World population continues to grow ... BKWSU is aghast

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Post by fluffy bunny »

mr green wrote:Now the trick to this is if someone actually guesses what you're going to say, then you have to think of something else sharpish !!!.
Mental note to earnest BK; ask the Senior Sister to write their answer down on a piece of paper before answering the question ...
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Post by jim brady »

The whole BK edifice collapses on the population question (never mind the ridiculously short cycle – they haven’t got a single reputable amateur scientist to back up their 5,000 year claim). The facts are as follows:

The deity (or whatever it is) instructed (back in 1936 approx.) the movement to draw up posters with the figure of 5 billion to be clearly stated as the maximum number of souls taking part in the drama. One would expect a being calling itself God to be real, real accurate on such an issue.

The Murlis I heard, or read in the 1980s, mentioned on a number of occasions the figure of 5.5. billion – fair enough, should be taken as a more precise figure than the earlier well-rounded figure.

The 5.5 billion figure was accepted by all. It was written into BK literature, it was taught in classes, nobody ever disputed it, there was never any debate about it, "The Voyagers" story mentions the figure as well, if my memory serves me correctly.

In the early 1990's, I heard a BK teacher suggesting that the figure was 5 to 6 billion. I thought this a bit strange. Where, oh where, did the 6 come from?? In 1993 approximately, the 5.5 billion figure was reached. As we all know nothing happened and nothing was ever said. The BKWSU made no comment on the matter. It just slipped by apparently unnoticed.

Now, 14 years later, I hear that Murlis have been altered to now show 6.5 billion. A classic tactic used by all these "End of World" groups. When deadlines come and go, keep moving the goalposts, the followers are too far gone to notice or to care.

Why do present BKs not make an issue of the blatant population anomaly and create a stir? Why do they not walk away?
  • 1. Most are unaware of the altering of figures by the "divine" and his minions
    2. People's "stages" are at stake (stage – word used to describe a person's level of confidence in the philosophy, can be quite fragile and brittle at times, if one’s stage is weak and under threat then the person is more vulnerable to Maya (delusion) which of course brings million-fold punishment and loss of inheritance etc. All your hard work and intense efforts can be lost in an instant. Fear of leaving, of drowning, of punishment, of losing everything is way too great.
    3. Those who have been in the organisation for 10, 20, 30 or more years have gone too far to turn back now. More than half a lifetime, for some, has been invested, too many bridges have been burned. Too much money has been donated to the yugya. Careers have been largely abandoned. Just think of all the people that you suckered into following your lifestyle. Half a life time is a loooooooonnnnnngggggg time. If you joined the BKs in your early twenties, then apart from childhood, almost all your life has been BK related
    4. A huge social network and support structure has been built up over the years by those in the movement, extremely difficult to walk away from and start all over again, the sheer embarrassment of it all.
    5. Newcomers must not hear of these irregularities as they would never fully commit, it’s difficult enough to get people in the door in the first place
    6. For years BKs have looked down on other faiths, they know the huge inadequacies of other religions, they are very well informed as to what’s out there. I would imagine that it is most likely that ex-BKs simply become agnostics when they leave, mainstream religion has no appeal.
The unofficial tactics used by Seniors when people start asking awkward questions have been a mixture of the following:
  • 1. Be evasive. Ramble and waffle your way out of it. Wear them down and wear them out.
    2. Embarrass them into silence
    3. Change the subject
    4. Make the questioner feel that these types of questions have been asked and answered before
    5. Make the questioner feel that these types of questions are childish
    6. Make the questioner feel that they are a nuisance, that they lack intelligence, that they are stupidly asking the same old questions, all very subtle
    7. Tell them to go to India and ask Baba (fat chance)
    8. Tell them to meditate on the question and maybe Baba will give them an answer
    9. Tell them to ask someone who is more senior (usually not available, doesn’t actually know or doesn't really care)
    10. Encourage them to get working on their dharna and take less sleep!
    11. Make them feel that they are too inadequate to understand the esoteric nature of the answer, one day they'll get it
    12. Only encourage question and answer sessions on waffley issues
    13. Make them feel that the question is quite trivial and that there are much more important things to discuss.
    14. Take a traffic control break
    15. Tell them that they think too much !
    16. They don't feel they have to answer to anyone, sheer arrogance.
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Re: 6.5 Billions and rising ...

