Karma

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bro neo
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Post by bro neo »

Good point. So what your saying is that each person is different and their capacity and definition of contentment is different? Also that it’s each person’s own responsibility to define what will make them happy and then for them to go for it? I definitely agree with that. It is each persons own responsibility, but I think that this is definitely not what is happening in our world nor will it be for a long time.

For children, it’s their parent’s responsibility. If parents do a bad job then their kid is just gona have a hard to impossible time integrating a responsible attitude towards them self and life. I think humans are hard wired to be socially orientated and most people in the world are not individuals as defined above. Most people seek the approval of their social groups and it’s the values of the group that make them who they are.

The Karma philosophy is one of the social stigmas that make a lot of people who they are, just because it is a dominate belief system within one of their social groups.

To become an individual means to break free from the bondage of other people’s design of us and to really find ourselves and emerge as our own creation. A creation which maybe based on our animal instincts, the part of us which is divine, or what have you. I think most people don’t want this at all, wither it be because of fear, dependence, or even love for and from their social groups. Not to mention its harder then hell. For some people being accepted in their groups is their definition of happiness. co-dependence seems to be what society is built on. Good or bad I cannot say.

What you said about leaving the BKs defintily sounds sound. Another way of looking at it is that those of us that left the BKs either left because of pressure we felt form other social groups, because we started to develop a strong sense of self, or perhaps a combination.
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Post by paulkershaw »

bro neo wrote:The Karma philosophy is one of the social stigmas that make a lot of people who they are, just because it is a dominate belief system within one of their social groups. To become an individual means to break free from the bondage of other people’s design of us and to really find ourselves and emerge as our own creation. Another way of looking at it is that those of us that left the BKs either left because of pressure we felt form other social groups, because we started to develop a strong sense of self, or perhaps a combination.
Ahhhhhh the awesome POWER of this Forum and its members (The Forum Posters I mean ...)! Power to the People indeed ... what beautifully dynamic points indeed. I so love the part you make about the Strong sense of self - it highlights so much for so many ...
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Post by adikarisoul »

bro neo wrote:The Karma philosophy is one of the social stigmas that make a lot of people who they are, just because it is a dominate belief system within one of their social groups.
How strange ... :shock:. Learning about the Law of Karma has been and still is for me something greatly positive I received from BK life.

As soon as I got the knowledge of karma it gave me a great sense of relief and made me feel istantly FREE as never before :P. It also helped me to get rid of a huge load of "anger" towards those people (family members, work-colleagues ...) that in the past had been unfair to me.

Karma for me is not associated with "guilt" but just with " responsibility". Every time I manage to accept the responsibility for myself and the situation I am in at that moment, it does help me a lot. The problem is that sometimes I forget the Law of Karma and start blaming others for my problems. I newer accepted that things could happen "just by chance" nor that they could "blindly depend on God's will ".

I had already read in other books about karma but the simple explanation of the karma Law given to me by my BK teacher, immediately struck my intellect. For that I shall thank him for ever.

ADI
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Post by bansy »

bro neo wrote:Another way of looking at it is that those of us that left the BKs either left because of pressure we felt form other social groups, because we started to develop a strong sense of self, or perhaps a combination.
adikarisoul wrote:The problem is that sometimes I forget the Law of Karma and start blaming others for my problems.
One of the ways I look at the above points is that for the first quote, it is not that folks left the BKs but the BKs left the folks.

And with the second point, karma is not of blaming others or things for my problems but of others or things blaming me for their problems. :P
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mr green
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Post by mr green »

Another problem with karma philosophy, I saw in the BKs, is it can create an atmosphere of apathy.

It's my karma, or it's fixed in the drama, or you should be happy that person is ripping your clothes.
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bro neo
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Post by bro neo »

I don't like the whole "My life is like this because of past lives." There is no sound evidence. What makes a lot more sense to me is that we open into life due to an equation of probability or that we come into a particular life because there is some kind of issue to wrk out or mission we are supposed to do in this plane. Then we become subjects to the law of probability until we start to develop a mature cerebral cortex. Prime factors in the equation of our early life is the social environment we grow up in and our primary caregivers.

By the time we are like 20 or 21, when our cortex is fully develop, our lives are then largely determined by what we make of it. Of course, all the programing we got from the previous years of our lives are still a dominate factor in what our lives are and what we make of it but we also become gods in a sense. We achieve an ability to change our programing, learn new ways of thinking and acting, and create a life and self of our own design.

