy), they can even come over and discuss directly. One of the new chariots is a scientist who has probably worked in an Indian space agency and two other candidates are rich advocates/Chartered Accountants. I am not aware of the qualifications of the other chariots. Since many of them might not be aware of this forum, they might not have stepped into this territory. But I am sure that as soon as they come to know of this they would not lose the oppurtunity.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Post by fluffy bunny »

arjun wrote:And that is how the various parties have emerged from among the PBKs. All the Ex-PBKs still acknowledge the power of the Advanced Knowledge and its ability to inspire souls to think and churn, but they waver when it comes to believing the corporeal Chariot.

Since most of the new chariots of Shiva that have emerged from among the PBKs are themselves highly educated (I don't know how many are computer savvy), they can even come over and discuss directly. One of the new chariots is a scientist who has probably worked in an Indian space agency and two other candidates are rich advocates/Chartered Accountants.
And these individuals absolutely believe that Shiva is entering into them and talking like they say he did into Lekhraj Kirpalani !?! Or do they have a different concept of what God and Shiva are like howiemac discussed?

We should know what this experience is that they claim to have had, including Virendra Dev Dixit. It could be Shiv, it could be another high soul or ex-BK entering them [as in second birth Brahmin from previous life], it could just be an "enlightenment experience", it could be that what really is God is something different from what we understand - even if Virendra Dev Dixit or BB is our spiritual guide to the final destination. I find it fascinating to think that someone has the courage to say that a personal God is in me ... but then depressing if they go to bend the Murlis to try and prove it. Why not just be clever or wise or helpful? In the West, they would prebably be treated by the doctors for having a mental disorder.

At least if this Chariot is a rocket scientist then we might receive an answer to those eternal questions about the flag on the moon and the nature of Destruction ... !!!
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Post by john »

Arjun you are like a breath of fresh air.
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Post by bansy »

Arjubbhai,
Thanks for your clarification.
arjun wrote:As regards the numbers in the rosary ShivBaba says it is on the basis of faith.
Arjunbhai and everyone,

The following post is a bit off-topic but see it as a time-out/break:

Yes, I agree that it is down to faith, whatever the religion or belief. I have no qualms with PBKs but more curious as to what the main objective PBKs take away from their learning and bhatti in Kampil. What type of experiences and insights and feelings. PBKs have been around less longer than the BKs. Yes, churning the Murlis is central, and we all understand that it is important if not most essential to "Give the Father's Introduction". I know this is just a website and there are limitations for PBKs to be able to express this, but as we can all see, other members have been drilled into being given His introduction, and it often seems that it is the only dharna being practised, though this cannot be true. If in the Murli every day, the Father were to tell his children to give His introduction, then I am happy for PBKs to repeat it each day. However, on this website, maybe once or twice is enough, and occasional reminder, Father tends to speak like that.

The posting of Murli and dharna points are refeshing and give new thoughts. These points have embedded feelings because they are God's feelings. Non-PBKs may not grasp their full meaning as haven't taken the Advanced Course or bhatti in the presence of ShivBaba, but He has chosen specific points which are suitable for non-PBKs and so do service to this group of souls. Though the points are also targeted for PBKs too. I feel dharna discussion is one of the most effective ways to bring souls together, one may not always agree to hear what others say due to our different intellects, but to be unlimited is to be able to encounter all types of situations and remain stable. Mercy and compassion and respect plays a large part where souls differ.

I have good relations with BKs, not because they are "BKs" as such but because I treat them as just souls, and likewise the same treatment with soul acquaintances of other various religions, non-BKs, non-PBKs. The relationship is mutual. I also feel I would be friends (the phrase in the Raja Yoga world "sisters/brothers") with PBKs, not because they are PBKs, but they are same as me and are within my company. Good company is important. (Of course the best company is right next to ShivBaba (Virendra Dev Dixit)/BapDada (Gulzar Dadi), hence His constant reminder for all of us to remember Him wherever we are, ...remembrance is curently being discussed). Good company does not need labels. I look for unlimited good company, practically. That's just my choice. Father asks us to see all souls as pure. Which means looking at oneself too. The soul is still the same soul pre- or post- Raja Yoga study, there actually is no need to add BK or PBK to one's image, it can seemingly feel very body-conscious because it is reminds oneself of something which you know you are already. I don't think God takes sides. Does one wake up and say "I am a BK Tom" or "Good afternoon, PBK Dick" or "Good evening, Christian Harry", etc. The terms BK, PBKs, etc are used only for referencing.