Post by abrahma kumar »

According to the International Programs Center, U.S. Census Bureau, the total population of the World, projected to 07/03/07 at 09:50 GMT (EST+5) is 6,605,556,807

Wondering whether the International Programs Centre, U.S. Census Bureau has a database of these projected figures so that we can actually "stick a pin" at those points in time when the population of humankind overshot God's (or the BKWSU's?) versions regarding the number of human souls? Since jimbrady brought our attention to this the world population has grown by 17101004.

While not wanting to appear a number conscious anorak would it be safe to conclude that this topic will NOT instigate any of the following:
  • (1) A BKWSU directive (revision?) along the lines of: That 6bn was/is symbolic figure only.

    (2) The BKWSU to drop ALL references to the number of human souls in the Murli, 7-day course and whereever else it may be stated or alluded to as part of BKWSU teachings.

    (3) The BKWSU students called to participate in Yoga bhattis dedicated to "inspiring" shudras to spontaneously break-out into non-procreational sexual activity. (Any guesses on the "critical mass" of human of souls required to practice this so that the world population stays below 7bn? (death rates taken into account as well)

    (4) A pandemic upsurge in the popularity of BKWSU Raja Yoji lifestyle. (any more likely than improbable (3) above?)
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Post by fluffy bunny »

Its a perfect and wonderful example of BK social control in action ... that subtle put down by a senior or center-in-charge, about being "number conscious" instead of "Baba conscious", is like a shot gun pointed between the eyes of a junior BK saying, "stop ... do not enter ... turn back".

Usually delivered along with a just ever so slightly condescending nervous laugh from the assembled more senior BKs.

Science and Research: Geological Time Clocks by BK Julian Boles, (Director General of British Gemmological Institute, UK), dated 1983 in which Darwinism was already crumbling.
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Post by joel »

ex-l wrote:Its a perfect and wonderful example of BK social control in action ... that subtle put down by a senior or center-in-charge, about being "number conscious" instead of "Baba conscious", is like a shot gun pointed between the eyes of a junior BK saying, "stop ... do not enter ... turn back". Usually delivered along with a just ever so slightly condescending nervous laugh from the assembled more senior BKs.
A lotus-like life filled with the nectar of knowledge being a superior goal, and to them more tangible, "if you don't like Godly love of imperishable laddhu than why are you even asking about 5000 years, and if you are filled with that love, then how can it be a question?"
Science and Research: Geological Time Clocks by BK Julian Boles, (Director General of British Gemmological Institute, UK), dated 1983 in which Darwinism was already crumbling.
Nice find! Yes, we had to bend reality to be able to believe that we were that extra-privileged group meeting God Himself through this one Sindhi man as we did 5000 years ago.

All those old Confluence magazines! Easter Island, Velikovsky, speculations sustained by belief and mania.
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Post by arjun »

Om Shanti.

I normally don't peep into the ex-BK section, but after a long time I saw this section and found Jim Brady's post interesting.

It is my guess that the possible reason for not mentioning the correct figure of world population by ShivBaba, in the Sakar Murlis narrated through Brahma Baba, could be that doing so would mean that the Iron-Aged world is going to exist for many more years, while ShivBaba had been declaring since the beginning that the destruction could take place any time. Suppose, when the population of the world was 5 billion and if ShivBaba had announced that the population would finally reach 7 billion. Then everyone would have slept in a slumber of body-consciousness or would have gone to enjoy some holidays to return when the population would be 7 billion :D :P :lol:.

