Channeling and the Psychic Dimension of BKWSU

[howiemac]

Of the two types of channelling that you mention, it seems that trance channelling is more efficient than conscious channelling. It is surprising then that God would choose the less efficient method, which as you say causes 'confusion' about where the knowledge is coming from.

God has no option. God has no language, and no understanding of the details of physical (ie incarnated) life on earth. A mouthpiece is required - Shiva needs Brahma's conscious (and worldy wise) mind to use as an instrument to speak through.

You say 'mouthpiece', but then you also say that Shiva is 'beyond words and language' - so the words come from Brahma Baba and the difficult question is in what sense are these words connected / related to Shiva? If not spoken by Shiva, is it then some vague kind of inspiration?

I say yes - some vague kind of inspiration - vague in that the the influence of the Shiva souls is mixed with the influence of the Brahma soul, and in the ideas spoken, the distinction between the two is very hazy.

BTW I think there are two aspects to religious knowledge - one is the ineffable, unspeakable - the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao kind of thing. So all religions are pointing to this, but then all religions also attempt to explain this ineffableness (why is it there) by claiming to know the metaphysical constitution of life (an example of this is the world being 5000 years old). So as soon as the unspoken comes 'down' to the level of spoken language, there are problems. Most religions are based on some kind of communication from God to man but on closer examination, these methods of communcation tend to suffer from serious flaws.

I agree with this fully. Well put :)

[uddhava]

I see the term "trance messenger", as used by the BKs, as an official role that is accepted within the BK systems. But a great many BKs will have visited the Subtle Regions and will certainly not be called trance messengers. I have been lucky enough to have had this experience myself - but cannot do it at will - but I bet there are those who can go to the Subtle Regions at will, but who are not recognised by the BKs as trance messengers.

The whole thing is so unverifiable that it has been stamped on within the BK power hierarchy to avoid abuse - people were pretending to have visited the Subtle Regions and were inventing bogus messages.

OK let me just recap - going to the Subtle Regions at will and having some encounter with Brahma Baba is called 'trance messaging'. Numerous people can do this but only a few are recognised with the official title 'Trance Messenger'. This trance messaging may or may not involve receiving a spoken message from Brahma Baba. For example on the 'Is this true about Dadiji?' thread today it was said -

Baba has said to give her what she wants, play along kind of thing.

So I suppose that this message was received via one of the Trance Messengers. In other words does receiving a message from Brahma Baba involve the recipient going to the Subtle Regions or do people get messages from Brahma Baba in informal situations, just while walking along the road or whatever? Also sorry if I have missed this but does the Avyakt Vani involve DG going to the Subtle Regions or does BapDada come down from above?

[howiemac]

does receiving a message from Brahma Baba involve the recipient going to the Subtle Regions

As I understand it - yes. And these messages are given telepathically and visually and are related/interpreted by the messenger, and hence subject to the influence of the messenger's own mind. So trance messages are considered less reliable than Avyakt Murlis.

or do people get messages from Brahma Baba in informal situations, just while walking along the road or whatever?

As I understand it - no.

does the Avyakt Vani involve DG going to the Subtle Regions or does BapDada come down from above?

Both - Gulzar's soul goes to the Subtle Regions, while BapDada takes over her body.

[arjun]

Om Shanti.
I have with me the English translation of the latest Trance Message received through Gulzar Dadiji on the occassion of Mama's Day on 25th June, 2006 at London.

The translation has been rendered by the PBKs from the original Hindi version published by the BKs.

If anyone wishes, the Trance Message can be posted in this thread. It also contains some references to the Advance Party, but for most souls it may appear to be in vague terms.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[fluffy bunny]

both - Gulzar's soul goes to the Subtle Regions, while BapDada takes over her body.

Allegedly ... I have never actually heard what she or they say she sees or does whilst trapped up there - or why she cannot see or do things.

In the old days, they used to talk about Brahma Puri, Vishnu Puri and Shankar Puri as being three realms of the Subtle Regions. Does anyone else remember or can qualify this?

My guess it was - and entirely from vague memories of unattributed conversations of that time ;

• BP - brahmins meditating, meeting Brahma, doing service
  Vishnu Party - visions of perfection, perfect self and may be heaven
  SP - 'virtual' seedstage because 'real' seedstage only took place in Paramdam

There were never any converstions or teaching about how these world fitted into widespread and commonly held beliefs about " the life after ".

Generally any such queries were dismissed with the usual, " Maya ", " Bhakti " or, " we are BK, anything to do with us is unique and superior and only lasts for the Confluence Age " ... rather than a, " we do not know " or, " we will go and look, ask and see ".

[arjun]

Both - Gulzar's soul goes to the Subtle Regions, while BapDada takes over her body.

From a BK perspective, the BKs believe that the soul of Dadi Gulzar goes to the Subtle Region where the Supreme Soul Shiv and the soul of Brahma Baba along with his subtle body enter into the subtle body of Dadi Gulzar and then all three descend into the physical body of Dadi Gulzar. But the soul of Dadi Gulzar loses consciousness of her body while the Supreme Soul Shiv and Brahma Baba's soul take over her body to narrate the Avyakt Vanis and to meet BKs.

From a PBK perspective, the PBKs have been told by Father Shiv through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit that it is only the soul of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) which enters into the body of Dadi Gulzar to narrate the Avyakt Vanis and to meet BKs. Father Shiv does not enter into her body because she is a virgin. Father Shiv enters only into the body of a sinful soul.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[uddhava]

Because of the lack of sound in the Subtle Regions, the only way "Baba" can speak (whether we are talking Avyakt Brahma Baba here, or Shiva, or BapDada) is through a corporeal body in this corporeal world

I am just trying to remember the teaching about the Three Worlds - humans live in the corporeal world, Avyakt Brahma Baba lives in the Subtle Regions and God lives in the incorporeal world aka param dham - have I got that right?