Of course, this sense of being a god self is not only unsurmountable difficult, it is also usually adamantly abhorred by those around us. Regardless, probability, IMHO, rains as the law of the land. Some just role the dice better then others but working with sound logic and making decisions on the side of probability is how to get what we want.
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Post by andrey »

I don't think both principles of the probability and "as you sow so shall you reap" contradicts. They both work. For example we have not chosen our roles, it is like a lottery, but if you look you sow a seed and something come out of it. We do acts and there is consequence. Look also how have we created our life. There are machines - you have to put a coin so that you can get a can. The machine does not give cans on some hazardous principle.

The difference is that we now have to put a lot of coins for a miserable can and when the world is new a thought is enough to get it. Even today sometimes we happen that we think of something and it happens immediately and we call it luck.
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Post by fluffy bunny »

I just wanted to add to the discussion going on in another related thread; Raising financial questions.

What is the mechanism that by sticking money into a little wooden box at a BK centers, it somehow has a miraculously different karma reward and effect. Even if it just goes to pay the mortgage of the individual that owns that BK center building or pay for development of it?

I don't think it does. I think it binds us to the center. We are bound to where we put our money, where we invest our energy mentally. It does strength our connection with who ever and where ever we put it because of the connection in our mind. But where is the karmic calculator and how does it function altering the values of our "karmas"? Its karma is to bind us with the BKWSU center system. We give to it and we are fed by it. It become our tribal center taking the place in our minds of our family or societies' center.

Baba says, that he makes one rupee worth 10,000 (approximate quote) or on paise worth more than a millionaire's fortune ... how? Or are we just asked to take it in blind faith?
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Post by andrey »

It is the same as a coin does not cost the same for someone in need or some rich person. It depends on how we use the money.
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Post by paulkershaw »

ex-l wrote:What is the mechanism that by sticking money into a little wooden box at a BK centers, it somehow has a miraculously different karma reward and effect. Even if it just goes to pay the mortgage of the individual that owns that BK center building or pay for development of it?I don't think it does. I think it binds us to the center. We are bound to where we put our money, where we invest our energy mentally. It does strength our connection with who ever and where ever we put it because of the connection in our mind.
It also seems to elevate one's status within the ranks of the centre - especially when you give a lot more than another person who either cannot afford more or doesn't believe in the philosophy of giving as much as 'you' do.

One seems to become more of a VIP when you are able to provide more ... perhaps thats part of the 'structure' - to make a richer person feel more welome than ordinary Joe Soap ... and as a 'giver' you're kept more in the loop so to speak than the 'ordinary' student who earns a normal or average salary would be ...
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Post by fluffy bunny »

andrey wrote:It depends on how we use the money.
So ... how? You do not come anywhere near answering the question.

Another mental plug. You understood the question, how does 'Mr Karma' tell the difference and how do the BKWSU offer a better karmic deal through their boxes?
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Post by bkdimok »

ex-l wrote:Baba says, that he makes one rupee worth 10,000 (approximate quote) or on paise worth more than a millionaire's fortune ... how? Or are we just asked to take it in blind faith?
Om Shanti. There is a big difference if you share 10 dollars when you have 1000 and if you share 10 dollars when you have 20. Almost all BKs are not very reach. But they (many of them) devote all they have to God's mission. So in return Baba will make them porsperious in their next lives. Complete happiness during 2,500 years is like 10,000 rupee income from 1 rupee investments. Also there will be a lot property (houses, vimans, palaces etc) which now costs a lot of money.

Blind faith is a part of Bhakti way.

With regards, Shankar
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Post by fluffy bunny »

bkdimok wrote:Om Shanti. There is a big difference if you share 10 dollars when you have 1000 and if you share 10 dollars when you have 20.
How can "Mr Karma" tell? And how, specifically, can "Mr Karma" tell the difference between money given to the BKWSU and money given to any other good cause? So is 10 dollars to feed a starving family for a week worth less than 1000 dollars to send a Senior Sister first class to meet some VIP that is never going to become a BK?

So how does the mere fact that a senior BK decides to do something, instructs BKs to follow and collects money for it somehow magically make it the rewards worth more?
Almost all BKs are not very rich. But they (many of them) devote all they have to God's mission. So in return Baba will make them prosperious in their next lives.
That is the Bhakti ... I know the basic Gyan we all repeat without asking ... How? What are the mechanics?