Just as ShivBaba did not give any exact date of Destruction, He might not have mentioned the exact figure of world population to keep His children awakened. Otherwise, would we children have agreed to remain celibate/follow Him for 100 years? :wink: 8).

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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Post by jim brady »

So GOD tells LIES??? Is that it Arjun???
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in a slumber of body-consciousness the population kept risin

Post by abrahma kumar »

Thanks Arjun Bhai, your feedback is interesting. jim brady's questions seem reasonable.

The cheeky chappie grins in your post i take with equal lightness, but if i was a conspiracy theorist - with a compulsive suspicion disorder - i might wonder at how smoothly you/we slot into the 'covering-up for God' mode. But is it God we are covering for or is it the BKWSU who's ass we are stepping into the line of fire for? so what if "Iron-Aged world is going to exist for many more years"? Who said this is the Iron Age anyway?

We all know the answers, do not we? No? Looking around at the present world condition blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah We surely do not want more of that do we! And so the blessed Cycle turning around to the Golden Age as it will each and every Kalpa gets dangled in front of us. I could go on but in essence I could have said all of what you just said and i know you could say more besides. But every answer seems to make God appear elusive, always slightly put of reach. Truth is Truth or there is NO Truth.

And i look at your post again arjuna and what do i see implied? That if God told the truth "everyone would have slept in a slumber of body-consciousness". Is there a putting-down of oneself contained in that oblox? And since nobody wants to be a Kumbhakarna we snap upright alert and full of attention and intent that our Godly student life is lived more "accurately".

Opening ourselves up for more programming? Who knows. I will never fight another man over what he wants to believe.

Nice chance for me to think in free-fall :P :P . Thanks arjun.

... and now from the slumber of slumber of body-consciousness why do not i sing. According to the International Programs Center, U.S. Census Bureau, the total population of the World, projected to 07/04/07 at 09:43 GMT (EST+5) is 6,605,767,387
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Post by arjun »

jim brady wrote: So GOD tells LIES??? Is that it Arjun???
God does not tell lies. God is not just God, but also our Father. So, like any other Father of the world, cannot He adopt some tactics to keep the enthusiasm of the children alive?

For example, when one of the parents goes out of town on a long tour and if the children are very young and enquire about the other parent, he/she is repeatedly told that the other parent would come in a day or two. Using this tactics, sometimes parents try to manage even when one of them expires.

In the outside world, people study in a school or college for 20-25 years and then take up a job, get married and settle in life. Very few choose to pursue higher studies even after taking up a job or even after marriage, but here we have opted to become Godly student for the entire life, for the entire Confluence Age, which could stretch at the most upto 100 years (as per Murlis). So, definitely some tactics are required to keep up the tempo of the Godly students, is not it?

I am not defending or 'covering-up' God/BKWSU (as abk has pointed out), but only guessing that this might have been one of the reasons. I know that apparently it appears to be wrong, but the benefit hidden behind this tactics would be known only when the transformation of the world as per BK/PBK prediction actually takes place.

Have the Christians not been predicting about the destruction and reappearance of Christ in a similar way?

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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in a slumber of body-consciousness the population kept risin

Post by abrahma kumar »

Thanks Arjun for serving to keep the spirit of brotherhood alive. One of the challenges that Gyan appears to present us with is lots of opportunities for "Blue-sky thinking". Nothing wrong with that as long as we admit that bk-oblox is, as presently presented, not quite the whole picture?

Attributing this elusiveness to a benevolent Father figure serves to pull upon our emotional heartstrings. This diverts us from absolute truth into the minefiled of emotions. And then they tell me to be detached?! Sorry, detached AND loving. In other words, Arjuna, i wonder if all of this knowledge contains so many switch-backs and flips and guesses that it puts us into a slumber of a different sort than the one you mentioned earlier.

do not get me wrong, I know that some of that slumberland is self-sustained and that the BKWSU is not to blame so to speak. But attributing smoke and mirrors tricks to God seems like humankind's cleverness. For example: "Have the Christians not been predicting about the destruction and reappearance of Christ in a similar way?" And i thought that my discovering Raj Yoga was a sign that all of those Bhakti tricks were over. That finally I have found a chance to sup upon the undiluted nectar of All Relationships with One.