There are sensitive souls, Raja Yoga is "highly charged" and brings out the best and worst in people, it does in me at least.

The above paragraphs are not targeted at anyone or anygroup specific, but to all of us including myself who need to bring ourselves closer together. Unity. I quoted something from Gandhiji earlier because he tried to unite a country. Why mention him in the Murlis. Can a PBK bring a soul from the outside, raise her or him as a BK ? Can a BK do likewise ? Father has given us the means, so we should be able to do this. Maybe Shiva is speaking from within both camps, but we have to listen more carefully. What does "Father of Humanity" mean. Or maybe I am totally wrong, God doesn't want to have unity, just his chosen few to start the new world, and the rest of the other souls just go into the recycle bin. Nature will help in His work to empty that recycle bin.


OK....we can go back to the topic, thanks for passing by ...
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How to remember ShivBaba

Post by shivsena »

Dear john Bhai.

Again you have brought up a very relevant and most important topic of "how to remember shivaba????--and what is the correct way to remember ShivBaba to burn our sins??--should Shiva be remembered as a point of light in Paramdham???---or in brahma's body when he was alive???---or in brahma's subtle body when he is a subtle angel in the Subtle Regions after 1969---or as per advance knowledge in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit as a point of light-----as our intellect matures with time and as the shooting period progresses---our interpretations of various Murli points keep on changing--and so did the rememberence of ShivBaba----so there is no guarantee that the method of rememberence of ShivBaba may not change in the near future---it very well can----for the simple reason that even though the PBKs are remembering Shiva as a point of light in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit--i find that instead of becoming divine(after burning the sins) and being united as one divine family the whole pbk family is also undergoing the same fate as the bk family ie it is being split into 9 groups---so i am having my own doubts as to what is the final method of rememberence which will finally burn our sins and transform ourselves into divine beings------

Also if we try to remember Shiva as a point of light in Virendra Dev Dixit's forehead--then again there is nothing but confusion---as there are 3 souls--bindis(points of light) in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit ie Shiva--Ram and Krishna-------so my dillemma in remembering Shiva as a point on Virendra Dev Dixit forehead is that i am not sure that which of the 3 points-(bindis) i am remembering--and how do i know that it is only Shiva i am remembering and not the other two---and i am not making any progress transforming myself when i self-assess myself--------this is my dillemma------can any pbk please throw some light on this fact and share his views on how he remembers ShivBaba and is he making any progress by doing so.


OK Om Shanti---shivsena
===============
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Re: How to remember ShivBaba

Post by fluffy bunny »

shivsena wrote:as there are 3 souls--bindis (points of light) in the body of Veerendra Dev Dixit

Yikes!

You are saying that, at all times, there are three souls in the head of the body we know as Virendra Dev Dixit?

That being;
  • • Supreme Soul Shiva
    • The Soul previously known as Lekhraj Kirpalani
    • Virendra Dev Dixit's own self
Is this what Virendra Dev Dixit says, or do others say for him?

Is it said that all 3 are present at all times? If so, Murli points please and an explanation of what goes on when Lekhraj Kirpalani is channelled via BK Gulzar or BK trance messengers meet him in the Subtle Regions!
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Post by aimée »

It might be confusing and it is first place to understand who we have to remember. Personally, I have now a deep believe that I am linked to God, the point of light, in the fortunate Chariot. A point of light for me doesn't make it, because it is not a face to face meeting with the heart. Shiv is teaching, but it is to ShivBaba (both) I am speaking. But maybe it is the deepest point of churning, as Baba says (in both Chariot I think) that no one knows him as he is. To understand him accurately might be actually one of the way to the final destination...