[howiemac]

I am just trying to remember the teaching about the Three Worlds - humans live in the corporeal world, Avyakt Brahma Baba lives in the Subtle Regions and God lives in the incorporeal world aka param dham - have I got that right?

yup :)

[uddhava]

OK, so is this right - in an Avyakt Vani, God comes down from the Incorporeal world to the Subtle Regions to meet Brahma Baba and make BapDada - then the Chariot goes to meet BapDada in the Subtle Regions. In the Sakar Murli, God comes down from the incorporeal realm to enter the Chariot in the corporeal realm (so by-passing the Subtle Regions). I am not sure that is right - it's kinda complicated. :? Anyway, it is possible to visit God in the incorporeal world or is the Subtle Regions as far as the trance messenger / Chariot etc can go?

[howiemac]

OK so is this right - in an Avyakt Vani, God comes down from the Incorporeal world to the Subtle Regions to meet Brahma Baba and make BapDada - then the Chariot goes to meet BapDada in the Subtle Regions.

Not sure about the exact mechanics here - whether Shiva gets involved before or after Brahma takes over Gulzar's body. It is my belief that Shiva comes and goes at will, in terms of 'combining' with another soul, and not just with Brahma Baba either... but there will be no materialisation of Shiva outwith the Soul World.

Meanwhile, Gulzar has gone to the Subtle Regions, but not to see BapDada - as I recall, she said she has no experience at all when the big show is happening - ie a blank, but I may be remembering this wrong..

In the Sakar Murli, God comes down from the incorporeal realm to enter the Chariot in the corporeal realm (so by-passing the Subtle Regions)

yes - as I understand it.

Anyway, it is possible to visit God in the incorporeal world or is the Subtle Regions as far as the trance messenger / Chariot etc can go?

I have been blessed with an experience of the Soul World myself, so it must be possible for others to go there - but whether they do, or can do it at will, is another matter - I don't know. In the Soul World we take the form of a translucent egg of red/orange light, with a point of golden light emanating from the centre.. the form of Shiva is just the same as the rest of us...

[uddhava]

I have been blessed with an experience of the Soul World myself, so it must be possible for others to go there - but whether they do, or can do it at will, is another matter - I don't know. In the Soul World we take the form of a translucent egg of red/orange light, with a point of golden light emanating from the centre.. the form of Shiva is just the same as the rest of us...

Do you mean 'Soul World' = incorporeal world aka param dham? If yes, are there souls in the Soul World other than God? And what is the difference between the Soul World and the Subtle Regions?

[howiemac]

Do you mean 'Soul World' = incorporeal world aka param dham?

yes

If yes, are there souls in the Soul World other than God? And what is the difference between the Soul World and the Subtle Regions?

I encountered several souls in the Soul World, other than Shiva - as I was there I assume that we are all "in the Soul World" at all times, in that it is just our consciousness that moves from one "world" (or "dimension") to another.... I realise this is contrary to BK teachings, but i think the BK line is a simplification.

The Soul World is a silent region of light, like the Subtle Regions, but the main difference in my experience was in the form and the consciousness - the form being an egg of light, rather than a human-shaped body of light, and the consiousness was of bliss and comfort and one-ness - and there was nothing there but the light, and the souls floating around in it - there is action and manfestation (albeit subtle - not solid) in the Subtle Regions.

[sparkal]

I think we need to keep an open mind on all of this stuff.

• Shiva is said to "incarnate". To where? or whom?

• Does Shiva incarnate into the Subtle Region at a certain point?

• Into Brahma Baba's subtle body?

Shiva says 'I am also in bondage to the drama' with regards to playing a role, the role of God/Shiva. Yet the role cannot involve taking a body. The role must be played. Who is the soul who plays the role of Shiva? Are souls having Yoga problems on the basis of their lack of undersrtanding of this being?

Is the difference between these dimensions really that great? Can the soul really come into this material dimension if it is of a spiritual nature? This pont alone could scupper this whole thread and force a restart, on the basis that we don't understand Shiva.

• Shiva can only enter a non-virgin?

I would need to understand this much more before agreeing to it. Admitedly, it is we who have to change and not Shiva. And we are to become like the Father (Brahma?). Otherwise, I do not see where it will get us, as in, seeing God as being degraded. We must let go of Shiva eventualy also of course.

Is the next natural step to say that Shiva takes birth at some point since they now have weaknesses, or, has Shiva always had weakness? Where do Shiva's weaknesses come from if that soul has never had a body / life? Why is Shiva called God Shiva if that One has weakness? What is the point? We could find someone else with weakness, lots of people even, to play the role of God.

The human soul is pure by nature, what is the big deal about being naturally pure?

[uddhava]

Is the diference between these dimensions really that great? Can the soul really come into this material dimension if it is of a spiritual nature? This pont alone could scupper this whole thread and force a restart, on the basis that we do not understand Shiva.

I for one have not suggested that we do understand Shiva or BK cosmology.

Shiva can only enter a non-virgin? I would need to understand this much more before agreeing to it.

What is the non-virgin thing - does God have something against virgins? In Christianity, God chooses to incarnate in a virgin because a non-virgin would be impure.

[sparkal]

From a PBK perspective, the PBKs have been told by Father Shiv through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit that it is only the soul of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) which enters into the body of Dadi Gulzar to narrate the Avyakt Vanis and to meet BKs. Father Shiv does not enter into her body because she is a virgin. Father Shiv enters only into the body of a sinful soul.

It may just be me but this makes little sense. I know things are in reverse with Brahmins but this seems like taking things a bit too far for my thinking. I cant find any logic in it what so ever. It would have to be explained a little deeper. (or shallower ?) :?