But instead, do i hear that Christians may have acquired that unfortunate knack of making inaccurate predictions from US? As a memorial of the Confluence Age? Is it true BKs? Did we also set the precedent for that? I wonder what the world population is right now?

Gyan is so bendy.
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Post by jim brady »

I wiould have thought it would make more sense for God to either be truthful as to the population figure or just not even mention it at all. Spoofing or lying is ungodly.
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Post by fluffy bunny »

I copied up a list of such millenarianist predictions in another forum, here; Its the End of the World as we know it ... Again.

Personally, I don't buy into "God has to be slippery" to help humanity equation. I do think that is a Bhakti projection of humans. It is similar to the other yukti beloved of both bhagats and BKs ... when an anomaly arises, it is not the guru/God/center-in-charge being wrong but He/they "testing" we poor ignorant ones.

One could politely say that it was not in fact God saying in the first place but poor, deluded Lekhraj Kirpalani. That would then suggest that Virendra Dev Dixit, the man not Shiva Baba speaking through Virendra Dev Dixit, is "politically" and spiritually enslaved to all the nonsense Lekhraj Kirpalani said.
  • Was God not wise enough to imagine this might backfire?
    How can a pure soul have "tricky" sanskars?
We have to frame this within all the bonkers predictions in Om Radhe's writing. Honestly, think about it, how they could have believed the End of the World was going to come in WWII or 1950, as they did, nevermind 1976, when only a handful of people new about it ... and God Shiva had not even been invented, I have no idea.

Imagine it ... Lekhraj Kirpalani and a dwindling number of Brahma-kumaris sitting on their own in Karachi or Abu believed that they and only they were the chosen "Divine Ones" that were saved and going to Golden Age. How many brain cells did they have each?

It was recorded that they sort of disappeared in Karachi only to re-appear reinvented at BKs later. I wonder how low the numbers on Lekhraj Kirpalani dining bill dropped to?
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Re: in a slumber of body-consciousness the population kept r

Post by john »

abrahma Kumar wrote:But instead, do I hear that Christians may have acquired that unfortunate knack of making inaccurate predictions from US? As a memorial of the Confluence Age? Is it true BKs? Did we also set the precedent for that?
Very good observation, Abrahma Kumar.

I, too, would like hard facts, not wishywashy reasons for failed predictions and other contradictions. If this is true knowledge, why is it not capable even of speaking the truth?

ShivBaba asks so much of his followers in terms of honesty and threats of Daramraj, well what about holding his end of the bargain?
arjun wrote:I know that apparently it appears to be wrong, but the benefit hidden behind this tactics would be known only when the transformation of the world as per BK/PBK prediction actually takes place
The result is an erosion of trust. With so many Shiva's popping up, which one can you really trust?
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Post by mr green »

The things we are prepared to tell ourselves to justify the fact that the Murlis have been consistantly wrong.

No offence meant Arjun, your a good chap/chappess.

You see God has not chosen to give an explanation as to why his knowledge was wrong. He has left that to us lot to interprete. Either with disgust or with a loving dedication that will allow us to swallow anything.

Come on, the Murlis were wrong ... you can only run away from this fact for so long.
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Re: in a slumber of body-consciousness the population kept r

Post by fluffy bunny »

john wrote:I, too, would like hard facts, not wishywashy reasons for failed predictions and other contradictions.
I appreciate that it is out of goodwill but I think that one should avoid making excuses or apologies on behalf of "God". We, naturally, project our own humanness upon The Great He/She/It and would be better to say, "I don't know" when we don't.

It is this whole area, of Mr God's mismanagement of the knowledgebase of his operation that really undercuts my faith. Why has no one the courage to hold to solid answers?
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