Krishna soul ex-Lekhraj Kirpalani is on the head of Shankar in the form of a moon crescent, he is learning, the day he will become complete with full faith, a full moon, He will play the role of Jagadamba in the body of Kamala Devi Dixit. Some say that he is the soft side of ShivBaba when we meet him, it might have been explained this way in some clarification.

I think to avoid the confusion it is important to realise that it is Shiv who is teaching and that we have to relate to him, but not in the ether somewhere. When Krishna is called by the BK children, out of attachment he enters the body of Dadi Gulzar. She becomes unconscious because he is in his subtle body, akari, whatever it means, and when he is in Virendra Dev Dixit, because this one is totally soul conscious, he becomes the form of a soul, nirakari.

This is according to my understanding.
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Post by bansy »

Shivsena wrote:I find that instead of becoming divine(after burning the sins) and being united as one divine family the whole PBK family is also undergoing the same fate as the BK family ie it is being split into 9 groups-
Shivesenabhai

This has also been raised in another thread under "PBK Interpretations and Blasphemy"
http://brahmakumaris.info/bb/viewtopic.php?p=2573#2573

Could you give us your interpretation of how and what is the family being split into ?

Regards
Bansy
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Post by arjun »

Om Shanti. Shivsena Bhai had mentioned that he had recently discussed with Baba some important aspects of Advanced Knowledge including the one discussed in this thread. I happened to see one of the two discussion cds (151 & 152) that contains the discussion between Baba and Shivsena Bhai.

Although I cannot exactly reproduce what transpired between both of them, but the summary of the discussion on the issue of remembrance of ShivBaba was that the correct method of remembrance is to remember Father Shiv through the corporeal medium.
While Shivsena Bhai was emphasising that the correct method of remembrance according to him was to remember the final incorporeal stage of the soul of Ram, Baba (i.e. Shiv through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) said that it is not correct to remember the final continous incorporeal stage of Ram now, because now even he is making efforts to attain that stage and that even the soul of Ram passes through the cycle of becoming pure and impure. He is not ever pure as Shivsena Bhai contended. One will not attain as much benefit in remembering the final form of Ram's soul as in remembering the incorporeal ever-pure Shiv through the body of the corporeal medium.

I will request the nimit Sisters to prepare the Hindi transcript of the above discussion cds so that it could be translated into English for the benefit of non-Hindi speaking/knowing souls.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Post by andrey »

Revised Murli 17.1.04

"... Children it is only by remembering Me that you will become the the most elevated beings, and by imbibing the jewels of knowledge, you will become multimilionaire for your future 21 births ..."

The Supreme Father Shiva has said this through BB. He says Me. So it is about Him and not any other soul.

The rosary of 108 is the rosary of the most elevated beings. How do we get threaded in this rosary? By remembering. By remembering who? By remembering the soul of Shiva. Do we get threaded in this rosary by imbibing knowledge? By imbibing knowledge we become multimilionaires. There is a difference between remembering and imbibing knowledge and there is a difference between the result of remembering and imbibing knowledge.
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Post by bkdimok »

Andrey wrote: There is a difference between remembering and imbibing knowledge and there is a difference between the result of remembering and imbibing knowledge.
Dear soul. Om Shanti. How did you know about how to remember and what you are to remember? First of all you get the knowledge of all this things, is not it? So first comes knowledge, and only after that you starting practicing. So knowledge also is needed is not it? But purity is achieved by remembrance. So to understand you must have pure intellect, and to have pure intellect you must understand knowledge, because remembrance is also knowledge. You may know main method, but there is details also. So you must know details to perform remembrance proper. Murli have all the details in them. Murli are God's words, which He addresses to you personally.

So, you must not only remember God, but also listen to God because He is speaking with you through Murli. So of course remembrance is first, but knowledge is second. If there was not any knowledge there was not any remembrance. So remember well and also listen knowledge to remember well. Because there is manmat also. There is no manmat in Murli. There is only Srimat in the Murli. Shiva says, "Remember Me and never miss Murli classes. You must be Yoga-yukt and also yukti-yukt", is not it? Yukti are in the Murli. So read the Murli also. This two subjects are the main. Become an embodiment of remembrance and also a knowledgeful soul.

With best wishes.
BK Dmitry.
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