I have asked the senior sisters and they don't know either. How else could they survive financially and expand if they did not mentally enslave other human beings with this stuff to work for free and hand over their money?
  • is not it just taking advantage of Bhakti sanskars and extracting money from the Hindu temple economy, and other charities, into the coffers of their kingdom?
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Post by bkdimok »

ex-l wrote:1. How can "Mr Karma" tell? And how, specifically, can "Mr Karma" tell the difference between money given to the BKWSU and money given to any other good cause?
2. So is 10 dollars to feed a starving family for a week worth less than 1000 dollars to send a Senior Sister first class to meet some VIP that is never going to become a BK?
3. So how does the mere fact that a senior BK decides to do something, instructs BKs to follow and collects money for it somehow magically make it the rewards worth more?
4. That is the Bhakti ... I know the basic Gyan we all repeat without asking ... How? What are the mechanics?
5. How else could they survive financially and expand if they did not mentally enslave other human beings with this stuff to work for free and hand over their money?
6. Is not it just taking advantage of Bhakti sanskars and extracting money from the Hindu temple economy, and other charities, into the coffers of their kingdom?
Om Shanti. I'll express my opinion in the context that BKWSU knowledge is right.
  • 1. There is no Mister Karma, there is the Law of Karma. It is one of the natural laws. The only difference is that scientists couldn't detect and describe it. Law of Karma is a logical law. Knowledge about that law exists from the Copper Age.
    As for difference between money: there is difference between fruit of spending money. One deal if you spend your money on feeding the poor. You will receive good fruit but also you can receive punishment (you don't know how they, those that that take money, will feed poor, there may be meat etc). Another deal if you feed the poor by yourself.
    The same is with BKWSU. Aims of BKWSU are much more higher than aims of other such organizations. Nobody wants to create Heaven on Earth now. So reward (fruit) of participating in this mission is very high.
    2. It depends on effectivity of cooperation with that VIP. If he will do in return a lot of service, I mean more than 1000 dollars (which were spend on him), then it is better to spend on him. It is like in economy. Investments - income. But here investments are not only money. You can spend your time on somebody and receive an income - his service to God's tusk.
    3. did not understand the question fully
    4. I guess there must be word "receive". According to the Law of Karma, when you devote yourself and all that you have to God, He starts to completely fulfill your needs. It is stage of Brahmins. They live on donations. They even did not ask for donation in the copper and the beginning of Iron. Now there are few of Brahmins, who don't ask for donation.
    5. I have another view. It is encouraging.
    6. Aim is very high.
With regards, Shankar
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Post by fluffy bunny »

bkdimok wrote:There is no Mister Karma, there is the Law of Karma. It is one of the natural laws. The only difference is that scientists couldn't detect and describe it. Law of Karma is a logical law.
OK, there has been chat now for 2,500 to 5,000 years about "The Law of Karma" (depending on whose version of history one believes). Somewhere in 1686, Isaac Newton came a long and wrote "Principia Mathematica Philosophiae Naturalis" to describe the mechanical applications of it. What he actually said was, "To every action force there is an equal, but opposite, reaction force". Not, "if you kick your dog, you will reincarnate again and someone will kick you". It was a Law of Motion only and simply meant that, e.g. if we step off a boat onto the bank of a lake; as we move in the direction of the shore, the boat tends to move in the opposite direction.

Throughout the spiritual traditions, there have been oceans of ink and forests of papers spent embellishing the concept ... which, funnily enough, includes the idea of "Lord of Karma", e.g. humans that can manipulate karma rewards merely by their voice or being whether it be Jesus Christ or Sister Jayanti.

The BKWSU teach a lightweight version of Karma and use it for social control, part of which financially benefits them. The concept of Karma has always been taught as a tool of social control by the priest caste. "Cross my hand with silver and I will take away your sins" ... "Step out of line with what I say, your your own mind ... and you sill suffer (my wrath)". So why cant we express these subtle Laws of Karma". The BKWSU is said to teach "basic knowledge", so what is the advanced knowledge of karma".

Personally, I think it is taught on the same level of "The Bogey Man That Lives Under your Bed" ... the terrible Mr Karma that is out to get you if you are a bad child. And, of course, now we have quantum physics arising that shows us that there are multiple dimensions that do not even behave according to Newtonian laws ... how does that reflect on our understanding?

We accept and adopt "Karma" as a mental plug to stop thinking and it is manipulated by the leadership to suit themselves. They take upon themselves Christ like powers to manipulate the return or rewards of karma via the "Shrimat Theorem" ... how? We are told it works, "just because it does". Is it not time that we had it explained "how?" or have it proven.

In my opinion, the BKWSU system is all about stopping individuals thinking. Janki often goes as far as to say this directly, "we do not have to think any more", and so does BapDada, "apply a fullstop to thoughts". It does so because within the system, and social order, our part is to act as thoughtless drones and channel the energy of Shiva soul/BapDada.
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